Rioting in St Louis

[JughedJones]

Also important no one has been shot during the rioting

Well.. I consider that a win! Right?

At least the cops haven't killed anyone else for petty crimes. U.S.A.!

Cops walk away.

Shoot to kill.

 

[kmoose]

Well.. I consider that a win! Right?

At least the cops haven't killed anyone else for petty crimes. U.S.A.!

It does kind of refute the assertion, made by many, that the Ferguson Police Department was just crazy out of control, in regards to violence against people of color. If that were true, one would have expected them to use the rioting as an excuse to kill some of them.

 

[JughedJones]

It does kind of refute the assertion, made by many, that the Ferguson Police Department was just crazy out of control, in regards to violence against people of color. If that were true, one would have expected them to use the rioting as an excuse to kill some of them.

St. Louis Cops Shot Tear Gas At Al Jazeera Film Crew | Crooks and Liars


Yeah... they're great. Well done. Not crazy or out of control at all.

Their own state senators and representatives got gassed.

They were OUT of Control.

 

[kmoose]

St. Louis Cops Shot Tear Gas At Al Jazeera Film Crew | Crooks and Liars


Yeah... they're great. Well done. Not crazy or out of control at all.

Their own state senators and representatives got gassed.

They were OUT of Control.

I've been gassed............. twice. Have you ever been gassed? It is not a pleasant experience at all, but it is hardly violent.

The assertion was not that the police were not violent at all. They did fire rubber bullets at one point. The point was that there were quite a few people who initially tried to paint this incident as blood-thirsty, racist white cop kills a black teenager.......... for no other reason than because he is black. IF that were the case, you would expect that these blood thirsty white cops who kill people just for being black would have used the rioting as cover to carry out a lot more executions. The fact that they didn't lends credence to the idea that the premise was not true to begin with. It does NOT indicate that all of the cops are wonderful, kind, decent human beings. It just indicates that they are not out there looking for any excuse to execute a black man.

 

[JughedJones]

I've been gassed............. twice. Have you ever been gassed? It is not a pleasant experience at all, but it is hardly violent.

The assertion was not that the police were not violent at all. They did fire rubber bullets at one point. The point was that there were quite a few people who initially tried to paint this incident as blood-thirsty, racist white cop kills a black teenager.......... for no other reason than because he is black. IF that were the case, you would expect that these blood thirsty white cops who kill people just for being black would have used the rioting as cover to carry out a lot more executions. The fact that they didn't lends credence to the idea that the premise was not true to begin with. It does NOT indicate that all of the cops are wonderful, kind, decent human beings. It just indicates that they are not out there looking for any excuse to execute a black man.

Moose.. I'm going to keep myself reasonable here.

Just because they didn't kill more people, doesn't mean they did a good job. Do you get it?

Their local news, the national press, their representatives, the international media... all of whom were on the scene were saying that they were acting like insane people.

Just because they didn't go on a ethnic cleansing binge doesn't mean we should pin medals on their chests.


Edit: I'm a hippie/punk rock kid... so yeah. I've been gassed. Lots. But this isn't about us, is it?

 

[JughedJones]

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[NDFan4Life]

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[kmoose]

Moose.. I'm going to keep myself reasonable here.

Just because they didn't kill more people, doesn't mean they did a good job. Do you get it?

Their local news, the national press, their representatives, the international media... all of whom were on the scene were saying that they were acting like insane people.

Just because they didn't go on a ethnic cleansing binge doesn't mean we should pin medals on their chests.

But I am not making the assertion that they HAVE handled it well. All I am saying is that their response was in direct contradiction to the inference that many initially made: that this was just another example of cop on black violence, simply because the victim was black. Now, in all fairness, it could still come out that the cop shot the kid for no other reason than he is a racist who views blacks as subhumans, and that that viewpoint is common in the Ferguson, MO Police Department. But the fact that they did not kill anyone during the riots is not indicative of that. You should NOT take that as a defense of the Police Department.

 

[JughedJones]

But I am not making the assertion that they HAVE handled it well. All I am saying is that their response was in direct contradiction to the inference that many initially made: that this was just another example of cop on black violence, simply because the victim was black. Now, in all fairness, it could still come out that the cop shot the kid for no other reason than he is a racist who views blacks as subhumans, and that that viewpoint is common in the Ferguson, MO Police Department. But the fact that they did not kill anyone during the riots is not indicative of that. You should NOT take that as a defense of the Police Department.

