Talent issue - im confused

[Aaronl]

i saw this post on NDnation and thought it was very interesting. discuss.

http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=301552;d=this

is it the coaching?

 

[Satans Little Helper]

No you are not confused. One thing that separates it in my mind is the overall physicality and size of the LSU's team and the fact that the d can get pressure from just the front four. ND is undersized and less physical than LSU, and other teams as well. We dont have that "go for the throat " mentality, ( well Ndukewe does but he wasso far out of position he ends up hitting someone out of bounds in the first LSU offensive series and getting beat deep how many times?). There are lots of issues that "star values" dont account for. Also the COver 2 is the worst d to use with an undersized and less athletic team. I say line em up man-2-man and if you get beat it will be easy to see who the weak link/s is/are.

 

[solo]

i saw this post on NDnation and thought it was very interesting. discuss.

http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=301552;d=this

is it the coaching?

What you are overlooking is that LSU's players got coached up. The were recruited and coached by Saban. Then Les Miles brought with him Bo Pelini who is a phenomenal defensive coach. Our defensive players have not had the same level of development as theirs.

Saban's staff was better than Willinghams
Miles Staff is better than Weis' (Jimbo Fisher and Bo Pelini are top notch)

Minter might end up needing to be fired. I am actually not a Minter fan. I just don't think it is fair to judge him yet.

 

[irish4life99]

Everyone in the CFB world knows we lack depth and talent especially on the D side of the ball. Out of our entire defense only two players would start w/LSU and that's Albamari and Zibby.

Combine the lack of coaching, with the lack of talent and you get Irish defense.

 

[Aaronl]

what this whole thing tells me is the HS Player Star rating system is all BS.

 

[dylan020]

what this whole thing tells me is the HS Player Star rating system is all BS.

i would agree with you here. To me, anybody with a 3-5 star rating, their future is determined by their coaching, desire, heart, and determination.

 

[username]

Talented or not, these athletes cannot tackle. Fundamentals are nonexistant. That is all COACHING. Coaches never gave these athletes a chance. Fire them all.

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

what this whole thing tells me is the HS Player Star rating system is all BS.

Absolutely correct. The star rating are useless and used as a tool to draw people to these piece of crap recruiting sites.

 

[irishN1]

The star rating on each athlete is based on their talent,if you look at Rivals or Scout you'll find the star rating to be different or any other site? check for yourself pick a recruit and find out!

 

[IrishDon103]

Part of it is for most of the ND guys they took the highest * rating they could find, and took the lowest they could get for LSU's guys.

 

[noel fighting irish hall]

I totally agree. We have the talent to be a MUCH BETTER defensive team. The leadership to put our boys in the correct position is missing. Note how LSU kept changing their defense. They switched from a cover 3 to a cover 2 and then to a man. They brought their backs up close on or receivers and knocked them off their course. Not once did you see our backs doing anything that showed some imagination.

 

[ojo_223]

I don't think that we have all the talent yet that we need. We are moving RBs to LB. That tells me we don't have enough LBs that can play. Hopefully, that talent is coming.

 

[bbrennan]

The star ratings might not be an absolute indication of how a player will perform at the college level, but I do think they give some level of indication as to what the coaching staff will have to work with. There is evaluation that goes into these ratings and I assume they are based on relative comparisons. So if you have the same evaluators saying that these 2 guys are both 4 star players, the coaches in college will have similar talent to develop over the next 4 years.

What I would say is that our coaches, especially on the defensive side of the ball have not been able to develop or institute a gameplan that allows our talent level to succeed. They have had all year to develop these guys and over a month to specifically gameplan for LSU and have FAILED.

A final caution, these star ratings that we poo-poo for players Ty recruited are the same star ratings and judgments we get so excited about for Charlie's recruits. If a 4 star recruit from 2002 and 2003 is not a big deal now, then why are we so excited about the 4 star recruits we landed last year and this year. All I keep hearing is "wait until CW's recruits hit the field." Many of them share similar high school evaluations to the guys that were on the field this year and got lit up. This staff has had over 2 years to coach these guys. The whole "Ty Sucked" argument needs to end.

 

[solo]

i saw this post on NDnation and thought it was very interesting. discuss.

http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=301552;d=this

is it the coaching?

I don't question the coaching, though I have some doubts about Minter. Is there any question in your mind that Weis is a good coach? Now, he hasn't earned his 10 year contract in my opinion or his $3M salary (those type deals in my mind should be reserved for coaches that have won national championships for your school) , but I have no questions in my mind that he knows how to coach. Even Jimmy Johnson who isn't an ND fan mentioned that we simply don't have the athletes.

So in my mind, it can be nothing but the talent.

 

[Satans Little Helper]

I don't question the coaching, though I have some doubts about Minter. Is there any question in your mind that Weis is a good coach? Now, he hasn't earned his 10 year contract in my opinion or his $3M salary (those type deals in my mind should be reserved for coaches that have won national championships for your school) , but I have no questions in my mind that he knows how to coach. Even Jimmy Johnson who isn't an ND fan mentioned that we simply don't have the athletes.

