Most articulate Irish player?

[tommy]

actually outside of pa stubenville ohio here come the jokes

 

[lattedatte]

i hear stubenville is very racist.

 

[tommy]

lol yea what chu talkin bout willis

 

[tommy]

there is one thing for sure our president isnt going to be confussed of being articulate thats one crazy white boy

 

[lattedatte]

lol, i'm glad to see someone has a sense of humor...

 

[A2McGowan]

Tommy......not sayin you're simple......for cryin out loud I just pulled a meatloaf out of the oven, I'm the simple cat......I just thought you were gonna bring it on the post because you've been so into this whole thread. I read all your new threads when you post them buddy. Go Irish beat Jackets!!!

 

[tommy]

well thanks man like wise but i think ive beatin this dog in to the ground

 

[tommy]

im so sensative on the race thing i have 3 little girls that would have some thing to say about me being a racist ( cousins mixed and wonderfull not to articulate but hey thier all under 12 )

 

[lattedatte]

there is one thing for sure our president isnt going to be confussed of being articulate thats one crazy white boy

that statement may actually bring you more heat from this board than any other statement you could could make. not from me, like ND, independent all the way.

 

[tommy]

i know it im not scared but like every thing else my word isnt final just an after thought

 

[tommy]

i am white so i can say white boy if i want right ?

 

[Vince Young]

But praising a black person for being articulate, as I've said, is a common act of people who are unconsciously racist, to whatever degree.

It's also a common act of people who believe that someone is articulate.

Here's the thing, Ralphie: saying "Brandon Hoyte is articulate" is not racist. It's saying that Brandon Hoyte is... checking the Merriam-Webster website... "able to speak; expressing oneself readily, clearly, or effectively." I think anyone who saw last season's features on Brandon Hoyte's poetry would agree that's an accurate description of him.

What IS racist is saying something like, "Brandon Hoyte is articulate, for a black guy." THAT is a de-facto insult of everyone else who is black, since the statement implies that black people normally aren't articulate.

But such words were never uttered on here. The thread didn't start out by saying Darius Walker is articulate for a black guy. It just said Darius Walker is articulate. Period. No mention of race at all... until YOU brought it up.

There's plenty of racism still out there in the world, Ralphie, and it's a serious problem. But an even bigger problem is people like you who jump into conversations like this and cry "Racism!" where there is absolutely no justification for it whatsoever. Keep doing that, and it becomes like the boy who cried "Wolf!" And it makes it harder to identify and fight off the real cases of racism that are still out there.

It also needlessly offends people like me. You don't know me. You don't know who I am, what my beliefs are, what my experiences have been. You don't know how I was raised. You don't know the small but significant contribution my father made to the civil rights movement once upon a time, and the lessons I learned from his story.

Ralphie, all you know is that I called Brandon Hoyte "articulate." And that must make me a racist.

 

[lattedatte]

I think everyone should just drop this issue and move on to talking about the over under on how many times brady is getting laid this season!! seriously, who wouldn't want to be brady right now? leave this topic for the morons in washington...

 

[tommy]

well i think it is possible quinn is getting layed like he just arrived in hawaii but doesnt he have a girl friend i dont think he has the time for all the sex he is afforded from being the starting qb from nd so im taking all his booty calls im just trying to help this fellow out aka taking one for the team

 

[ralphwaldoemerson]

It's also a common act of people who believe that someone is articulate.

Here's the thing, Ralphie: saying "Brandon Hoyte is articulate" is not racist. It's saying that Brandon Hoyte is... checking the Merriam-Webster website... "able to speak; expressing oneself readily, clearly, or effectively." I think anyone who saw last season's features on Brandon Hoyte's poetry would agree that's an accurate description of him.

Yes but articulate as opposed to what? Why does his being articulate merit mention? Would you not expect a black person or an athlete to be articulate? That's why it's a sign of unconscious racism. Do you always praise people on TV for being articulate? Would you praise Bob Costas for being articulate? Of course not. Words exist in context. The very act of calling someone articulate, in many cases, indicates that the person did not expect the other person to be articulate - for whatever reason.

