Still like Latina?????

NDOM

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After 3 games our offensive line is getting worse! It may not show in the "Sack" catagory but after I break it down I would hope alot of you will get off this guys jock strap.

Versus San Diego State:
Rushing: 34-113yds
Time of possession: 30:52
1st downs: 20

Versus Michigan:
Rushing: 36-105yds
Time of possession: 27:48
1st downs: 18

Versus Michigan State:
Rushing: 22-16yds (16 fucking yards)
Time of possession: 26:15
1st downs: 17


ANYONE ELSE SEE A PATTERN HERE????
 

Timugen

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But they're young and inexperienced and only outweigh their counterparts by over 20 pounds and Latina was hella good in the SEC.


:banghead2



Sorry everyone, but the continued rationalization on here as to why this guy still collects a paycheck is absolutely mind-boggling to me.
 
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NDOM

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Yeah he WAS good. all a sudden he gets here and sucks. Kinda like alot of the talent. This place is a graveyard for good talent. Weis stinks, Latina stinks, Tenuta stinks, Claussen stinks, Kamara stinks, Sam Young stinks.....Want me to keep going? Kinda sounds like the Detroit Lions.
 

SoCalDomer

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I don't really care whether Latina is the problem, Weis, any other coach. The constant calling for a coach's head is terribly old. The coaching staff choices aren't the least bit affected by our thoughts.


so why people have to keep making "fire this coach" the flavor of the week, i don't understand. Even if everyone here agreed this or that coach needed to go, it makes absolutely no difference.
 

Timugen

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The constant calling for a coach's head is terribly old. The coaching staff choices aren't the least bit affected by our thoughts.


Much like the continued rah-rah's from all of us posters on here don't improve the play of the players, so I guess we should just quit that as well.


It's a message board - a place to share our thoughts about the team, both good and bad. I seriously don't think anyone on here is so delusional as to think that what they post would actually influence the team's decisions in any way.
 

SoCalDomer

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there's a difference between discussing the team and the players, the problems with this game or another, the recruitment and so forth, compared to the constant "this coach needs to be fired."

i never said it was improper and had to stop.

but the bottom line is its asinine. there's no reason to do it, it's not beneficial, nor does it add to any discussion. if people want to keep calling for the firing of this or that coach in every response, then yes they can do so.

but i would rather be apart of a board and a fan base that is better and deeper in its discussion than every other college team and board out there that clamors for the coach's head at every opportunity.

i'm not saying weis or latina or any coach can't be the subject of criticism. but the "time to fire coach X" responses just aren't productive, IMO.
 
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Irish52

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NDOM: Everybody stinks but you. How can that be? SoCalDomer: The observation that the "O" line has shown little or no improvement is fact in relation to opening holes for very good running backs. The question is WHY? The players are every bit the physical equivalent of the teams we play; intellectually, they are at least the equal to or better than most. So the next logical progression is to look at the "o" line coach, the "O"Coordinator strategy. In my opinion, they do not measure up.
Surely, a coach with 30 years experience coaching linemen should be able to develope a strategy to stop or even slow down 1 running back....that didn't happen in the Michigan State game. I think, too, it's time to seriously consider the acquisition of a new "O' line coach unless there is remarkable improvement in making holes and pass blocking...two weaknesses that cost us games.
 

SoCalDomer

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SoCalDomer: The observation that the "O" line has shown little or no improvement is fact in relation to opening holes for very good running backs. The question is WHY? The players are every bit the physical equivalent of the teams we play; intellectually, they are at least the equal to or better than most. So the next logical progression is to look at the "o" line coach, the "O"Coordinator strategy. In my opinion, they do not measure up.

Surely, a coach with 30 years experience coaching linemen should be able to develope a strategy to stop or even slow down 1 running back....that didn't happen in the Michigan State game. I think, too, it's time to seriously consider the acquisition of a new "O' line coach unless there is remarkable improvement in making holes and pass blocking...two weaknesses that cost us games.

i don't have any problem with posts like yours. what i don't think is helpful is the one line comments like "fire coach X," and that's it. if people explain their position and then want to conclude "coach X has got to go", i may disagree with the conclusion but I appreciate that they're adding analysis to the discussion.
 

Junkhead

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SoCal, I understand why it gets old to hear about coaches needing to go. But, honestly, do you think our OL is up to par? Has it been in the past 4 years? Just wonder your thoughts about it.
 

SoCalDomer

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SoCal, I understand why it gets old to hear about coaches needing to go. But, honestly, do you think our OL is up to par? Has it been in the past 4 years? Just wonder your thoughts about it.