So in my mind, it can be nothing but the talent.

The only issue that i have with CW that i cant seem to work out is that he has never been a HC before taking the ND job. That is a lot different from being a positions coach or a OC/DC. Also one thing if i am not mistaken is he is calling all of the Offensive plays. That does not leave a whole lot of time while on offense for him to concetrate on other things regarding the team, such as working over the refs, play analysis, etc. I know Mark Richt recently gave up control to his coordinators for that reason.

 

[A2McGowan]

It's a real poor carpenter that blames his tools........it's the scheme/coaching obviously.

 

[irishfan1122]

i absolutely question the coaching of the defense. Ndukwe and Zibby was out of position all night long and throughout the season. in cover 2, their job is to help over the top and play center field, cheat to the middle and use the sideline as another defender, which he failed to do all night long. also, there are very few coaches who could have done what CW has done plus the recruiting. Not too many guys can win 19 games in 2 years with that team. Kirk Ferentz is one of the highest paid coaches I dont' recall a national title for him. The defense is an absolute joke though. The system is poor, yet they keep doing the same thing. Part of it is talent, but most is how out of position they are, and the missed tackles. If they would change up the scheme up i would not be as mad, but they keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

 

[solo]

It's a real poor carpenter that blames his tools........it's the scheme/coaching obviously.

1. Weis (the carpenter) isn't blaming his tools (the players). He has more class than that. But outsiders can look in and comment on talent levels.

2. Even if the problem is the coaching/scheme, it isn't obvious. The topic is certainly up for debate.

3. Do you really think a good coach with good schemes can go compete at the highest levels without talent? To hang with the elite teams you need great coaching and great talent. You can coach a QB to read a defense until you are blue in the face, but he needs to have the mind to do it. You can coach him to throw the deep out on a rope, but if his arm strength is lacking, that pass is gonna float. Good coaching can mask a talent deficiency, but at the elite level, you need to have a certain number of studs.

 

[Satans Little Helper]

It's a real poor carpenter that blames his tools........it's the scheme/coaching obviously.

After reading this i am forced to think of the press conference where charlie would not comment on the team speed versus LSU. But the fact that what he said was not what was interesting, it is the way he said what he said. It was very angry almost, like he wanted to say what was on his mind but would not. So he was very quick, short and moved on just as quick, but there was a quiver in his voice of something deep down that made me think he realized more than what he was saying.

I believe after watching a month of game film, it might of sunk in a little that LSU was huge, physical and fast and that ND was completely outmatched. JMHO.

 

[Satans Little Helper]

i absolutely question the coaching of the defense. Ndukwe and Zibby was out of position all night long and throughout the season. in cover 2, their job is to help over the top and play center field, cheat to the middle and use the sideline as another defender, which he failed to do all night long. also, there are very few coaches who could have done what CW has done plus the recruiting. Not too many guys can win 19 games in 2 years with that team. Kirk Ferentz is one of the highest paid coaches I dont' recall a national title for him. The defense is an absolute joke though. The system is poor, yet they keep doing the same thing. Part of it is talent, but most is how out of position they are, and the missed tackles. If they would change up the scheme up i would not be as mad, but they keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

How much of a mistake is coaching and how much is talent/mentality/understanding/etc by the player?

I believethat getting beat deep in a cover 2 is not technique so much as just the player not paying attention. That is the only reason for the Cover 2, to not get beat deep and keep everything in front. Getting beat deep in a Cover 2 is the players fault.

One example from the game: The deep crossing route for a TD where Duke and TT were in the play. In the d, zibby dropped to blitz or cover the run leaving TT the LB for that side of the field as the under coverage and Duke as the over. Well Duke was beat from the get go and TT had no chance to cover up that side of the field leading to duke chasing the WR from behind and TT attempting to make a play from under. ~TD LSU~!

 

[irishfan1122]

ok i understand, but it happens every week, and its the same guys getting beat. Take them out and let someone else get beat, and if they get beat, then try something else.

 

[Satans Little Helper]

ok i understand, but it happens every week, and its the same guys getting beat. Take them out and let someone else get beat, and if they get beat, then try something else.

College football is only 12 weeks long, if the best players are on the field then they are on the field. You cannot keep changing things around through the season. It is too short of a season to do that. Things need to be in place before the season starts and you make minor personnel changes as the season goes but not major ones every game. The only person I have seen do that with regularity and success is Spurrier at Florida and somewhat with SC. I have no explanation there. I think this year was the first year where his OL was the same for consecutive games (ever!).

 

[irishfan1122]

i didnt' say every game. let someone else have a chance. Ndukwe and Zibby may be 2 of the worst safties i have ever seen. They want to play linebacker instead of safety.

 

[Satans Little Helper]

i didnt' say every game. let someone else have a chance. Ndukwe and Zibby may be 2 of the worst safties i have ever seen. They want to play linebacker instead of safety.

I beleive they did in the GT game, the PSU, UM, and MSU games. out of those, the PSu game was not really in the hands of the d so much as PSu offense could not do anything.

It did not matter. we still gave up 26 points to UNC a 1-10 team.