 

[tommy]

why does being articulate merit mention ( it is a silly Q)because its two weeks till kick off and people have been asking questions since the last play in the fiesta bowl it wasnt to dredge up life long debates of racism i hear where your coming from but we are running out of things to talk about we all need nd football its getting to all of us its kind of funny to me but it really is a sickness goooooooooooooooooo irish i meant no disrespect to black folks or any one else i hate the teams we play not the people behind the jersey

 

[lattedatte]

Aren't we are all racist/prejudice since we support the FIGHTING irish, wonder how all the potato farmers in Ireland feel about that??

Seriously why can't we just talk football or sex or WVU's preseason ranking or the fed's current interest rate policy, anything but racism.

Tommy - that's funny I thought I was the one taking Brady's groupies off his hands?? My wife is definitely one of those!!

 

[tommy]

im sure there are enough groupies for all of us here on ie

 

[TexasDomer]

Yes but articulate as opposed to what?

As opposed to not being articulate.

Why does his being articulate merit mention?

Because it is yet another example of a quality of excellence in a person.

Would you not expect a black person or an athlete to be articulate?

It is a compliment paid to someone who is able to speak well. It has nothing to do with race or athleticism. If I see an ordinary person on a news cast interviewed about an event, and they carry themselves well, I think, "Hey, that person's pretty articulate."

I don't qualify it (e.g., "...for a black person." "...for a Southerner." "...for a Democrat.").

This thread was founded based on the fact that we have some student-athletes on our football team who are very thoughtful, articulate players. Both black and white players have been named as good and as bad examples where being articulate is concerned.

That's why it's a sign of unconscious racism.

No, that's why it CAN be a sign of unconscious racism. Rather than make the accusation, perhaps getting clarity on what the person meant was in order. Jumping to conclusions about the person's motives and character are just as unfair as the unconscious racism you write of.

Do you always praise people on TV for being articulate?

Yes.

Would you praise Bob Costas for being articulate?

Yes. Relative to other sportscasters, he is very articulate.

Of course not.

Wrong. See above.

Words exist in context.

Indeed, and you might have sought to see what that context was before your accusation.

The very act of calling someone articulate, in many cases, indicates that the person did not expect the other person to be articulate - for whatever reason.

That reason is what matters. For you, because Darius is African-American, the reason was race. When Brady was mentioned, perhaps someone would say because he is an athlete. It can be an absolute quality (Wow, Bob Costas is very articulate.) or a relative one (Wow, Bob Costas is very articulate for a sportscaster). For you to assume that anyone was making an assessment relative to race says more about you than it does about anyone else.

I have been called articulate before (full disclosure: white, male, non-scholarship, non-athlete), and I took it as a compliment. Someone thought enough of how I spoke to a group to say that I didn't appear nervous, I didn't stammer, I had command of the material I spoke about, and I was energetic in my presentation.

Given how, regardless of demographics, public speaking isn't an easy thing to do for anyone, being praised as articulate is a good thing. To me, this isn't the "deceptive speed is code for fast for a white guy" in reverse. No one called Darius "deceptively articulate."

Ralph, you injected race into this thread. No one else did. Darius was mentioned because he IS articulate, not because he is an articulate black man. If you had bothered to seek to understand this before casting aspersions, we wouldn't be on an 8-page thread drift.

 

[onenybrother]

Damn, now it's a wrong when we call each other articulate. In this day and age it's a compliment for anyone to be called articulate white or black. Let's go Dame

 

[Dannyboy Ayers]

I could not of said it better myself TexasDomer! you put that very articulatly. LOL

 

[TexasDomer]

I could not of said it better myself TexasDomer! you put that very articulatly. LOL

Just what do you mean by that? grin:

 

[Dannyboy Ayers]

LOL..... you said that very well, the way you commanded the english language and covered every point.

