Interesting Read

[dre1919]

Irish Recruiting Struggles

This echoes something I've been saying for a few years and most people who hear me dismiss me as crazy. I love Notre Dame as a university, but am by far and away a bigger fan of the football team than anything else. I didn't go to Notre Dame, and as a working professional, probably won't have the time to go there now. But the football team is my passion when it comes to all things Irish.

I have long since thought that Notre Dame trying to compete at the level of other division one powerhouses, when the university hamstrings itself with very high admissions standards, is ludicrous. To put it another way, think about Stanford, Duke, Vanderbilt, Harvard, Yale, or Brown. Now, imagine each of those schools having a rabid fan base that each season demands they win the national championship...or at the very least, beat teams such as USC and Michigan and win a major bowl. They'd be crazy right? Well, it's the same thing we do as Irish fans. We enjoy the fact that the university has these wonderful standards and high admission rates, so that we can point to the school and say they are "classy" and "at least out players stay out of jail and can read". Yet, we expect to be able to beat USC, Texas, Alabama, Florida and the Ohio State's of the world not only on the recruiting trail but on the field? That's ridiculous...and a reality that is starting to destroy the Notre Dame legacy.

Back in the old days, Notre Dame was one of the only schools that would and could recruit nationally. They also used their influence in situations such as "nationally broadcast television" to woo players in. But, the landscape has caught up and passed ND by like a relic. While those advantages used to be a weapon, now the playing field is level. In fact, it isn't level at all...other schools can offer the same thing, yet not require such high admissions. Notre Dame can continue to push the excellent education, but the reality of today's world is that an athlete can spring to the pros as a junior or senior and make more money with just his signing bonus than his Notre Dame degree might make him in his life. Why go through the tough rigors in the class room when USC or Texas, with their warm weather and pretty coeds, are calling your cell phone too? It just doesn't make sense when you see it as a non-biased teenager waiting to be a millionaire.

Notre Dame has enjoyed more than it's fair share of success in my opinion. We should have went the direction of Harvard or Yale, yet we got both academic and athletic success for a long time and successfully straddled the line for as long as we could. Now, the time has come in my opinion to make tough choices about the future. What do people want out of Notre Dame? A powerhouse football program, or a powerhouse academic institution? Sure, you can be both at a modest level...programs such as Stanford and Vanderbilt do a good job of being good football teams (some seasons) and good academic schools (every season). They pride themselves on good grades and look forward to a successful season and a bowl berth/win. Dreaming of the National Championship for some place like that is unrealistic because they "got real" a long time ago.

So what does this mean for Notre Dame? Well, to me, it means you simply must pick your battles. You cannot realistically expect to recruit against and compete with schools such as Oklahoma, Florida, Texas and USC when they have much lower academic standards and are essentially spring boards to the NFL. Year in and year out, these teams are competing for the national championship...not Notre Dame. Sure, we may win one here and there...like the one we pulled off in 1988, but being a national power year in and year out? Not going to happen no matter whose coaching. Sorry, to me, that's the cold hard facts. If it never changes, I'm okay with that in one way: Of course I do not want to lose, but it's all about perspective. If by a "successful season to be proud of" you consider a winning record, a bowl win (any bowl) and great graduation rates, then yes...I'm perfectly fine with that. But, if I or anybody else expects championships and a near permanent place in the Top 10..then we really gotta start getting real and drop the academic expectations. I'm fine with that as well because as I said, I am a fan of the football team and not the university. I'd rather see us become a football factory, but that isn't what Notre Dame was built on.

Top college football schools are football factories now. They made a choice along the way...football players or student athletes. They made their choice and have been happy with it. A few years back, Oklahoma was near last in graduation rate for their football players yet they were in the national championship. They made a choice. At some point, Notre Dame is going to have to make that choice too. I believe with the special nature of Notre Dame, with it's history, legacy and prestige, they should choose to keep the academic standards. But, with that, we should look at ourselves more like the Ivy League or the Service Academies. Playing us is a special treat, but not one that factors into the national championship chase. We could even join a conference for the automatic bowl tie-ins and conference championship...a sure sign of a "successful season". But sitting back and expecting to have the best of both worlds, in my opinion, is just unrealistic and egotistical.

