Lets Talk Defense

[Stealingshrimp]

I believe saying that 'we lost players" isn't a great excuse. We had players that weren't living up to their expectations on offense, and now are. While I am MUCH more confident in games we are favored in, I'm still worried come every Saturday.

The defense is statistically unimproved from last year.
The rush defense that was 4th in the nation is now somewhere in the 40s.
The pass defense is only avg 15 yards less than last year-- and we've played some teams that aren't living up to their hype.
Yards per completion are up by nearly a yard.
We would need 10 sacks in the final 2 games to equal last years total.
Scoring defense is the same.
Red zone TD defense is worse, while red zone total defense is up.

How much of this do you believe is player performance, and coaching performance.
I personally believe it to be about half and half. While we don't have an experienced group, their progess - although very evident- presently still doesn't compare with any of the nations top 25 defenses. It's hard to get angry at the defense, bc we are infact winning games. But if the offense had the same slow improvement-- people would already be out for Weis's head. Thoughts?

 

[GREENJERSEYS'07]

I just think the defense does what it has to when it has to.
I could be proved wrong in a bcs bowl game tho.I've defended the defense all year long up until this point and have never let the 3rd down conversions or the big plays that they have allowed to bother me.
I also think alot of it has to do with notre dame's scoring ability as well.
the domer haters want to say michigan was down
the michigan state game had some offensive turnovers
I don't care what anyone says,but if tennessee had played like they did against notre dame,they probably would be winning the sec east right now.
byu is a passing team,that can pass on anyone
navy is a option team,that can run the ball on anyone
purdue had to make plays in the second half to keep from getting,just blown-out

I really feel that weis knew what he was doing when he hired minter and that probably was his number 1 choice and lou holtz believes in him as well.

true,there could be some more top notch players in key positions in the defense,but they are playing well as a team and continue to get better

I don't think I am so concerned about playing a top notch team in a bcs bowl because of the ability of the coaching staff to make adjustments and the players to do their assignments in a big game like that

I just don't feed into the hype of people saying notre dame is only a half team with no defense.
those are just my opinions

 

[jiggafini19]

Mike Richardson got much better and Ambrose Wooden stepped up. I expect him to be better next season. Ndukewe and Tommy Z are quality safeties.

The linebackers are a good trio. Hoyte had a good year being the only LB returning.

I like the front four because of their grit and toughness. They're a bit undersized, but play hard and focused. That SC game is the image in my mind of these men that will stay with me from this year. I believe all four return next year.

As many regular posters know by now, I am a defense guy. I believe that you cannot win a National title without a dominant defense. Every champion in this new millenium proves that.

But ND has one of the greatest offensive minds in football. Your best D can often be your offense. Once these guys get THEIR players into THEIR system, watch out world.

But I still want the safeties to play deeper.

 

[weisfaninmass]

The defense is statistically unimproved from last year.
The rush defense that was 4th in the nation is now somewhere in the 40s.
The pass defense is only avg 15 yards less than last year-- and we've played some teams that aren't living up to their hype.
Yards per completion are up by nearly a yard.
We would need 10 sacks in the final 2 games to equal last years total.
Scoring defense is the same.
Red zone TD defense is worse, while red zone total defense is up.

This analysis is geared to a Fantasy Football argument. Last year the D gave up 23 passing TD's and had only 9 ints -- none in the last 8 games.

While the D is not a 'shut 'em down' D, they are far from awful which they were last year and this years team is getting better. This D has given up only 12 TD's passing and has 12 int's. Many of the games have been in garbage time (Pitt, Purdue, Washington, BYU, Navy) -- or while the opponent is way behind so they are forced to throw and ND is playing more contain defense.

The biggest need for improvement is the pass rush -- too bad Tuck didn't stay for his senior year.

 

[scooper]

weismass hit the nail on the head. This defense is improving. There are different ways to quantify success on defense. In my mind, points allowed and turnovers are big indicators, as much as if not more than yards.

Take a look at some of the guys that have improved tremendously from last season, specifically the corners. The linebackers have played well also, as have the DT's.

That said, there is still room to improve and I think that improvement means in infusion of talent and more work and experience for the guys on the roster.

Any way you look at it, the D-line is not deep and is not explosive. Laws-Landri are good DT's but neither is dominant and the guys behind them are either very young or converted DE's and LB's. There is also a lack of speed on the ends. Not to mention lack of depth. We've lost the two guys fighting for a starting spot to suspension/injury. Talley is filling in well, but he's raw.

The safeties need to play smarter, though both show a propensity toward big plays and both are tough big time hitters.

Overall, considering new schemes, lack of depth, inexperience and frankly-poor recent recruiting, I think this unit has shown itself very well.

If all the returners show the kind of improvement that Wooden and Richardson have shown this season, next year's D is promising.

