ND Values?

[windsome]

I find it interesting, when reading this forum, to see the endless allusions to Notre Dame values, all of which suggest that there is a near-universal acceptance of a notion that we hold ourselves to some kind of a higher moral standard than other institutions when it comes to our approach to football operations. Our hypocrisy in this regard is most apparent in discussions of possible replacements for the hopeless, and hopelessly arrogant Charlie. Who are we kidding? All that should have gone out the window when we unceremoniously dumped Willingham, who was about equally unsuccessful as Charlie on the field, but, unlike Charlie, was the embodiment of dignity and class. There is a difference between us and the likes of Florida and Alabama. They recruit better football players than we do, and play an infinitely tougher level of competition than we do....end of story. In all other respects, we're the same as them, and everyone else, willing to throw our so-called values into the dumpster in order to win....we just don't know how to do it as well as others do. I vote that we cease to lie to ourselves, henceforth play only the likes of Navy and Syracuse, and just content ourselves with break even seasons in a terrific campus environment.

 

[edcubby]

I'll keep this very simple...

Meyer went to UF because they said he could recruit JC kids and he had the power to get 6 kids a year into the university REGARDLESS of academic background...crazy.

After 5 years, that is 30 criminals who can run and tackle but can't read and write.

That is a small difference, huh.

 

[TC_57]

Is just a coincidence that the last time ND won the NC, they had a few players who would not have qualified under current academic qualifications?

 

[ARALOU]

Is just a coincidence that the last time ND won the NC, they had a few players who would not have qualified under current academic qualifications?

Does Holtz leaving make sense now? I had always heard that increased admission standards was "one" of the reasons he left.

 

[WaveDomer]

A few things:

I don't think Willingham was "unceremoniously dumped." I believe he didn't want to be at ND anymore. Did ND jump the gun? Probably. Should they have given 5 years? Probably, but if he didn't want to be there anymore then the decision is pretty mutual.

As for people who had no problem with Holtz and have a problem with Meyer. Meyer has not left a school with violations. Holtz did so almost everwhere. What does this tell you? Just because he wanted JUCO's etc. doesn't mean he's a slimeball. ND said "no" and Meyer said "no." If that's what he wants again, just say "no" again.

 

[phork]

According to some people on this board Wavedomer, JUCOs are akin to the roll call at the State Penitentiary.

 

[WaveDomer]

According to some people on this board Wavedomer, JUCOs are akin to the roll call at the State Penitentiary.

I'm not a supporter of just letting anyone come here. But the other part of the equation that people are forgetting is that once you are a student at ND, you are going to class and going to have to get the grades. That's one of the things that is great about a school like ND. They actually live up to their end of the bargain and get students ready for life. The majority of college football players are not going to play at the next level. Most schools leave them high and dry. So kids who have a tougher time with academics may need more help, tutors etc., but as long as they work hard and get it done, that is a success story. To me it's a bigger success story to have some kid who has trouble with academics come in and graduate in a real major and get a great job in the private sector than it is for some kid who has problems with academics to come in, not go to class, and become NFL MVP.

 

[WaveDomer]

We also need to differentiate between problems in the classroom and problems with a kid's value system. The Unabomber was a freaking genius. Would I want that dude anywhere near my life? No.

 

[Irish Rogue]

Lower the Acedemic standards, that doesn't mean letting Criminals play. Did anyone catch Maleauga trying to talk after the game? What a babbling clown.

 

[windsome]

Ok, ok

Ok, ok

I can see from some of the responses to my original post that the idea that we resist lying to ourselves about our moral superiority won't fly....so, how about this instead?: We continue to pat ourselves on the back, continue especially to indulge in that biggest of all whoppers - the other guys are better than we are because they recruit "criminals," (unbelievably smug, small-minded, and, let's just for once be honest, racist) - and just refocus our program, relinquish any silly pretense of national championships, and schedule only lesser opponents. Then we can honestly say that we put true student/athletes on the field and stop trying to make ourselves feel better about the quality of our product by hypocritically pumping ourselves up with outrageous untruths.

 

[JeremyND07]

I would rather be an average team forever then lower the acedimic standards at Notre Dame!!!! Without them we are just another school!!!!