 

[tommy]

you must be racist to say something like that lol sorry i just had to do it

 

[Vince Young]

TexasDomer, you have summed up my points far better than I ever could.

The most important point you made was that just because something COULD be taken as racist doesn't mean it IS racist. The only way to know is to look into that person's heart, watch their other actions and hear their other words. A single word on an internet forum is simply not enough evidence either way. And unless the accusation can be proven, it shouldn't be made in the first place.

The irony about all of this is that the first person mentioned in this thread, Darius Walker, has ACTUAL FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE with ACTUAL RACISM. Imagine that. As has been discussed on this board in the past, he had a run-in with some good-ol'-boy security officer in front of a movie theatre who decided that Darius, being the only black boy out front, must have been responsible for the cars that had been broken into in the parking lot earlier that night. Fortunately, in his case justice prevailed. But it kinda makes arguing over the "racism" of the word "articulate" seem a little silly, doesn't it?

Rep for you, TexasDomer.

 

[ralphwaldoemerson]

As opposed to not being articulate.

So the expectation is that a student at Notre Dame would not be articulate? Really?

Because it is yet another example of a quality of excellence in a person.

Not really. Considering that the people in question are students at one of the most prestigious academic institutions in the country, it seems that being articulate would be as much par for the course as being able to breathe. I see no reason why it would merit mention.

It is a compliment paid to someone who is able to speak well. It has nothing to do with race or athleticism. If I see an ordinary person on a news cast interviewed about an event, and they carry themselves well, I think, "Hey, that person's pretty articulate."

I don't qualify it (e.g., "...for a black person." "...for a Southerner." "...for a Democrat.").

This thread was founded based on the fact that we have some student-athletes on our football team who are very thoughtful, articulate players. Both black and white players have been named as good and as bad examples where being articulate is concerned.

Yes but we're not discussing ordinary people on a news cast. We're discussing students at one of the most prestigious academic institutions in the USA. Why would you not expect them to be articulate? Why would you even have to SAY that a particular student at Notre Dame is thoughtful and articulate? Isn't that to be expected? Either the implication is that black people are not generally thoughtful and articulate, or that football players are not generally thoughtful and articulate. Pick one.

No, that's why it CAN be a sign of unconscious racism. Rather than make the accusation, perhaps getting clarity on what the person meant was in order. Jumping to conclusions about the person's motives and character are just as unfair as the unconscious racism you write of.

Considering the content of the post, the possible implications of the post, and the poster's history, it seems like a reasonable conclusion to, not jump to, but rather arrive at in a timely fashion.

Yes.

Really? Do you praise Jeopardy contestants for being articulate? How about experts featured on programs on The History Channel? Something tells me you aren't being completely honest.

Yes. Relative to other sportscasters, he is very articulate.

Have you ever praised him for it, before you were prompted to? If a "best sportscasters" thread were started, would you praise certain sportscasters for being articulate? I've posted on many boards before and have had many discussions of many TV sports announcers, and have heard some very eloquent, articulate ones praised, and never in any of those conversations has someone called one of those announcers articulate. Never.

Indeed, and you might have sought to see what that context was before your accusation.

I did. This was a thread posted with no malicious intent, carelessly, without much consideration, by a young, white, reactionary, presumably middle class (but perhaps lower middle class, or even poor) male. And, fully aware of that context, I made my comments.

And the reason there is a 9-page thread is that everyone here, being white, got immediately uncomfortable when someone called someone else out for posting what is in all likelihood an unconsciously racist topic.

 

[Óglaigh_na_hÉireann]

I didn't know I had a 'history'.

 

[Dannyboy Ayers]

like his football takes he dosn't know what the hell he is talking about! he seems to be reaching to make his opinion and the fact that he is an asshole and feels that you can not compliment someone that is black or it is racist proves it. I find it intersting that the only person who he is defending is Darius. Why are you not defending Brady, he goes to the same school dosn't he? or the fact that I said Tommy Z dosn't seem articulate. Why don't you just go read a book about how the white man is allways trying to hold the black man down to get some more ammo becuase here on IrishEnvy.com we talk about football stuff not racist ass BS. You don't even know the guy yet you want to call him a racist and say he has a history. A history of being a good contributer the this site and having insightfull takes. Yet you seem to get bashed and ripped on every thread and generally just suck at all your takes. KICK ROCKS or as we say in CALI. you need some get right.