 

[NDOM]

Irish Recruiting Struggles

This echoes something I've been saying for a few years and most people who hear me dismiss me as crazy. I love Notre Dame as a university, but am by far and away a bigger fan of the football team than anything else. I didn't go to Notre Dame, and as a working professional, probably won't have the time to go there now. But the football team is my passion when it comes to all things Irish.

I have long since thought that Notre Dame trying to compete at the level of other division one powerhouses, when the university hamstrings itself with very high admissions standards, is ludicrous. To put it another way, think about Stanford, Duke, Vanderbilt, Harvard, Yale, or Brown. Now, imagine each of those schools having a rabid fan base that each season demands they win the national championship...or at the very least, beat teams such as USC and Michigan and win a major bowl. They'd be crazy right? Well, it's the same thing we do as Irish fans. We enjoy the fact that the university has these wonderful standards and high admission rates, so that we can point to the school and say they are "classy" and "at least out players stay out of jail and can read". Yet, we expect to be able to beat USC, Texas, Alabama, Florida and the Ohio State's of the world not only on the recruiting trail but on the field? That's ridiculous...and a reality that is starting to destroy the Notre Dame legacy.

Back in the old days, Notre Dame was one of the only schools that would and could recruit nationally. They also used their influence in situations such as "nationally broadcast television" to woo players in. But, the landscape has caught up and passed ND by like a relic. While those advantages used to be a weapon, now the playing field is level. In fact, it isn't level at all...other schools can offer the same thing, yet not require such high admissions. Notre Dame can continue to push the excellent education, but the reality of today's world is that an athlete can spring to the pros as a junior or senior and make more money with just his signing bonus than his Notre Dame degree might make him in his life. Why go through the tough rigors in the class room when USC or Texas, with their warm weather and pretty coeds, are calling your cell phone too? It just doesn't make sense when you see it as a non-biased teenager waiting to be a millionaire.

Notre Dame has enjoyed more than it's fair share of success in my opinion. We should have went the direction of Harvard or Yale, yet we got both academic and athletic success for a long time and successfully straddled the line for as long as we could. Now, the time has come in my opinion to make tough choices about the future. What do people want out of Notre Dame? A powerhouse football program, or a powerhouse academic institution? Sure, you can be both at a modest level...programs such as Stanford and Vanderbilt do a good job of being good football teams (some seasons) and good academic schools (every season). They pride themselves on good grades and look forward to a successful season and a bowl berth/win. Dreaming of the National Championship for some place like that is unrealistic because they "got real" a long time ago.

So what does this mean for Notre Dame? Well, to me, it means you simply must pick your battles. You cannot realistically expect to recruit against and compete with schools such as Oklahoma, Florida, Texas and USC when they have much lower academic standards and are essentially spring boards to the NFL. Year in and year out, these teams are competing for the national championship...not Notre Dame. Sure, we may win one here and there...like the one we pulled off in 1988, but being a national power year in and year out? Not going to happen no matter whose coaching. Sorry, to me, that's the cold hard facts. If it never changes, I'm okay with that in one way: Of course I do not want to lose, but it's all about perspective. If by a "successful season to be proud of" you consider a winning record, a bowl win (any bowl) and great graduation rates, then yes...I'm perfectly fine with that. But, if I or anybody else expects championships and a near permanent place in the Top 10..then we really gotta start getting real and drop the academic expectations. I'm fine with that as well because as I said, I am a fan of the football team and not the university. I'd rather see us become a football factory, but that isn't what Notre Dame was built on.

Top college football schools are football factories now. They made a choice along the way...football players or student athletes. They made their choice and have been happy with it. A few years back, Oklahoma was near last in graduation rate for their football players yet they were in the national championship. They made a choice. At some point, Notre Dame is going to have to make that choice too. I believe with the special nature of Notre Dame, with it's history, legacy and prestige, they should choose to keep the academic standards. But, with that, we should look at ourselves more like the Ivy League or the Service Academies. Playing us is a special treat, but not one that factors into the national championship chase. We could even join a conference for the automatic bowl tie-ins and conference championship...a sure sign of a "successful season". But sitting back and expecting to have the best of both worlds, in my opinion, is just unrealistic and egotistical.