I'm not, and have never made, the inference that any of the cops had black hatred on their minds as some kind of regulation. I am saying that there is -- Clearly -- something institutionally wrong here. If a white kid in a suburban neighborhood got gunned down by a cop, you can be DAMN sure that the WWWW would be available pronto.

It wasn't here. His community is not being served by the people that live in it. They don't understand it. They are others. It's not 'hatred' or viewing someone as 'subhuman' necessarily, but it is clearly and objectively treating someone as not part of your community.

Until we understand that this happens all the time, this is only going to get worse. People blame it on the media, they blame it on political correctness, they blame it on video games, or radical elements. It's none of those. It's underrepresented communities fighting a losing battle in a zero sum game.

 

[kmoose]

It wasn't here. His community is not being served by the people that live in it. They don't understand it. They are others. It's not 'hatred' or viewing someone as 'subhuman' necessarily, but it is clearly and objectively treating someone as not part of your community.

Until we understand that this happens all the time, this is only going to get worse. People blame it on the media, they blame it on political correctness, they blame it on video games, or radical elements. It's none of those. It's underrepresented communities fighting a losing battle in a zero sum game.

The public servants in those communities are all either elected by the people of the community, or hired by those elected by the community. If the community feels that only someone of the proper ethnicity can really understand them, then they need to start voting appropriately. You can't keep voting for white city leaders, and then complain that there are not enough black city leaders. That's a just a cop out by communities who have no other way to explain their circumstances.

 

[JughedJones]

The public servants in those communities are all either elected by the people of the community, or hired by those elected by the community. If the community feels that only someone of the proper ethnicity can really understand them, then they need to start voting appropriately. You can't keep voting for white city leaders, and then complain that there are not enough black city leaders. That's a just a cop out by communities who have no other way to explain their circumstances.

good god man. Really? Have you been paying attention to this at all?

(Guess where she's from and what she was doing?) (and if it matters to you, she's black)

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[kmoose]

good god man. Really? Have you been paying attention to this at all?

(Guess where she's from and what she was doing?)

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I don't really care about some State Senator getting gassed. You made the contention that a big part of the problem in these communities is that their governments don't reflect the make up of the community. Well........... the community elects the government, so who is to blame for that?

 

[JughedJones]

Further, it kind of pisses me off when you said: "If the community feels that only someone of the proper ethnicity can really understand them, then they need to start voting appropriately."

You realize that you're talking about a group of people who are, by definition, the minority... right?

Do you realize the ridiculous notion you proposed and how it solidifies my thesis?



EDIT: Do you not think that the people in Ferguson VOTED FOR THAT SENATOR??????

Do you want me to link you to their Alderman that got gassed??? Dude... you're starting to break apart now.

 

[kmoose]

Further, it kind of pisses me off when you said: "If the community feels that only someone of the proper ethnicity can really understand them, then they need to start voting appropriately."

You realize that you're talking about a group of people who are, by definition, the minority... right?

Do you realize the ridiculous notion you proposed and how it solidifies my thesis?

You just said that the group of people makes up over 70% of the community. So they are not a minority in the community.

 

[JughedJones]

You just said that the group of people makes up over 70% of the community. So they are not a minority in the community.

If you think that a tiny town in Missouri that happens to be made up of mostly African Americans has the power to self determine... (I was about to say something rude)

you're not thinking clearly.