 

[Irish Legend]

So the expectation is that a student at Notre Dame would not be articulate? Really?




Not really. Considering that the people in question are students at one of the most prestigious academic institutions in the country, it seems that being articulate would be as much par for the course as being able to breathe. I see no reason why it would merit mention.




Yes but we're not discussing ordinary people on a news cast. We're discussing students at one of the most prestigious academic institutions in the USA. Why would you not expect them to be articulate? Why would you even have to SAY that a particular student at Notre Dame is thoughtful and articulate? Isn't that to be expected? Either the implication is that black people are not generally thoughtful and articulate, or that football players are not generally thoughtful and articulate. Pick one.




Considering the content of the post, the possible implications of the post, and the poster's history, it seems like a reasonable conclusion to, not jump to, but rather arrive at in a timely fashion.




Really? Do you praise Jeopardy contestants for being articulate? How about experts featured on programs on The History Channel? Something tells me you aren't being completely honest.




Have you ever praised him for it, before you were prompted to? If a "best sportscasters" thread were started, would you praise certain sportscasters for being articulate? I've posted on many boards before and have had many discussions of many TV sports announcers, and have heard some very eloquent, articulate ones praised, and never in any of those conversations has someone called one of those announcers articulate. Never.




I did. This was a thread posted with no malicious intent, carelessly, without much consideration, by a young, white, reactionary, presumably middle class (but perhaps lower middle class, or even poor) male. And, fully aware of that context, I made my comments.

And the reason there is a 9-page thread is that everyone here, being white, got immediately uncomfortable when someone called someone else out for posting what is in all likelihood an unconsciously racist topic.

Ralphie-
By that quote I accuse you of being the racist! How do you know what color everyone is? Your the obvious racist, just like when I hit a nerve by saying earlier that the person who cries racism first is usually the racist. Sorry, you've been outed. Now go.

 

[Vince Young]

Considering the content of the post, the possible implications of the post, and the poster's history, it seems like a reasonable conclusion to, not jump to, but rather arrive at in a timely fashion.

So... Óglaigh_na_hÉireann has a history of posting racist statements? Examples, please.

You sure love to throw unsubstantiated accusations around at people, don't you?

And the reason there is a 9-page thread is that everyone here, being white...

How do you know what race EVERYONE on here is? If you'd like, I can put together a list of every single person who has posted in this thread, and you can go down the list, one by one, and list their race and how you came to find out what their race is. Go ahead.

...got immediately uncomfortable when someone called someone else out for posting what is in all likelihood an unconsciously racist topic.

You keep tossing around that word "unconsciously" as if you think it gives you the excuse to accuse people of whatever you want to accuse them of.

"Don't worry that I'm calling you racist, sir... it's okay, because I'm calling you UNCONSCIOUSLY racist, so it's not as bad that way. Nobody will make Klan jokes about you or look at you askance or question things you say about people who happen to be black. They'll know it's not your fault, because you're UNCONSCIOUSLY racist, and you can't help it. And instead of being angry at you, they'll just pity you instead."

Screw that, Ralphie. You don't get to go around calling people racist unless you're prepared to back it up. And thus far, the only actual evidence you've presented to support your accusations is that we've dared to compliment the intelligence of Notre Dame's football players, both black and white.

Negative rep for you. Up until this point I've tried to respect the fact that you and I simply have opposing opinions on this topic, but you've gotten increasingly ridiculous as this thread has gone on. I am GROSSLY offended by your behavior here, and I will no longer stand by and let you lob false accusations at myself and at other posters on here. But all I can really do is hit you with negative rep points on here, so that's what I'll have to settle for.