Skip Holtz

[SoCalDomer]

I would have picked Urban but he knew that ND was going to need a lot of work so he picked a program that was already doing well and knew he could win there.

more and more info suggests he didn't turn ND down, but it was the other way around. consider all of the bad recruiting info that we hear about him. consider how he throws his players under the bus after a bad loss. the way he publicly talks to his players (He admitedly said when E. Moody transfered to UF, when he saw Moody he wouldn't say "hi" he would just say "i hope you are good.")

i don't think he would have met ND's high ethical standards, from the fans or the administration.

 

[Aerosmith777]

Well, unlike you all, I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid and here's why: What's any different between how Ty Willingham began his career at Notre Dame and Charlie Weis? Both came in and changed things, both brought in supposedly revolutionary offenses to what we had before, both got instant success and big wins, both have faded over time. The only difference is that Weis is a better recruiter and has four Super Bowl rings riding the coat tails of Belicheck, who is riding the coat tails of Tom Brady and the Patriots organization. I'm sorry, but I really don't think of Weis as an "offensive genius". If he were, our offense would never be near the bottom of the basement at any time, regardless of personnel. A "genius" would find ways to maximize what he has at hand and make it work.

Let's be clear too...I'm not throwing Charlie under the bus by any stretch of the imagination. He's a nice guy and a good coach. But, and I'm fairly certain anyone who really follows college football in a hardcore sense, would say he's not a "great" coach. If all parties involved called YOU up and said point blank "OK...we've got the green light from Charlie Weis, Bob Stoops, Urban Meyer, Pete Carroll and Les Miles. One of them is going to be the next ND coach...which one should we pick?" You're telling me you'd still pick Weis? OK...good luck with that.

My point is, Notre Dame is one of the premier posts in all of college football (although their is some tarnish on it because of the academic requirements, the changing landscape of football, the microscope the fan nation puts it under, and the media circus). Still, it being premier...and ND having the vast money and connections it has...I would expect a bigger, more prestigious hire than people like Davie, Willingham and Weis...that's all. Sure, maybe given time Weis will become our greatest coach yet and if he does...awesome! But, I see him being replaced by a big name guy more likely.

As for the similarities between Weis and Willingham, one thing I would point out is Willingham's 10-win season he began his career with was done almost exclusively with good play from the defensive side of the ball. The offensive system he brought in never really matured. Weis at least did it with offense (his side of the ball) his first two years.

As to the second part, I don't have the time or patience to read through every post on the thread so I dunno if anyone was really calling Charlie a great head coach or not. But if they were, they shouldn't. He isn't on the level of the guys you mentioned yet. I haven't given up all hope that he could be one day, but he isn't yet.

And for the 3rd part, Davie was a coordinator for his predecessor who was an ND coaching legend. That's not really out of the ordinary, when you have a great coach who retires to try to keep it in-house to pass the torch in order to try to keep the run going. It didn't work out, so be it. As for Willingham & Weis though, well, Willingham was a last ditch after the disaster that was George O'Leary remember, and w/ Weis, they did try to get a more high profile guy in. No one wanted the job. Urban went to Florida, Mike Shanahan, Steve Mariucci, and the other NFL head coaches they contacted said thanks but no thanks. Those guys didn't wanna come to South Bend when they knew they roster needed a complete overhaul and they had to do it in the face of ND's academic requirements. Its not all about money, the days when big name coaches are gonna salivate to come to ND at the times it needs to be rebuilt are over. They went w/ a guy who's been a part of a lot of NFL success and is from perhaps the greatest NFL coaching tree in history (Parcels-the only other one that could be better I think is Walsh), and is an ND grad. Charlie might be fired at the end of this year. If they go 5-7 or worse, I'd say deservedly so. But, he's still the coach. And I wouldn't say he's done nothing in his 3+ years so far to inspire at least a little confidence he can take the program to the next level. We'll see how this year goes.

 

[irishmarine]

they are not going to fire him after this year. they will give him next year as a make or break type year. i think we will win about 7 or 8 gaes and that will show promise to the alum and school. so hold back everyone on the fire cw talk. we're 1-0 be happy

 

[grantphilly]

at first when weis came to nd i was skeptical at first, then he came out and took us to to back to back bcs games and after that you couldn't have found a bigger weis fan than me. Even after last year i was still a weis fan because i knew that we were young and wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and now I'm still pulling for him and want so badly for some positives or just at least some improvement in the Irish and emotion. but if things don't get better soon holtz is who i want

 

[bluegold06]

I have gave Weis the benefit of the doubt as have all of you. I saw how Alabama used their recruiting to trounce Clemson. They too had bad recruiting up until Saban. The bottom line is, we have more talent than some of our oponents now. Last year we kept saying people had more talent than us, our kids were very young, so on. Now that excuse is gone. If Weis can't get this team up for a game against Michigan, we have out recruited them lately. Then I hate to say it, Weis won't ever get the job done. In my mind we will see this weekend. Skip seems to be able to win more with much less than what Weis now has. Weis CAN recruit, BUT can he win? Saturday will go a long way in saying.