Fuck Marxism
Fuck Socialism
Fuck Capitalism
Fuck Anarchism
White man's got a whole lot of solutions
White man's got a whole lot of problems
White man's got a lot of bright ideas
White man like to play God
White man says, he says that God is a white man.
Everybody else and everything else gets systematically objectified
Fuck Communism
Fuck Democracy
Fuck science
Fuck reason and rationality
White man's got a whole lot of solutions
White man's got a whole lot of problems
White man's got a lot of bright ideas
White man like to play God
White man says, he says that God is a white man.
Everybody else and everything else gets systematically objectified
White man says, he says nature is not a part of God
White man's got progress, but its only pollution
White man's got technology, it's only confusion
White man's got Nature yeah, and he's got the papers to prove it
White man's got a bomb and he's stupid enough to use it
White man says, he says that God is a white man
Everybody else and everything else gets systematically objectified
White man says, he says nature is not a part of God
To kill her becomes justified
White man says, yellow man, red man black man they are not a part of God
To kill them becomes justified
Man against God
Man against Nature
Man against Woman
Man against child
Man against Man

 

[kmoose]

If you think that a tiny town in Missouri that happens to be made up of mostly African Americans has the power to self determine... (I was about to say something rude)

you're not thinking clearly.

Who elects the mayor and the city council? And who hires the police chief, who hires the officers? And what is the make up the mayor and city council, in terms of race? People from Cleveland, OH, or Jacksonville, FL, or Montgomery, AL do not get to vote in the elections in Ferguson. So unless you have proof of voter fraud, then the community itself has to take the responsibility for the government that is elected.

 

[JughedJones]

Who elects the mayor and the city council? And who hires the police chief, who hires the officers? And what is the make up the mayor and city council, in terms of race? People from Cleveland, OH, or Jacksonville, FL, or Montgomery, AL do not get to vote in the elections in Ferguson. So unless you have proof of voter fraud, then the community itself has to take the responsibility for the government that is elected.

I only say this here, I hope it doesn't leave the confines of our Lounge discussion. ND football is very important to me, and like I said, I appreciate your comments on it.

If you really think that Ferguson, MO, which is in the heart of St. Louis proper, gets to self determine its police force... you're a part of the problem. You don't understand at all how politics work in a racist white southern state. (Spare me the "Missouri is the Mid-West" bullshit) I was born there, I know how it works.

Either, you are truly ignorant and I should treat you kindly and with sympathy; or you are willfully ignorant of what's going on. If that's the case you know exactly how the world works and you are creating racist straw-man arguments. If that's what's happening, get lost.

So, as far as this topic goes: You're either dumb, or an amoral racist douche.

Pick it.

 

[kmoose]

I only say this here, I hope it doesn't leave the confines of our Lounge discussion. ND football is very important to me, and like I said, I appreciate your comments on it.

If you really think that Ferguson, MO, which is in the heart of St. Louis proper, gets to self determine its police force... you're a part of the problem. You don't understand at all how politics work in a racist white southern state. (Spare me the "Missouri is the Mid-West" bullshit) I was born there, I know how it works.

Either, you are truly ignorant and I should treat you kindly and with sympathy; or you are willfully ignorant of what's going on. If that's the case you know exactly how the world works and you are creating racist straw-man arguments. If that's what's happening, get lost.

So, as far as this topic goes: You're either dumb, or an amoral racist douche.

Pick it.

While I reject your assertion that the only two options here are dumb, or a racist, I will admit that I am unsure of what you mean, in terms of the residents of Ferguson not being able to elect their own officials? As I understand it, Ferguson in an incorporated city, with its own services. The town elects the mayor and city council. The City Council hires a Chief of Police, and that Chief hires the officers of the Police Department. So, if the citizens feel their race is under-represented, then they can voice their displeasure to their city councilman. If that city councilman does not heed their wishes, then they can vote him out of office in the next election. Now, obviously, you feel that this process is being railroaded or circumvented, somewhere along the line. But just because I am not aware of the same circumstances that you are, doesn't make me either dumb, or a racist. So I am listening, waiting to hear where the process goes bad....

 

[irishog77]

Then continuing to chastise kmoose for his ignorance, please enlighten us all how it really works in this "racist white southern state."

If this 75% of the population truly don't have a say in how their own city runs, functions, and operates, I think we'd all be interested to learn the real way Ferguson, MO runs, functions, and operates.

 

[JughedJones]

Have y'all bothered to look at a map?

Where do you see Ferguson on that map?

I'm not going to sit here and give you guys a lesson on how Metro Civics work. What you're asking me to do is tell you exactly what city Commissioner tells what Alderman who tells what Comptroller etc etc.