 

[Vince Young]

Last year, we gave up 24.1 points per game. This year we're giving up 24.3, a negligible increase. Syracuse and Stanford aren't exactly offensive powerhouses, so that 24.3 will likely drop before season's end.

In contrast, last year we scored... well, looky here, 24.1 points per game. (Makes sense... we did go 6-6 after all.) This year we're scoring 38.7 points per game. That's dragged down by our gut-'em-out 17-point game against Michigan, and will likely go up against our final opponents.

Both our offense and our defense have many of the same players from last year. The offense is run by Charlie Weis, an offensive genius by all accounts. The defense is run by Rick Minter, who while certainly competent can hardly be considered a defensive genius.

So, the offense took great leaps forward, while the defense stayed the same. Hardly a shocking surprise.

To expect a Weis-like turnaround on defense is simply unrealistic. A genius like Weis can get instant results. A mere mortal like Minter is just going to need more time. And given his success at Notre Dame in previous years, I think he's earned that time.

 

[Guest]

statistically the defense hasn't improved much, but I think its much better this year. You don't have every tom, dick, and harry throwing for 5 TD's against us this year, the red zone defense has played very well. We also did a nice job against leinart(up until the 4th and 9 anyway). Wooden has impressed me, he's done a fine job for a first year starter, and rarely gets beat. Wish Ty would've started him, or at least given him some playing time last year.

Next year we return most of the defensive starters, they'll be an experienced bunch, and you can never underestimate an experienced defense in college. Add in all the great defensive recruits we're bringing in this year, and I think Minter will have alot more to work with.

 

[Domer95]

I believe saying that 'we lost players" isn't a great excuse. We had players that weren't living up to their expectations on offense, and now are. While I am MUCH more confident in games we are favored in, I'm still worried come every Saturday.

The defense is statistically unimproved from last year.
The rush defense that was 4th in the nation is now somewhere in the 40s.
The pass defense is only avg 15 yards less than last year-- and we've played some teams that aren't living up to their hype.
Yards per completion are up by nearly a yard.
We would need 10 sacks in the final 2 games to equal last years total.
Scoring defense is the same.
Red zone TD defense is worse, while red zone total defense is up.

How much of this do you believe is player performance, and coaching performance.
I personally believe it to be about half and half. While we don't have an experienced group, their progess - although very evident- presently still doesn't compare with any of the nations top 25 defenses. It's hard to get angry at the defense, bc we are infact winning games. But if the offense had the same slow improvement-- people would already be out for Weis's head. Thoughts?

THANKS for brightening up my workday!!!!

 

[scooper]

Vince, the offense returned much more than the defense. The defense had to replace two starters at corner(Jackson-Ellick), two new starters at LB(Goolsby-Curry), one new starter at safety(Burrell), one starter at DT (Pauly) and two new starters at DE(Budinscak-Tuck). Now you can argue and I would agree that some of the replacements are more athletic than the departed starters. You can also note that some of the replacements played significantly last season. But the fact is only three starters from opening day 04 were on the field for opening day 05. The defense had significant turnover. And it's not like we blew teams out the last couple seasons to get the younger guys experience. The backups are playing these days and I think it will help down the line.

 

[jiggafini19]

Scoring a gillion points a game has helped them, too.

 

[bigdon]

Congradulations to all of you guys for your analysis. All of the points were well documented and thought out.

My own thoughts center on the pass rush (or lack thereof). It is puny by any standards and contributes to the much maligned pass defense which centers on the DB's. Until that improves ND will never have a first class defense.

 

[jiggafini19]

Until that improves ND will never have a first class defense.

It all starts up front on BOTH sides of the ball.

While the O line takes shape in recruiting, the D line seems to be slipping (D tackle anyway). I'm getting worried that ND will lose out on McCoy, Lewis and Kates ending up with nothing.

I don't like the idea of blitzing LB and DBs. The more talented your front four is, the more everyone else can do their jobs.

Wade, Ryan and Mullen can all be solid DEs. I think Wade is going to be a force. The middle is where the big push comes from. DTs open the gaps for DE and LBs to get into or around.

 

[Vince Young]

Vince, the offense returned much more than the defense.

Starters, yes. Players, no. That's why I said "players," not "starters."

"Both our offense and our defense have many of the same players from last year."

 

[KMac151993]

I believe saying that 'we lost players" isn't a great excuse. We had players that weren't living up to their expectations on offense, and now are. While I am MUCH more confident in games we are favored in, I'm still worried come every Saturday.
The defense is statistically unimproved from last year.
We would need 10 sacks in the final 2 games to equal last years total.
Thoughts?

We ended up with the same amount of sacks as last year-30 and more lost yardage. I think the front four played very well this year.