 

[WaveDomer]

(unbelievably smug, small-minded, and, let's just for once be honest, racist)

That's an unneccessary charge, that at this point in time has been thrown out there enough times in unwarranted situations that it has lost most of it's value. People who cry "racism" over everything have sadly taken away from the situations that are actuallly racist. Using a kid just for football and then dumping him into the real world with no education is more racist than not lowering academic standards. Are you saying that only minorities have academic issues in high school? Man am I sick and tired of people who throw out the race card at every opportunity.

 

[Irish Rogue]

Race has nothing to do with this. Leave the politics out of this thread.

 

[ARALOU]

One thing about the standards at ND. They are not the only school that recruits intelligent briight kids. The Texas Tech kids that were interviewed impressed the hell out of me. I like the idea that we recruit good kids, but hey, we aint got the market cornered on the student-athlete. Look at Vandy and Duke. Hell, Florida State has a Rhodes Scholar playing defensive back. Why is he not at Notre Dame? Just so you dont think I am bashing the Irish I will say that history has proven that alot of our players go on to big things in life after football. No need to repeat all the great players that have made "MAJOR" contributions to society. I just wanted to say that there are other programs with some pretty impressive kids on and off the field.

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

"USC had a lot more criminal players than we did and they ran a lot faster than we did. Criminal kids can run very well. That doesn't mean that inteligent kids and other descents can't run, but it's very obvious to me that they run extremely well"-Charlie Weis

 

[VictorsValiant]

I have followed this situation (as a Michigan fan and alum), with interest. Let me just say this. There is no way ND can win while maintaining the highest academic and character standards. To win, you need the best recruits with superior academic and athletic credentials, but here's the thing. These recruits are also NFL prospects in addition to being suitable for success in other endeavors. Smart students will succeed regardless of which university they attend. This is why Rolle could manage a Rhodes Scholarship at Florida State, the same Florida State that was hit with a huge cheating scandal. For these players (good players with good academics), the university is only part of the equation. If ND thinks they can win with this strategy, they're engaging in pure fantasy. There are too many different programs, systems, styles out there that accentuate player strengths so they are placed in a favorable position for the next level. ND can't win this battle unless they sacrifice something. At Michigan, character is not sacrificed but academics are, but we always get more than a few recruits every year (this year being no exception) who have superior academic credentials to go along with their superior athletic potential.

This is a watershed moment for ND. The last four coaches have proven that the model doesn't work. ND bit off more than they could chew when they thought they were better than Holtz.

 

[WaveDomer]

"USC had a lot more criminal players than we did and they ran a lot faster than we did. Criminal kids can run very well. That doesn't mean that inteligent kids and other descents can't run, but it's very obvious to me that they run extremely well"-Charlie Weis

That's a ridiculous quote from someone who is being a sore loser. Maybe Pete Carroll is some type of criminal mastermind, seeing as he outcoaches Weis on the sidelines.

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

That's a ridiculous quote from someone who is being a sore loser. Maybe Pete Carroll is some type of criminal mastermind, seeing as he outcoaches Weis on the sidelines.

Dude it wasn't a real quote from Charlie.

It was taken from Fisher DeBerry's honest analysis of why they were outplayed by TCU but Charlie doesn't have the grapefruits to say it.

USC may not have criminals but seriously some of these guys are down right stupid,just look at LenDale White and Rey Malaluga.

 

[ARALOU]

VictorsValiant, the coach you have presently is well known for recruiting kids that need constant supervision. I wish you and Michigan well but I fear that the cold hard truth will rear its ugly head in the big house in the next few years.

 

[WaveDomer]

Dude it wasn't a real quote from Charlie.

It was taken from Fisher DeBerry's honest analysis of why they were outplayed by TCU but Charlie doesn't have the grapefruits to say it.

USC may not have criminals but seriously some of these guys are down right stupid,just look at LenDale White and Rey Malaluga.

Yeah, that's why it helps when you attribute a quote to the actual person who said it.

 

[urbanmeyerbadhire]

Our hypocrisy in this regard is most apparent in discussions of possible replacements for the hopeless, and hopelessly arrogant Charlie. Who are we kidding? All that should have gone out the window when we unceremoniously dumped Willingham, who was about equally unsuccessful as Charlie on the field, but, unlike Charlie, was the embodiment of dignity and class.

Jesus Christ, another uppity Ty Willingham fan...

What dignity and class? The guy was a total fraud, who basically stole money from ND and is now in the midst of destroying another program at Washington. But the national media never dared mention that because they had a social agenda of wanting to see a black coach do well. He was a total jerk, but the national media never reported it just like they ignored all the times he'd skip work to play golf.