Do you guys live in a city? I do. Not a big one admittedly, but it works basically the same way. In Portland, OR (that's where I live, I'm going to take it slow) we have a number of smaller 'cities' in our Metro area. Gresham, Troutdale, Hillsboro, etc. If any of them want to elect a Chief of police, guess what? It funnels right through Portland's City Hall. If you think Gresham is going to hire a full police force full of militarized weaponry without Portland having the final say in the matter... you crazy.

Is that clear enough? Does it sound anything like where you live? Unless you live in a fucking cornfield somewhere, it must. If you think the poorest community in our Metro area has any self-determination, you're fucking nuts.

Theoretically, they could break off from the Metro structure, but that would mean they would get no city funds anymore, which would mean they get no state funds anymore, which means they get no federal funds anymore. Don't be idiots.

Damn you guys for making me spell it out. Edit: I guess I did try to give you a Metro civics lesson.

 

[kmoose]

Have y'all bothered to look at a map?

Where do you see Ferguson on that map?

I'm not going to sit here and give you guys a lesson on how Metro Civics work. What you're asking me to do is tell you exactly what city Commissioner tells what Alderman who tells what Comptroller etc etc.

Do you guys live in a city? I do. Not a big one admittedly, but it works basically the same way. In Portland, OR (that's where I live, I'm going to take it slow) we have a number of smaller 'cities' in our Metro area. Gresham, Troutdale, Hillsboro, etc. If any of them want to elect a Chief of police, guess what? It funnels right through Portland's City Hall. If you think Gresham is going to hire a full police force full of militarized weaponry without Portland having the final say in the matter... you crazy.

Is that clear enough? Does it sound anything like where you live? Unless you live in a fucking cornfield somewhere, it must. If you think the poorest community in our Metro area has any self-determination, you're fucking nuts.

Theoretically, they could break off from the Metro structure, but that would mean they would get no city funds anymore, which would mean they get no state funds anymore, which means they get no federal funds anymore. Don't be idiots.

Damn you guys for making me spell it out. Edit: I guess I did try to give you a Metro civics lesson.

Funny......... in the 15 years that I lived in the Portland Metro area, Wilsonville and Canby both hired police chiefs(while I lived there), without Portland having any say. Just because you are skeptical of the process, doesn't mean that the process is, indeed, flawed.

 

[irishog77]

Funny......... in the 15 years that I lived in the Portland Metro area, Wilsonville and Canby both hired police chiefs(while I lived there), without Portland having any say. Just because you are skeptical of the process, doesn't mean that the process is, indeed, flawed.

This.

Or that just because you personally assume meanies and racists are keeping the town of Ferguson, MO down...it doesn't make it so.

The reason I asked for you to explain yourself (and I assume kmoose too) is because you're obnoxiously telling kmoose he is wrong...but offering no evidence to the contrary. Just that you assume it to be the case.

This post isn't meant to come across as me coming after you. Genuinely, if you have some evidence or facts that the people of Ferguson, MO aren't able to self-rule, then I'd honestly like to hear it. I think it is pitiful if any city in this country isn't able to actually be the decision makers for what goes on inside their own city limits.

 

[JughedJones]

Funny......... in the 15 years that I lived in the Portland Metro area, Wilsonville and Canby both hired police chiefs(while I lived there), without Portland having any say. Just because you are skeptical of the process, doesn't mean that the process is, indeed, flawed.

Really? You're gonna go Wilsonville and Canby right now? Like those two towns have anything AT ALL in common with Furguson or the St. Louis Metro.

How often did you see a black person in Canby? Be honest... I live here so you can't fib. You might have seen a few Latino people every now and then, but again. Be honest, have you ever seen a whiter place in your life?

 

[JughedJones]

This.

Or that just because you personally assume meanies and racists are keeping the town of Ferguson, MO down...it doesn't make it so.

The reason I asked for you to explain yourself (and I assume kmoose too) is because you're obnoxiously telling kmoose he is wrong...but offering no evidence to the contrary. Just that you assume it to be the case.

This post isn't meant to come across as me coming after you. Genuinely, if you have some evidence or facts that the people of Ferguson, MO aren't able to self-rule, then I'd honestly like to hear it. I think it is pitiful if any city in this country isn't able to actually be the decision makers for what goes on inside their own city limits.