 

[jiggafini19]

Stealingshrimp's point was proven against Stanford, however.

I like this front four. They maximize their talent and play as hard as anyone. The real issue here is the secondary and the coverage they're in.

Those four guys = two quarterbacks and two receivers in high school. That means we're looking at very little actual full time college DB experinece amongst them.

Richardson and Wooden cannot cover anyone man on man. Matt Leinert knew that. Zbikowski and Ndukewe are hard hitters. Fierce hitters.

Why not drop them back more and help the corners?

With better coverage, the front four will get even more opportunities to make plays.

 

[ND Lifer]

Jiggs is right: DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS.

I believe the defense improved this year even though the stats don't really show it. The biggest blow to our defense was at the DE position. We obviously lost Tuck to the pros. But we also lost Leitko and Frome also. This really killed our pass rush and put a lot more pressure on the D backs. The opposing QB's just had too much time to throw. I think Landri and Laws did a great job in the middle. We just had no pressure from the outside. VA couldn't do it all by himself.

The LB's did not pass cover excetionaly well, except for Crumm. This also put added pressure on the DB's.

I think Wooden and Richardson did a very creditable job considering the circumstances. Zibby and CN did bite to much on play action fakes, but seem to have improved on that in the last few games.

The offense helped the defense tremendously by rolling up points and taking advantage of the "time of possession", which limited our opposition's quantity of plays.

Next year should show vast inprovement in the "D". VA is back and Leitko and Frome should be back as well. With Talley and Brown geting experience this year, the DE position should be solid. Laws and Landri return as do all,the DB's. LB will be the BIG question mark with only Crumm returning. Then we have all the new recruits that Charlie is bringing in to help the secondary.

All of this will allow Minter to be more agressive next year and have more complex schemes. I think he was handcuffed this year trying to cover up for the inexperience and certain weaknesses on the "D".

Now all we have to do is have the offense control the game in the BCS Bowl and win in the same fashion we did during the regular season. Then look forward to next year. With the offensive circus we will have next year, and the improved defense, we have a real shot at the NC!!!!!

 

[bigdon]

Stealingshrimp's point was proven against Stanford, however.
I like this front four. They maximize their talent and play as hard as anyone. The real issue here is the secondary and the coverage they're in.
Those four guys = two quarterbacks and two receivers in high school. That means we're looking at very little actual full time college DB experinece amongst them.
Richardson and Wooden cannot cover anyone man on man. Matt Leinert knew that. Zbikowski and Ndukewe are hard hitters. Fierce hitters.
Why not drop them back more and help the corners?
With better coverage, the front four will get even more opportunities to make plays.

I can agree with almost every point except the one that says (in so many words) "our defense does what it has to do to win". If that is true why don't they do it all the time?

No matter what the reason, our defense just is not top flight. Statistics show that again this year.

The front four is playing good football but it is small and lacks any rush capability, compared to the better teams.

The DB's are aggressive but lack experience and speed. The first think that Weis did was to recruit in that area. I think Walls and McNeil will get a lot of playing time next year.

The best pass defense I've seen this year in any game was (forgive me while I gag) Fla against FSU. Those DB's are fast as hell and hit with authority.

Without getting boring I will just say we need to get better in ALL areas before we can think NC.

 

[jiggafini19]

Zbikowski ran a 4.3 in HS but that was when he weighed about 185-190. I think the bulk he put on slows him a bit...and he's still pretty shifty.

 

[irish4life99]

Congradulations to all of you guys for your analysis. All of the points were well documented and thought out.
My own thoughts center on the pass rush (or lack thereof). It is puny by any standards and contributes to the much maligned pass defense which centers on the DB's. Until that improves ND will never have a first class defense.

I agree on this post. If you took the example of the Stanford game, we still got sacks, but they were coverage sacks. Some plays seem like they had all day to pick a reciever. I don't care how good your secondary is, they cant cover the recievers forever. I think that's 80% the reason why teams can pass on ND. Also, it seems like the defensive scheme brings the safties way up to help stop the runs. So many times they have one on one with little or no help from the safties. Which shows that the defensive coaches lack confidence in the DL. I sure hope we can bring in some DL recruits. Seem weve done great recruiting all the offensive positons, but lacking some depth on the defense. With that said, I like Minter, we'll be better next year.

 

[scooper]

I can agree with almost every point except the one that says (in so many words) "our defense does what it has to do to win". If that is true why don't they do it all the time?

I won't argue that the defense doesn't need to improve. But you can't pin losses entirely on the defense. Especially the MSU game. The offense is directly responsible for a 14 point swing with a goalline fumble and an INT returned for a TD. That was a team loss.

 

[bigdon]

I won't argue that the defense doesn't need to improve. But you can't pin losses entirely on the defense. Especially the MSU game. The offense is directly responsible for a 14 point swing with a goalline fumble and an INT returned for a TD. That was a team loss.