Huh? So what are you then?

 

[Sureal]

I don't get the argument in regards to admisssions. Did ND not just get two-three consecutive top ten classes? Teams that have relaxed admissions have not recruited that well... In other words:strawman.

Direct the problem to where it is. Coaching.

If ND has the talent and they are not playing to their potential then how is it that the admissions are to blame?

 

[dre1919]

I meant "I love Notre Dame as a University" in a general sense as if to say "I love them and all...but, my loyalty resides with the football team". I am a loyal Irish football fanatic who sees a team I'd love to have become a powerhouse, football factory along the lines of the USC's and Florida's of the world. The student athlete GPA's are less important to me than bowls and NC's. Now, if Notre Dame went the other way and said "Well, we're going to focus on being academic first and athletic second" I would still support them. It's the ambiguity and the arrogance of thinking we can do both which is frustrating to me as a fan.

How are those top ten recruiting classes faring compared to other top ten classes at other schools? Sure, the coaching is the far and away problem. But, I'm just saying...especially in the long run...I just don't think we can continue to think we can be both types of school and expect top flight results. In today's culture, that doesn't add up.

 

[NDOM]

I meant "I love Notre Dame as a University" in a general sense as if to say "I love them and all...but, my loyalty resides with the football team". I am a loyal Irish football fanatic who sees a team I'd love to have become a powerhouse, football factory along the lines of the USC's and Florida's of the world. The student athlete GPA's are less important to me than bowls and NC's. Now, if Notre Dame went the other way and said "Well, we're going to focus on being academic first and athletic second" I would still support them. It's the ambiguity and the arrogance of thinking we can do both which is frustrating to me as a fan.

Gotcha. I do enjoy your post. You have alot to say and its valid.

 

[IrishAddiction]

anybody remember Jonathan Baldwin, that one reciever who wanted to commit here, but couldnt because of academic admissions???oh yeah, hes the guy who beat us in the pitt game. Admissions need to lighten up, charlie needs to go, and Urban needs to be the next head coach. period.

 

[Sureal]

I meant "I love Notre Dame as a University" in a general sense as if to say "I love them and all...but, my loyalty resides with the football team". I am a loyal Irish football fanatic who sees a team I'd love to have become a powerhouse, football factory along the lines of the USC's and Florida's of the world. The student athlete GPA's are less important to me than bowls and NC's. Now, if Notre Dame went the other way and said "Well, we're going to focus on being academic first and athletic second" I would still support them. It's the ambiguity and the arrogance of thinking we can do both which is frustrating to me as a fan.

How are those top ten recruiting classes faring compared to other top ten classes at other schools? Sure, the coaching is the far and away problem. But, I'm just saying...especially in the long run...I just don't think we can continue to think we can be both types of school and expect top flight results. In today's culture, that doesn't add up.

Depends on the coach. This is why ND is one of the toughest places to coach at. I see your point. We are at a crossroads (again). This guy can recruit but damn it get some guys in here that can coach these student-athletes up. I really do believe it can be done and done consistantly. Call me crazy if you want...

Be quiet Neutered...

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

I don't get the argument in regards to admisssions. Did ND not just get two-three consecutive top ten classes? Teams that have relaxed admissions have not recruited that well... In other words:strawman.

Direct the problem to where it is. Coaching.

If ND has the talent and they are not playing to their potential then how is it that the admissions are to blame?

Here's the problem with the "but we're recruiting great" argument. Nothing, and I do mean nothing (including the f-ing BCS) is more subjective than recruiting grades. To wit; A fellow who's been a scout once told me that recuriting services will bump up a players 'star' ranking if an ND, Michigan, Oklahoma or FSU is recruiting him. It just happens. So saying we have great recruiting classes is relatively meaningless unless that talent is developed on the field.