The run blocking this year is not better. The pass blocking is better. overall it is still below where it should be or at least where I would like it to be.
 

GO IRISH!!!

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I would like to hear from anyone on here that has played offensive line at the collegiate level. This question is from someone who has never played offensive line and is well aware of their lack of practical knowledge in this area.

Is "talent" really as big of an issue here as some are making it out to be? Or is it more practice, repitition, and coaching?

In a basketball context, talent has zero to do with free throw shooting. With decent coaching and lots of repitition, there is no reason why anyone can't be a 70-80% free throw shooter. I know free throw shooting and playing offensive line are two totally different things, but I am asking if the principle is the same.

These guys have the size. Sam Young had the ability to start on a fairly decent O line as a true freshman which produced a 1000+ yard rusher. What has happened to them? Is it their heart and emotion? Is it Latina? Is is their technique? Is it Mendoza? Or a combination of all of them? I don't know. Please enlighten me.
 

JeremyND07

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It ain't Latina...he's one of the best in the business...

Please tell me you are joking? We have not had a dominate OL sense he has been here and our OL recruits have consistantly underachieved!!!!! No one on the OL is blowing people off the ball...you cannot blame the strength and conditioning coach because these guys are freaks in the weight room so it has to be technique...which is taught by the OL coach, period! I know if I was a top OL recruit I would not be going to ND with Latina there!!!!
 

NDOM

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NDOM: Everybody stinks but you. How can that be? SoCalDomer: The observation that the "O" line has shown little or no improvement is fact in relation to opening holes for very good running backs. The question is WHY? The players are every bit the physical equivalent of the teams we play; intellectually, they are at least the equal to or better than most. So the next logical progression is to look at the "o" line coach, the "O"Coordinator strategy. In my opinion, they do not measure up.
Surely, a coach with 30 years experience coaching linemen should be able to develope a strategy to stop or even slow down 1 running back....that didn't happen in the Michigan State game. I think, too, it's time to seriously consider the acquisition of a new "O' line coach unless there is remarkable improvement in making holes and pass blocking...two weaknesses that cost us games.

Not EVERYONE!!!! Just you!
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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Please tell me you are joking? We have not had a dominate OL sense he has been here and our OL recruits have consistantly underachieved!!!!! No one on the OL is blowing people off the ball...you cannot blame the strength and conditioning coach because these guys are freaks in the weight room so it has to be technique...which is taught by the OL coach, period! I know if I was a top OL recruit I would not be going to ND with Latina there!!!!

I'm not joking in the least. Latina has had an OL made up of scraps for the last couple years. Look at the depth chart man...look at the depth charts for the last couple years. It all becomes apparent.
 

coachjohnson

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I would like to hear from anyone on here that has played offensive line at the collegiate level. This question is from someone who has never played offensive line and is well aware of their lack of practical knowledge in this area.

Is "talent" really as big of an issue here as some are making it out to be? Or is it more practice, repitition, and coaching?

In a basketball context, talent has zero to do with free throw shooting. With decent coaching and lots of repitition, there is no reason why anyone can't be a 70-80% free throw shooter. I know free throw shooting and playing offensive line are two totally different things, but I am asking if the principle is the same.

These guys have the size. Sam Young had the ability to start on a fairly decent O line as a true freshman which produced a 1000+ yard rusher. What has happened to them? Is it their heart and emotion? Is it Latina? Is is their technique? Is it Mendoza? Or a combination of all of them? I don't know. Please enlighten me.

I didn't play OL but know a great deal about it (coach the position along with some others). Most of what I learned was from days as a member of a collegiate team. But the year I was the video coordinator at the collegiate level I learned a great deal about the OLine. I shot the tight copy, which is tackle to tackle or tackle to TE. For that year I watched every snap and every play the ol played in, it was a very good learning experience from that vantage point.
I think our problems are with emotions and line play. If you watch our line they miss blocks and just don't seem to get after it. I go to these coaching clinics to all these colleges and it appears to me that they all seem to be teaching the same techniques, which tells me it's how these young men are blocking or not blocking. They are getting good coaching and technique. The Irish line are taught how to block against the 9, 7, 1, and 0 techiques to name a few. There taught to peel off and get secondary level blocks, seal people off, when to cut, when to scoop, and everything else in the world you could imagine. Repitition is key and when I was at Notre Dame practices in the spring they were getting that too. I have a DVD of the OL blocking drills I watch and run my players through the same drills. The drills they do at ND are top of the line and work on so many things that improve the player it almost seems unfair. It's so easy to want to blame coaching when you are grasping at straws trying to figure out what's wrong. There are many people that are going to disagree with me on this I'm sure, and that's fine it's only what I've seen and my opinion. But I bet if you ask the other two coaches that went with me to ND they would agree with me on what I've said. I also went to App St. and seen how they do things and it's pretty much the same thing and they get after your ass when their running. So when I watch our OL at Notre Dame I just think they got to get after it, block their assignments and play harder. For me it comes down to effort and heart. Having said that, I do think they will get there because I think they can be a productive group. Next game watch and see if lineman are engaged with defenders during a run or towards the end of a play, if they aren't engaged with a defender then their not blocking their assignment right.
 