 

[NDinL.A.]

I have gave Weis the benefit of the doubt as have all of you. I saw how Alabama used their recruiting to trounce Clemson. They too had bad recruiting up until Saban. The bottom line is, we have more talent than some of our oponents now. Last year we kept saying people had more talent than us, our kids were very young, so on. Now that excuse is gone. If Weis can't get this team up for a game against Michigan, we have out recruited them lately. Then I hate to say it, Weis won't ever get the job done. In my mind we will see this weekend. Skip seems to be able to win more with much less than what Weis now has. Weis CAN recruit, BUT can he win? Saturday will go a long way in saying.

What has Skip Holtz done??? This is driving me nuts!!!! Weis took us to 2 BCS games w/ teams that were AWFUL before he got there. Holtz has upset a couple teams that were overrated. He's done a great job, but to annoint him as the "Next One" as so premature. Let him prove himself please. Because if he comes and stinks, then what are you going to say? He's started off at ECU not as great as CW started at ND. Remember that.

CW deserves some criticism, absolutely. But nobody was saying these things when he magically turned us into BCS bowlers 2 years straight. Let him ride this thing out, then ask for his head...

 

[RKWhite]

Greatest coaches ever? I am 78 yr. old ND fan and remember the likes of Frank Leahy and Ara- they are the "greatest coaches" ever.

 

[RKWhite]

well said- agreed!

 

[bluegold06]

All I was saying is, we have more talent than ECU, BUT do you honestly think we could beat West Virginia, OR Virginia Tech? If we play the way we played against SDSU we are in for a very, VERY, long season.

 

[bluegold06]

This weekend and the next few, wiill go a long way in how far we have come or haven't.

 

[NDinL.A.]

All I was saying is, we have more talent than ECU, BUT do you honestly think we could beat West Virginia, OR Virginia Tech? If we play the way we played against SDSU we are in for a very, VERY, long season.

Those are all valid points. But CW did the same thing his 1st 2 seasons, beat teams with better athletic talent. And no, we're not beating West Virginia if we can't beat SDSU convincingly. But it was one freakin' game, and Holtz has done far less than CW. My point is just to slow down.

I said it before the season, that we're going to struggle. But I was hoping for more against SDSU, far more. Let's just hope we'll see some damn improvement this week...

 

[bluegold06]

But why do we have to continue to struggle? We are Notre Dame. Compare the last 4 recruting classes of ours to Alabama's. Alabama 2006-#18, 2007-# 22, 2008 #1, Nd 2006- #5, 2007- # 11, 2008 # 2, although we are #1 when you consider enrolled. Again why are still saying we will struggle? Expecting to struggle? Alabama and others are out whipping people. PREPARATION and COACHING.

 

[NDinL.A.]

But why do we have to continue to struggle? We are Notre Dame. Compare the last 4 recruting classes of ours to Alabama's. Alabama 2006-#18, 2007-# 22, 2008 #1, Nd 2006- #5, 2007- # 11, 2008 # 2, although we are #1 when you consider enrolled. Again why are still saying we will struggle? Expecting to struggle? Alabama and others are out whipping people. PREPARATION and COACHING.

We shouldn't, but there's a lot more to it. We can't recruit the same kids Alabama can. And Alabama lost their last 4-5 games last year. They beat an overranked Clemson team (and looked very good doing it), and struggled the very next week against a bad team. You're right, we should demand better. But I think we'll get there with this staff. And just to turn over the reigns to a KID after 1 bad year and a bad game is shortsighted to say the least...

 

[dre1919]

Charlie has taken us to two back to back BCS bowls. Did we win them? Sorry, I like going but I also like knowing we have a remote chance of ending the bowl drought. In both cases, we were going to get smoked and only optimism stood between those outcomes. Ohio State left tread marks on us and even though I knew we could play against LSU, I knew in the back of my mind they were a better team all around. That was shown. I'm an eternal optimist and loyal fan, but I'm also a realist. Charlie's done a great job with recruiting and Rome wasn't built in a day. OK, granted. But, we need to start putting some of these big teams away and definitely beating the lesser schools handily. We have not really begun to do that with his talent yet. I will say the benefit of the doubt can be extended to him for now, but there had better be big things on the horizon or I don't see him being there much longer.