Admissions does in fact matter, and everyone from Lou to Ara has pointed that out recently. Lets not kid ourselves. The OP is right; we are at a watershed moment for the program where a decision on the direction of it is going to be made, intentionally or not. We'll either be a relevant program again or be a nice historical 'remember when' story.

 

[dre1919]

Well, remember how good T. J. Duckett was at Michigan State a few years ago? He wanted to go to Notre Dame too but couldn't get in.

I mean, it'd be great to be able to hold on to both the high academic expectations, the rules against JUCO transfers AND get the top talent in the country too. But, that's just asking a tremendous amount from any coaching regime.

Thanks NDOM!

BTW, I think the watershed moment concept is very poignant. It's why we keep seeing these articles by people like Gene Wojciechowski on ESPN about how since we aren't honoring five year windows for coaches anymore we're becoming "just another football factory". Well, I don't think we are...yet. I think we're caught in the middle of trying to be too many things to too many people. We're living in the past, and trying to hold on to it while trying to adjust to the present and prepare for the future. We want to be a football factory powerhouse, but we want all our kids to be bright and good citizens. We want everything and we're sinking trying to get it all.

 

[Sureal]

Good points and they are to be considered.

This is an old debate that I had back in the day with some guys in the USAF (Hanscom AFB) in the mid 90's...

The question becomes then what makes ND special and why is it special? Is it because of the NC's/winning pct. ? Or because of the high-standard that ND has kept throughout the years?

Since the points have been taken in consideration I'm having to ask that question myself.

The original reason why I liked ND was because they were the total opposite of Miami...

 

[Sureal]

edit:delete

 

[WaveDomer]

This response will probably piss a bunch of people off. But here it goes. I didn't go to ND either. My dad graduated ND in '67 and my mom went to St. Mary's and graduated a year after him. I grew up in a Notre Dame house. I have 3 uncles that went too. I grew up rooting for ND, going to games at the Meadowlands and at ND. My goal was to go to ND but I was a slackass in high school and didn't get in. I went to Tulane. Now, having said that... I take exception to anyone who hasn't gone to the school who wants them to lower standards in order to win. You are entitled to your opinion, but I think it is up to graduates of the school and others who work there to determine the requirements. I know the world is full of subway alums and it's awesome. But the ND family should be the ones determining standards at the school.

 

[dre1919]

No, I agree WaveDomer...and like I said, I'd still be a fan either way they went (football factory / academic football school). It's just I'd like whomever makes the decisions to choose and call it a day. I find a lot of the reason people hate on Notre Dame is the perceived arrogance. The perceived idea that Notre Dame can be all things at once "just because they're Notre Dame". Plus, having things like the ND Clause in the BCS agreement does nothing to dispute this opinion. I'm not a fan of that clause because even though I understand they put it in there because ND is Independent, it still isn't right.

Other schools that come from crappy or smaller conferences have to sit back and wait/hope for a BCS bid just as they would if they were an Independent. But, Notre Dame does not. That isn't really very fair. Sure, our storied history, winning percentage, lineage and place in the college football landscape over a century may have bought us that out of "respect"...but still. It looks arrogant.

My point is, I would like us to sell out and become just as powerful as the other top schools gunning for National Championships or simply restructure, decide other things are more important, and actually earn the right to be arrogant about something if we wanted to be (academics and morality).

 

[realitycheck]

The standards for ND are no different than any other college when it comes to HS prospects, anybody who doesn't believe me should go check out Paddy Mullen, Robert Hughes, and Ian Williams's grades & test scores

The only thing holding ND back the last 15 years has been incompetent coaching.

 

[NDMontana]

The bottom line is that Notre Dame can either become another Nortwestern type institution or they are going to have to lower standards for football players. The school's administration is fooling themselves if they think that they can win* with the standards they've set.

In reality the administration may not even be trying to fool us. Perhaps they already view the school as a Northwestern type institution but don't feel that they need to come out and say as much. In doing so they would ruin the illusion that ND is a relevant football program and cost the school millions of dollars in the process.