GO IRISH!!!

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I didn't play OL but know a great deal about it (coach the position along with some others). Most of what I learned was from days as a member of a collegiate team. But the year I was the video coordinator at the collegiate level I learned a great deal about the OLine. I shot the tight copy, which is tackle to tackle or tackle to TE. For that year I watched every snap and every play the ol played in, it was a very good learning experience from that vantage point.
I think our problems are with emotions and line play. If you watch our line they miss blocks and just don't seem to get after it. I go to these coaching clinics to all these colleges and it appears to me that they all seem to be teaching the same techniques, which tells me it's how these young men are blocking or not blocking. They are getting good coaching and technique. The Irish line are taught how to block against the 9, 7, 1, and 0 techiques to name a few. There taught to peel off and get secondary level blocks, seal people off, when to cut, when to scoop, and everything else in the world you could imagine. Repitition is key and when I was at Notre Dame practices in the spring they were getting that too. I have a DVD of the OL blocking drills I watch and run my players through the same drills. The drills they do at ND are top of the line and work on so many things that improve the player it almost seems unfair. It's so easy to want to blame coaching when you are grasping at straws trying to figure out what's wrong. There are many people that are going to disagree with me on this I'm sure, and that's fine it's only what I've seen and my opinion. But I bet if you ask the other two coaches that went with me to ND they would agree with me on what I've said. I also went to App St. and seen how they do things and it's pretty much the same thing and they get after your ass when their running. So when I watch our OL at Notre Dame I just think they got to get after it, block their assignments and play harder. For me it comes down to effort and heart. Having said that, I do think they will get there because I think they can be a productive group. Next game watch and see if lineman are engaged with defenders during a run or towards the end of a play, if they aren't engaged with a defender then their not blocking their assignment right.

Thanks for your insight and expertise. That was very enlightening, to say the least. You bring up a valid point about it being emotion and just wanting to "get after it". However, that leads to the question: What do you do about lack of heart? I played basketball at the collegiate level and coached for many years. In my experience, no matter what you do, you can't coach heart. Maybe you can for a play, a series, a game, or even a few games, but ultimately it has to come from the player. What do these boys have to do? Like I said in a previous post in another thread, I was fortunate enough to tour the locker room, go down the stairs, hit the sign and jog out onto the field. Even without a single person in the stands, I was so excited, I almost peed myself! How can you not get jacked up when you put on that uni and the helmet and run out onto that legendary field in front of 80k people?

It is definitely a head scratcher for sure. If it were up to me and I was head coach from my couch, I would put in anyone who wanted to get after it regardless of talent level. I would much rather watch someone give their all and lose, than play uninspired football and win some (and lose others).

To agree with you more: Just once, after Jimmy takes a late hit from the other team, I would like to see one of the linemen go over to the guy, get in his face, and rip is freakin helmet off. I don't care if you get an unsportsmanlike penalty. I am old school. Someone does something questionable to your QB, they are going to get about 700 lbs of O lineman in their grill. I have not seen that in '07 and thusfar in '08 and, with as many times as Jimmy has hit the dirt in that time, I think they owe him at least that. Just my opinion, even though I am sure some will disagree with me.

Thanks again for your great info!
 

donnie hoss

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Attitide is a major factor in blocking. At times it's just who want's it more. I don't understand why our guys stand around and look lost at times. I was coached at an early age, if you are not sure what to do, hit someone. PLEASE.
 

JeremyND07

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I'm not joking in the least. Latina has had an OL made up of scraps for the last couple years. Look at the depth chart man...look at the depth charts for the last couple years. It all becomes apparent.