My main gripe with Charlie is, why isn't the offense better? Seriously. He's not only an offensive minded coach, he's a former three time Super Bowl champion offensive coordinator. Are the football players at Notre Dame so incredibly bad that a guy of his stature, knowledge and experience can't make them better than nearly dead last in all offensive categories last year? What's up with that? I mean...think about it. Eastern Michigan was working with supposedly worse players and an offensive coordinator that hasn't even ever been in the NFL, much less won the Super Bowl three times and they were better than us. Sure, competition on the schedule plays a part...but not always. Paul Johnson at Navy coached circles around Weis last season.

I realize we "tried" to get bigger name people, but that we tried and didn't score one only points out to me we "settled" on Charlie. Not really trying to bag on the guy, I'm just tired of the empty promises of "next year is gonna be our year"...it's getting kinda old. Losing isn't the big deal...it's the lack of emotion, the lack of passion and the lack of execution and mental toughness. Where's that?

 

[bluegold06]

I like Charlie as much as the next guy, like the pass right thing with the sick kid. Taking his boy into USC locker oom to congratulate USC. He has some class. BUT, we need results NOW! Recruiting is no longer an excuse. In the last 3 to 4 years we have recruited with everyone.I hope this season and many more to come are excellent, then my worries are mute. If this season turns out like last, the recruiting this year and next will suffer and we will be stuck in a visious cycle. I a so ready to see Filer, Fleming and others lighting people up.

 

[bluegold06]

The BCS games we went to, were because we won enough games with Quinn to qualify. Being Notre Dame and the cash cow we are, we went to a BCS game against MUCH better clubs. BUT we are recruiting with those teams now, we better start competing with those teams now. Or we just say, we can't recruit the kids they can, so we can't compete with them teams, and be done with it. Don't worry about EVER beating USC, or Michigan. I say we don't settle, we should beat them EVERY year, WE ARE NOTRE DAME damn it!

 

[bluegold06]

I am done ranting now, I will be cheering as loud as anyne that we beat Meat Chicken and shut EVERYONE up. I know we have the boys that can do it. I just want them to have good enough leadership TO be able to do it.

 

[SoCalDomer]

But why do we have to continue to struggle? We are Notre Dame. Compare the last 4 recruting classes of ours to Alabama's. Alabama 2006-#18, 2007-# 22, 2008 #1, Nd 2006- #5, 2007- # 11, 2008 # 2, although we are #1 when you consider enrolled. Again why are still saying we will struggle? Expecting to struggle? Alabama and others are out whipping people. PREPARATION and COACHING.

to be completely accurate, the 2006 class lost 7 of its 28 members. Not only would it now be ranked much lower, it has the ripple effect of taking away upper classmen (06 would be juniors this year) who would have experience in the system and at the college level. Fewer numberss forces the younger classes into higher places on the depth chart and takes away from the competition those younger classes must face in order to earn a spot on the depth chart.

i'm not making excuses, nor am i taking any issue with the rest of your thoughts, just wanted to point out that one factoid.

 

[bluegold06]

I know there are other factors, but still the bottom line iis. We should be winning by now. The #1 rated prospect at any position goes somewhere and dominates. We get the #1 rated qb or whatever, we and other people say, he isn't ready give him time. Why? What is going on? I wonder what Jimmy would be doing at say Georgia or Alabama.

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

What are you basing your desire for Skip Holtz on? Is it that he is 2-0 right now and has beaten an aruably mediocre Virginia Tech team and a transitioning West Virginia team? His record at ECU from '05 through '07 is 22-17. Compare that with Coach Weis' 23-16 record (which includes the aforementioned 2 BCS bowl appearances) over that same span. Sure Holtz is playing with "less talent", but they are also playing against weaker opposition. Do they play teams of the caliber of USC and Michigan every year? No. Would our record be better if we played teams like Tulane, UAB, and UTEP year in and year out? Almost certainly.

Sure we did not play well against SDSU and blow them out by 50, but the way the Aztecs played on Saturday, they would give a lot of teams a bunch of trouble.

Give it up about Skip Holtz. He is not the chosen one. When he loses a couple of games this season, who will you want to turn to? Who says he would even WANT to come to ND?

And in regards to your recruiting class comparison - the '06 class is, in no way, still #5. Look at all the people that are gone due to transfer or injury: Reuland, Jones, Prince, Webb, Frazer, Carufel, and Jackson. That's a fourth of that class.