I've mentioned, in numerous posts, that it's the blue collar types that tune in, buy the merchandise and will probably never be able to afford a ticket. If the school runs that segment of society off, they stand to lose big and they are well aware of that. The question is whether they realize the imminency of that moment?

I'm not sure it's not too late already. When I was growing up, a lot of kids were Notre Dame fans. You couldn't turn your head without seeing an ND hat. I doing some officiating and coaching at the high school/junior high levels and I can tell you that there are very, very few Notre Dame hats. Hell, even the kids in our Catholic School System (of which I'm a product) aren't wearing Notre Dame hats or shirts. I see plenty of Florida and Texas, on the other hand.

The crossroads may have already came and passed. Even if it hasn't, do you think the administration knows that such a moment is in the offing?


*When I say win I mean compete for National Championships, not 8-4 seasons.

 

[WaveDomer]

No, I agree WaveDomer...and like I said, I'd still be a fan either way they went (football factory / academic football school). It's just I'd like whomever makes the decisions to choose and call it a day. I find a lot of the reason people hate on Notre Dame is the perceived arrogance. The perceived idea that Notre Dame can be all things at once "just because they're Notre Dame". Plus, having things like the ND Clause in the BCS agreement does nothing to dispute this opinion. I'm not a fan of that clause because even though I understand they put it in there because ND is Independent, it still isn't right.

Other schools that come from crappy or smaller conferences have to sit back and wait/hope for a BCS bid just as they would if they were an Independent. But, Notre Dame does not. That isn't really very fair. Sure, our storied history, winning percentage, lineage and place in the college football landscape over a century may have bought us that out of "respect"...but still. It looks arrogant.

My point is, I would like us to sell out and become just as powerful as the other top schools gunning for National Championships or simply restructure, decide other things are more important, and actually earn the right to be arrogant about something if we wanted to be (academics and morality).

In a cruel twist of fate, I actually go through this same thing with Tulane football. The academic standards there are similar to ND. Actually, in the late 1920's they declined a Rose Bowl invitation in order to keep the players in class. Many Tulane fans want the Admin to let in JUCO's provide special tutors and allow for athlete friendly majors. Tulane has a storied football history, but hasn't had too much success in a long time. However, the problem there is similar to ND's, I think, in that there have been poor decisions made by the Admin. In '98 Tulane went undefeated under Tommy Bowden and ended up 7 in the nation. Bowden left before the bowl game and R. Rodriguez took over. Rodriguez came up with the spead offense at Tulane. He figured that he would be the next HC. They passed on him and took Chris Scelfo. We finally have an Admin that is serious about sports and have hired Bob Toledo. My point is that with good decisions by the Admin, ND can win with the academic standards still in place.

 

[Irishlew]

The standards for ND are no different than any other college when it comes to HS prospects, anybody who doesn't believe me should go check out Paddy Mullen, Robert Hughes, and Ian Williams's grades & test scores

The only thing holding ND back the last 15 years has been incompetent coaching.

where's a link i could check out to see them?

 

[Irishlew]

Hey WaveDomer....i love Matt Forte, what says u?

 

[TC_57]

IMO, ND's can take two steps toward helping return the program to prominence. The 1st, as mentioned earlier, is the adjustment of the admission standards or policies. There was a point in time when ND took a chance on a borderline student-athlete. (ex. Tony Rice). CW teams have consistently averaged a 3.0 gpa over the last 6 semesters. But tell the truth, how many here truly care about that if they are not winning football games? Don't get mad, I am just keeping it real. I have read very few posts about the academic and moral development of these kids. You have a kid that plays for Urban Meyer that shoots off a AK47 and he is still on the team. This is the coach that most posters here want to be the next coach at ND?

Second, I think that redshirt policy should be revisited. Right now, you need to have a degree in order to play a 5th year at ND. This gives ND one less year to develop their athletes. For example, If Dayne Crist does not graduate in 4 yrs, his sitting out this year means nothing. It also means that ND football players are carrying a much heavier course load than the players at other schools. The more time they spend on their course load, the less time they are spending developing their football skills. If these guys were also allowed 5 yrs to graduate, it would go a long way towards leveling the playing field.