So, in our 2 Deep we have (2) Senoirs, (4) Juniors, (2) Soph, and (2) Freshman all of which are at least a 4 Star recruits! All of our starters have been with Latina for at least 3 years....the average size our starters are 6'4 1/2 315 pounds. I imagine a better OL coach could do a lot with these "scraps"!!!!

LT-Mike Tukovich-Sr-4 Star
LT-Matt Romine-So-4 Star

LG-Eric Olsen-Jr-4 Star
LG-Paul Duncan-Sr-4 Star

C-Dan Wenger-Jr-4 Star
C-Braxton Cave-Fr. -4 Star

RG-Chris Stewart-Jr-4 Star
RG-Trevor Robinson-Fr-4 Star

RT-Sam Young-Jr-5 Star
RT-Taylor Dever-So-4 Star
 

alleycat9

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great posts cj and gi!!!!!

cj i rarely if ever see someone get to the second level and far too often have to watch the rb or qb with 3 defenders on them and a couple of linemen standing around watching their responsibility hit the ball carrier. they are absolutely positively uninspired and lacking in any kind of killer instinct. i also have not seen much other than straight ahead blocking. maybe i am missing it but i never see anyone pull to the outside or even an interior trap, the kids seem to not be able to reach block to save their lives and constantly are standing straight up off of the snap.

i really do think that all of those things are fixable, and like in the real world either you fix it or there isnt a need for you.

i agree gi i would much rather watch someone with less talent and more heart. that is all i ask from the teams that i adore, be tough and show heart. i dont mind a loss, i cant stand to watch the ol and dl performances from last week.

i am glad to hear about the practice habits but it makes me wonder if these practice habits are so good and the drills are so good then why oh why can we not move someone off the line?

i have to ask, you said that app st "get after your ass when their running" was this also the case at the ND practices or did it seem a little more relaxed or business like?

i also have to wonder if there is enough intensity in the coaches, the upper classmen and the team in general.

hopefully these things can be corrected at some point. i dont know what it is going to take but it has to happen. all i want is to see a team that is fired up and takes no prisoners.
 

GO IRISH!!!

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allycat9 - You are so right! There are not many sights more fun to watch than seeing a 300+ lb lineman getting out on a full run and putting the hammer down on a 180 lb DB. How about this, I would love to see our starting OLine with Bemenderfer lined up and TE on the right side. Put him in motion and run a toss sweep to Hughes off the right side. Have Young, Stewart, and Bemenderfer clearing the way for a rambling Hughes. I would love to see a path of destruction left in their wake! I can dream can't I?
 

alleycat9

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it is a great thing to see, and its great to see those big plays coming off the edge. i always loved the option attack because of the pressure it brought to the outside on those pitches.

i have always loved the sweep, just a great play if you can get some athletic linemen out in front and get blocking by your te and receivers. i was watching the pregame for the nfl last week and they were talking about indianapolis offense. they were talking about how they are unable to run the stretch play because mannings knee wont let him get out far enough to get the rb the ball. instead they have been running sweeps to attack the 8/9 holes. now i never thought about it to much but the piece made me realize why sweep plays rarely work in the nfl. on the stretch play you have the ability to not hand off and take the ball on a roll out or simply drop back and throw it. it confuses teh hell out of the lbs and they get caught up in traffic or on blocks. that couple seconds of indecision are what makes all the difference between a gain and a loss. on the sweep they are able to read automatically and get to the ball.

i was actually quite impressed with the piece as i had never thought of it before. kind of off topic but it popped into my head when we started talking about the sweep.

it would be nice to see the edge attacked at least a couple times a game. i dont know why it doesnt happen, is it that we dont have the athletes to get out there and make the blocks? i dont know but it may help to loosen things up a little bit up the middle.
 

NDOM

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allycat9 - You are so right! There are not many sights more fun to watch than seeing a 300+ lb lineman getting out on a full run and putting the hammer down on a 180 lb DB. How about this, I would love to see our starting OLine with Bemenderfer lined up and TE on the right side. Put him in motion and run a toss sweep to Hughes off the right side. Have Young, Stewart, and Bemenderfer clearing the way for a rambling Hughes. I would love to see a path of destruction left in their wake! I can dream can't I?[/QUOTE]

Young, and Stewart havent really cleared the way at all yet so I dont think Bemenderfer will help the matter.

And you can dream because by the looks of it; this offensive line is just a bunch of oversized pansies that have no heart!!!!
 