I was at the game and you are correct. It was a team loss and for the reasons you state.

 

[jiggafini19]

Michigan State was a loss for various reasons...and they were about an inch from winning that game with a safety. Ulimately, the defense gave up too many big plays. As indicated by the numbers....

Breaking that game down, Notre Dame allowed 488 yards of offense, 18 first downs on 63 plays (7.7 per play). MSU returned a pick back for a score. While Schwapp did fumble on the goal line, they still drove the length of the field to get into the end zone.

MSU committed three turnovers in that game as well.

The big play killed them, as it did against SC and almost did against Stanford.

 

[domerfor life]

Michigan State was a loss for various reasons...and they were about an inch from winning that game with a safety. Ulimately, the defense gave up too many big plays. As indicated by the numbers....
Breaking that game down, Notre Dame allowed 488 yards of offense, 18 first downs on 63 plays (7.7 per play). MSU returned a pick back for a score. While Schwapp did fumble on the goal line, they still drove the length of the field to get into the end zone.
MSU committed three turnovers in that game as well.
The big play killed them, as it did against SC and almost did against Stanford.

Jigg I hear what you are saying. However, don't forget that Brady threw a pick-six and could do nothing with the ball once MSU turned it over with a couple of minutes left to go in the game. Yes the defense gave up way too many big plays, but the offense was equally at fault. They blew numerous chances that could have decided the outcome of the game. That was a total team loss in every way.

 

[jiggafini19]

Jigg I hear what you are saying. However, don't forget that Brady threw a pick-six and could do nothing with the ball once MSU turned it over with a couple of minutes left to go in the game. Yes the defense gave up way too many big plays, but the offense was equally at fault. They blew numerous chances that could have decided the outcome of the game. That was a total team loss in every way.

There's no doubt. I agree with you 100%.

My point is had the D eliminated the big plays they allowed, it's a win.

Stat wise, it wasn't that bad at all. Big plays hurt.

 

[domerfor life]

There's no doubt. I agree with you 100%.
My point is had the D eliminated the big plays they allowed, it's a win.
Stat wise, it wasn't that bad at all. Big plays hurt.

Yeah, I think I said "just stop them one time" at least 10 times during that game. It's was just frustrating to watch.

 

[bigdon]

There's no doubt. I agree with you 100%.
My point is had the D eliminated the big plays they allowed, it's a win.
Stat wise, it wasn't that bad at all. Big plays hurt.

What's the old saying "if if's and buts were candy and nuts what a wonderful Christmas we'd have" (or something like that). IF Schwaap had not fumbled. IF brady doesn't throw that Int, IF the D doesn't give up the big play, IF Wooden is half a step quicker we beat USC. etc,etc,etc. I am not being cynical . I can replay the season and we could be UNDEFEATED "IF". The "IF'S" are the things we try to correct and look forward to next year.

 

[guff]

If you boiled the season down into one phrase it would be too many big plays. Way too many. The SC 4th and 9 play will haunt me forever.

Next year's NC hopes rest on the defense and I'm not sure how much improvment they can make. Looking at it today next year's schedule is an absolute beast.

 

[bigdon]

If you boiled the season down into one phrase it would be too many big plays. Way too many. The SC 4th and 9 play will haunt me forever.

Next year's NC hopes rest on the defense and I'm not sure how much improvment they can make. Looking at it today next year's schedule is an absolute beast.

You are 100% right! But those big plays were result of a defense that is lacking in a number of areas. Pass rush that is weak, Small front four, DB's that are a step too slow and inexperienced. There are a lot of holes to plug.

 

[jiggafini19]

If you boiled the season down into one phrase it would be too many big plays. Way too many. The SC 4th and 9 play will haunt me forever.

Next year's NC hopes rest on the defense and I'm not sure how much improvment they can make. Looking at it today next year's schedule is an absolute beast.

You are 100% right! But those big plays were result of a defense that is lacking in a number of areas. Pass rush that is weak, Small front four, DB's that are a step too slow and inexperienced. There are a lot of holes to plug.

Guff and BigDon, this is one I'm getting at. The defense isn't all that bad whn you really break it down. But there are things that MUST be improved upon in spring. 9 of these guys are coming back next year. Unless they show major improvement, ND could be in trouble.

I expect to see Walls and McNeil on the field for sure. Expect Richardson and another freshman linebacker to see time as well.

D Line concerns me. I don't think Wade or Ryan will be ready. There still isn't a DT in this class, but one would hope that McCoy or Butch Lewis could get aboard. ND has pretty much backed out of the Jason Kates saga and Butch Lewis might be heading to UGA.

Hopefully Hand and/or Kuntz can get into the mix.