It takes time to build depth and we have some stellar kids on campus and more on the way. Coach Weis is building the foundation for us to be loaded for years to come!!!

 

[03euroSVT]

more and more info suggests he didn't turn ND down, but it was the other way around. consider all of the bad recruiting info that we hear about him. consider how he throws his players under the bus after a bad loss. the way he publicly talks to his players (He admitedly said when E. Moody transfered to UF, when he saw Moody he wouldn't say "hi" he would just say "i hope you are good.")

i don't think he would have met ND's high ethical standards, from the fans or the administration.

At the time ND was looking at Urban, I would have loved to see him come to ND. I agree that he probably wouldn't meet ND's High ethical standards based off what has come out lately about him.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Charlie has taken us to two back to back BCS bowls. Did we win them? Sorry, I like going but I also like knowing we have a remote chance of ending the bowl drought. In both cases, we were going to get smoked and only optimism stood between those outcomes. Ohio State left tread marks on us and even though I knew we could play against LSU, I knew in the back of my mind they were a better team all around. That was shown. I'm an eternal optimist and loyal fan, but I'm also a realist. Charlie's done a great job with recruiting and Rome wasn't built in a day. OK, granted. But, we need to start putting some of these big teams away and definitely beating the lesser schools handily. We have not really begun to do that with his talent yet. I will say the benefit of the doubt can be extended to him for now, but there had better be big things on the horizon or I don't see him being there much longer.

My main gripe with Charlie is, why isn't the offense better? Seriously. He's not only an offensive minded coach, he's a former three time Super Bowl champion offensive coordinator. Are the football players at Notre Dame so incredibly bad that a guy of his stature, knowledge and experience can't make them better than nearly dead last in all offensive categories last year? What's up with that? I mean...think about it. Eastern Michigan was working with supposedly worse players and an offensive coordinator that hasn't even ever been in the NFL, much less won the Super Bowl three times and they were better than us. Sure, competition on the schedule plays a part...but not always. Paul Johnson at Navy coached circles around Weis last season.

I realize we "tried" to get bigger name people, but that we tried and didn't score one only points out to me we "settled" on Charlie. Not really trying to bag on the guy, I'm just tired of the empty promises of "next year is gonna be our year"...it's getting kinda old. Losing isn't the big deal...it's the lack of emotion, the lack of passion and the lack of execution and mental toughness. Where's that?

As a coach you can only do much. Even as a lowly h.s. coach, I know that. CW took far less talented teams to 2 BCS bowl games they had no shot of winning. Athletes vs. student-football players. Sorry, no chance, no matter how well coached. You already have a biased opinion, I mean it it says CW is overrated at the botom of all your posts.

Yes, he has shown some flaws. He has to get this team better, I completely agree. BUT IT"S BEEN ONE GAME. First, we're predicting 11 wins, then we're firing the coach. Let us see how it plays out. Another year like last year, and I'm with you. But I just laugh at how when CW had ND near the top, PRACTICALLY BEATING USC, he was a God on the message boards. Now he's a bum. Huh?

And Skip Holtz, double huh??? What has he done that CW hasn't? Name one thing. CW had a horrible year last year, and a bad first game. Do rational Ohio St. fans want Tressel fired because they nearly lost last week to a crappy school?

As for recruiting classes, please. His first one he had like 2 weeks to get it done. I can't stand when people add that year. His last 2 were the ones that were very good.

As for the JC dominating right away argument: That's beyond stupid. It's not that easy guys. Let's see, Matt Leinhart, redshirted, and sat 2 years before starting a single game. Sanchez, SAME THING. Mitch Mustain, top QB recruit in the country, sucked at Arkansas (look at the numbers, not the wins, he was even benched), and is now 3rd string at USC! Vince Young, spot duty as a freshman. Do you need more examples? I can go on and on. It's the hardest position in sports, he's running a pro style offense, and we expect him to dominate right away? Be rational!!!

We need to improve, we MUST improve. You're absolutely right. But jumping ship and starting with a kid is NOT the answer...

 

[daytonirish]

Can we wait until Skip at least win a CUSA championship before we talk about how great of a coach he is.