What "proof" could I possibly come up with? You guys got your minds made up. It's their fault they haven't pulled their bootstraps tight enough. I get it.

Your'e not racially blind at all. I concede. Well done. The white man wins again.

Go Redskins.

 

[kmoose]

Really? You're gonna go Wilsonville and Canby right now? Like those two towns have anything AT ALL in common with Furguson or the St. Louis Metro.

How often did you see a black person in Canby? Be honest... I live here so you can't fib. You might have seen a few Latino people every now and then, but again. Be honest, have you ever seen a whiter place in your life?

Yes............ Wilsonville. But we were not discussing the racial makeup of Portland suburbs, versus St. Louis suburbs. We were discussing the hiring authority for suburban police chiefs. So is it your contention that the Ferguson City Council must obtain the approval of some nebulous St. Louis city agency, before hiring a Chief of Police, and that that Chief must also obtain the permission of this shadowy organization, in order to hire an officer?

 

[JughedJones]

Yes............ Wilsonville. But we were not discussing the racial makeup of Portland suburbs, versus St. Louis suburbs. We were discussing the hiring authority for suburban police chiefs. So is it your contention that the Ferguson City Council must obtain the approval of some nebulous St. Louis city agency, before hiring a Chief of Police, and that that Chief must also obtain the permission of this shadowy organization, in order to hire an officer?

Just stop, man.

Please.

"Nebulous?" No. If you get militarized weaponry, it's not just sent directly to Ferguson. (Or Wilsonville since you love that hick town so much.)

Yes, Moose. It is my contention that the 'Chief' of some tiny town in the middle of St. Louis get the approval of City Hall. Don't be an ass.

I'm done arguing with you. You're requiring minutia when the obvious is clear. Little towns within the purview of big cities have to ask for permission for stuff. I know that's a difficult concept for you Canby folk, but it's the way things work.

I'd love to visit your utopian community that is fully self-sufficient right in the middle of a major metropolitan city.

 

[kmoose]

Just stop, man.

Please.

"Nebulous?" No. If you get militarized weaponry, it's not just sent directly to Ferguson. (Or Wilsonville since you love that hick town so much.)

Yes, Moose. It is my contention that the 'Chief' of some tiny town in the middle of St. Louis get the approval of City Hall. Don't be an ass.

I'm done arguing with you. You're requiring minutia when the obvious is clear. Little towns within the purview of big cities have to ask for permission for stuff. I know that's a difficult concept for you Canby folk, but it's the way things work.

I'd love to visit your utopian community that is fully self-sufficient right in the middle of a major metropolitan city.

You do realize that Ferguson is NOT within the city limits of St. Louis, right? Ferguson is its own entity, not a neighborhood, or some kind of incorporated area of the city of St. Louis. This is not Boss Tweed and Tammany Hall.

 

[JughedJones]

https://www.google.com/maps/place/F...2!3m1!1s0x87df49e36de09f05:0x7b87d2fc9ee09289

I'm not sure if this link will work, and if it does, I don't know if you've ever been to a big ol' town like St. Louis.

You see that loop that encompasses the city? Yeah. It's St. Louis, homie.


EDIT: (lulz that Furguson isn't St. Louis Metro but Canby is part of Portland.)

Furguson just afforded all those militarized vehicles with that sweet sweet tax money from 21K people huh? You're embarrassing yourself.

I'm over this horseshit. You know what you are, I know what you are. Let's play football.

 

[kmoose]

https://www.google.com/maps/place/F...2!3m1!1s0x87df49e36de09f05:0x7b87d2fc9ee09289

I'm not sure if this link will work, and if it does, I don't know if you've ever been to a big ol' town like St. Louis.

You see that loop that encompasses the city? Yeah. It's St. Louis, homie.

Seriously? Ferguson is in St Louis County, yes, but that is NOT in the city of St. Louis. I'm out. Sorry, but this has gotten to be a little too much for even me.

 

[JughedJones]

Seriously? Ferguson is in St Louis County, yes, but that is NOT in the city of St. Louis. I'm out. Sorry, but this has gotten to be a little too much for even me.

Re-Quote: Furguson just afforded all those militarized vehicles with that sweet sweet tax money from 21K people huh? You're embarrassing yourself.