NeuteredDoomer

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NDOM. This post has absolutely nothing to do with football. It has to do with your avatar. (I really look forward to reading everything you have to say, by the way). About an hour ago, I had a split screen with Coldplay's "Viva la Vida" on youtube on one tab, and IE on another while reading one of your posts. Batman's run teamed up with Viva la Vida would have made a perfect video. I actually saw that Batman show on T.V. Very funny.
 

coachjohnson

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GO IRISH!!! That is so true, you can't teach heart. I'm dealing with the same issues with my oline and really most positions this season. I have talked to many different coaches in the past few weeks to get more effort out of the players. Finally today the Defensive Coordinator and a long time friend and former coach told me. FUN. He mentioned having a day of just fun in practice. Everything can't be just about winning and that's we done the whole practice(after conditioning of course). We played 7 on 7 full contact backyard football, and for the first time this season I actually seen something other a lazy group acting like they were football players. We'll see our next game but the players spirits were lifted and I believe we'll be able to perform at a higher level our next game.
Another issue occured to me while I was reading what GO IRISH!!! had written. These OL were sought after by many schools and it occurred to me that maybe in some cases they never really had to put everything they have into playing because they were so dominant in high school. I wonder in some cases if they just don't realize their potential or don't realize they could go any harder. It sounds crazy but how often do you actually notice yourself screwing up or not giving it all you have. How many of you have ever been driving down the road and get caught up thinking about something and you either miss your turn or slow way down. Then all of sudden you kind of come back to reality and wonder where the hell your going or why your going negative. I've seen it happen with players many times, and sometimes it's something that they have to see themselves rather than coaches chewing their ass and pointing it out in game film. Players get complacent in what their doing.
 

coachjohnson

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i am glad to hear about the practice habits but it makes me wonder if these practice habits are so good and the drills are so good then why oh why can we not move someone off the line?

i have to ask, you said that app st "get after your ass when their running" was this also the case at the ND practices or did it seem a little more relaxed or business like?

i also have to wonder if there is enough intensity in the coaches, the upper classmen and the team in general.

hopefully these things can be corrected at some point. i dont know what it is going to take but it has to happen. all i want is to see a team that is fired up and takes no prisoners.[/QUOTE]

Leverage, most of the time our OL's point of attack seems to be to high to move someone. It seems to me that they must lower their hat and hand placement- just an opinion of mine.

When I was at ND's practices they did get after it, and in the drills DVD they get after it but it's like they don't mind hitting their own players, maybe their more relaxed in practice. I think practices at ND are businesslike but I get the feeling the players play relaxed which lets you play at a higher level. It's kind of like they have to prove themselves in practice and they can take the games off if that makes sense.

They all had a great deal of intensity when I was there watching.
 

NeuteredDoomer

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By the way NDOM, regarding your "oversized pansies" comment, I agree that they may be oversized and overfed. I watched on ESPN classic a replay of the ND-Georgia bowl game in 82 (?). The O-line looked fast and furious, out to knock the crap out of anyone in their way. They looked confident and hungry.

Another thought, based on what I have read on this forum (and I read for about 6 days straight during all my spare time before I finally signed in and posted) is that it could be possible that they are overworked and a bit tired. Just a possibility. Maybe they are being fed too much protein and carbs and not being served a balanced diet.

They need to hire a genius dietician.

And dance coach. Didn't Rockne...
 

NeuteredDoomer

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coachjohnson, you impress me as an incredibly knowledgable and caring coach. i played football and coached it for a combined 20 years. I also coached P.E. at a high school. I learned something (maybe has nothing to do with ND football) when I was teaching volleyball to a bunch of high school frosh and soph males. I was very technical and negative the first two days of the "lesson". All the athletes were afraid to mess up. On the third day, I declared we were playing "no rules volleyball", meaning the ball could hit the floor, they could take 30 chances to get the ball over the net, they could punt the ball, they could spit on it and call out their favorite hated teacher. My point of the lesson was that both teams had to keep the ball constantly in motion. If the ball stopped, the team that allowed the ball to stop lost a point. The result was that even the unathletic started diving for balls and making great plays just so that they could have their impact. Our gym had an upstairs balcony, and often the ball would land up there. The slowest of our athletes would sprint up the stairs in order to try to reach the ball before it stopped bouncing.

Story will not help ND become NC's best, but, damn, it sure felt good to tell that story.
 
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coachjohnson

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NeuteredDoomer, thanks. That is a good story too. It's great to see kids get excited about anything, and no time is ever wasted on a child. That's funny that you brought up volleyball, I had a very similar experience with volleyball and I really didn't like it becasue of the delivery of it. I would have had a ball playing the day 3 style. You probably had some athletes that found their ceiling that day.
 
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