 

[Praytorian]

Never being a CW fan its hard to argue with this post, but I'm afraid I have to. 1 years losing experience is not enough to change a bad team into a great team. Most of these guys are just sophmores and thats only one step away from being freshmen. We all remember what that was like.
I do think CW is a great recruiter, but not a great HEAD coach. I blame the coach more than the players, MOTIVATION is a key not in just this game of football, but in life. CW just needs to put some into his players. Heck even in basic training you learn that false motivation is better than no motivation.
I think (even though most of you dont agree) that we pulled the plug on Tye too early and that if we get rid of CW right now it will be too early on him as well. Give him another year or 2, heck he is being payed for it anyway, and they are just sophmore's.
You cant say he doesn't know how to coach the game. You can say that he's not great with coaching the players to their potential.
Oh and the person above asked what Skip had done that CW hasn't in his years. He won a bowl game.
Congrats to Skip winning 3 straight games, but remember he's playing with a senior laden team as well.

GO IRISH

 

[bluegold06]

If this team, playing against a Michigan we SHOULD beat, we have better talent. Doesn't start playing better. Something has to give and I am sure it will. We should be beating Mich St., Michigan, Pitt, and some of these others. We no longer have the talent issue. If we don't play better, something will change, you can bet on it. I hope this past week was just us playing down to a club, happens all the time. This week and the coming weeks will show how far we have come.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Oh and the person above asked what Skip had done that CW hasn't in his years. He won a bowl game.

GO IRISH

Touche. Of course, I'd much rather play Boise St. coming off a down year than Ohio St and LSU, but still. Skip is gonna leave ECU this year. Let him go to a bigger program first and take them BCS bowling before we annoint him, please...

 

[dre1919]

I'm not saying Skip Holtz is the answer and our next hire. In fact, I'm saying the exact opposite. Look, I like Charlie Weis and I think he's a good head coach (and a great recruiter). At a different school, that would be more than enough and he would be considered one of the greatest in the college game for what he's doing there. Notre Dame however is different...for better or for worse. This job chews coaches up and spits them out because of the incredibly difficult academic requirements (when compared to the likes of other top athletic schools), the always difficult schedule, the location, the media and fan expectation, etc.

My main point is, no matter how good or bad Charlie is he is just not the person we need running the show because we need the absolute best out there. With our vast connections and bank account, as well as our history as one of the two winningest programs in college football we deserve the best. Few schools are more storied and legendary in college football than Notre Dame and yet we have a second tier coach. Is that true or not true? If we all consider (and I'm fairly certain we can all agree) that people like Bob Stoops, Pete Carroll, Jim Tressel, Mack Brown...are the tier one coaches in college football...they are the types of coaches we should have. It's not out of dislike for Charlie...sure, I think he's a bit overrated as my sig suggests...but I still like him alright. That's possible, you know. I just think we, as a program, deserve the best we can possibly get.

I realize a lot of people turned the job down and for that the administration needs to take the heat. They've created a near no-win situation for whomever steps in and then added to it by showing they have a quick trigger finger (see the Ty situation). I believe in this modern era, especially with how far the rest of college football has caught up with Notre Dame (and passed them) we do need to give a coach five years before we see if he's a success or bust. But let's give the five years to a guy that is really, truly, the man for the job long term. I have yet to have faith that Weis is that man.

As for Jimmy Clausen, I think he will be a fine QB in college and perhaps even the pros. But, as I mentioned before, having watched college football for a long time I don't see anything right now that makes me think he's any better than Casey Clausen was at Tennessee. Prove me wrong. As the #1 rated QB...all-world heralded recruit...I'm just not seeing it so far. But, I will give you that sometimes it does take awhile for someone to find their way. Hell, I thought Carson Palmer was an overall college bust as well as a half season phenom but he's proven he is a good, NFL caliber QB, so perhaps JC will too. I really do hope so.

 

[bluegold06]

IF Notre Dame replaces Charlie, which I hope they do well and they don't. But lets face it, if he fails this year, he probably will go. ND needs to do like Bama and OPEN the pocketbook. Bama sent a message, they wanted Saban and would pay, last time we hired a coach, we didn't exactly show the money.

 

[mick2]

IF Notre Dame replaces Charlie, which I hope they do well and they don't. But lets face it, if he fails this year, he probably will go. ND needs to do like Bama and OPEN the pocketbook. Bama sent a message, they wanted Saban and would pay, last time we hired a coach, we didn't exactly show the money.

what is considered a fail though? i think as long as we make a bowl game and win it this season is a success. inflated expectations every year is what brings this sense of failure. we are still 1-0. i believe this week is a must win, we just have to ride out the storm one week at a time i think when all is said and done this season will be a good one for ND and we will continue to improve as we get older and we watch this offense which is green sophs and froshs grow into experienced unshaken upperclassmen.

 

[bluegold06]

We won 3 games in a row last year. i think we should and need to beat Meat Chicken, they aren't exactly strong this year.