 

[WaveDomer]

Hey WaveDomer....i love Matt Forte, what says u?

Oh man. He was incredible his senior year. Over 2,000 yards with 23 touchdowns. He ran for 200 yards in 5 games and 300 in 2 games. And he did this while every team knew he was Tulane's only real weapon. He also graduated with a degree in finance. These guys are out there. I just have a problem in general with having to lower standards. Hey, I have a novel idea, how about the rest of the NCAA raise their standards?

 

[WaveDomer]

To clarify, I don't have a huge problem with borderline students. As long as they take the classes, get the grades, and graduate. A lot of people don't do well in school for whatever reason, but they still work hard. I just think at some point people lose touch with what a university is meant to do. They aren't meant to win football games. They are meant to educate. Hopefully they win games too. But if all I care about it winning, I'll just pay attention to the NFL.

 

[88rice9]

Isn't the fact that Notre Dame tries to do both the thing that makes them special? They are one of the few schools that historically has tried to be excellent in all things. If you deemphasize either the football or the academics, you cheapen what Notre Dame means.

 

[jonesman]

The RECRUITING AND ADMISSIONS argument is totally NOT valid. Let me give you some food for thought.

First, if the players we are recruiting are not that good or well regarded, then why the heck are Urban and the Poodle continuing to chase them after they commit. Don't tell me these guys can't judge skill players. Don't tell me that they just want to harrass our recruits for no reason.

Second, we have recruited 3 recruiting classes in the top 10 since CW arrived. You guys all say how Rivals and ESPN have it out for ND, so why would they make us top in recruiting.

Finally and most important, lets look at the players and positions.

QB - Dayne Crist and Jimmy Clausen. Both 5 star players that every major University was chasing. USC was salivating to have both of them. Yes, JC has struggled of late, but not all his fault.

RB - Aldridge was 5* who happened to get a knee injury. Allen broke a leg his senior year in HS, but still was a 4* and is very talented. Hughes was a 4* stud.
Cierre Wood has Reggie Bush type talent and every school in the Pac 10 is begging for him.

WR - Floyd was a 5* on everyones rating. Walker was highly covitted 4* who played in UArmour Allstar. Goodman was 4* who played up to all the talent at AAA game. Golden was coveted by UT and other SEC teams. Shaq has committed and he was wanted by USC who already has 10 WR's.

TE - Rudolph was 5* wanted by all. He has shown major talent. Ragone was 4* who got injured as a senior, otherwise would have been rated even higher.

OT - Sam Young was 5* top rated tackle. Matt Romine was 4* who had his choice of major programs. He was a stud at the AAAA game.

OG - T. Robinson was 5* guard who Nebraska and every other Big 12 school was dying to have. Stewart was behomouth 4* wanted by most southern powers.

OC - Wenger was 4*. Cave was 4* and show dominance over the best NT in the country, Omar Hunter.

CB - Walls should have been 5* but shoulder injury senior year held him to 4*. McNeil was 4* who held Percy Harvin in check at the AAA game. Gray was 4* who was wanted by several big SEC programs.

Safety - The only position we don't have a current 4 star playing. Bruton and McCarthy were 3*. The younger McCarthy who is being redshirted is a 4* stud athlete wanted by OSU, PSU and most of the Big Ten. Seke Motto is Florida stud 4* who UF wanted many others want.

LB - Brian Smith was 4* before ND even got in the mix. He was committed to Iowa and then ND. Steve Filer 4* that all the major Big 10 schools wanted. Harrison Smith was a 4* athlete that Tennessee was begging to have along with most of the SEC. Anthony McDonald was 4* LB that USC was hoping to land.

DE - Fleming was 4* stud that all the Big Ten wanted. Ethan Johson was beast 4* player that every team in the Pac 10 wanted. KLM was Texas 4* that was wanted by all the Big 12.

DT - Tyler Stockton is highly rated 4* DT that many Big East schools want. Ian Williams was 3* recruit in FL that many SEC schools wanted. Sean Cwynar was wanted by all Big Ten schools.

As you can see by the above, we are getting our fair share of the major talents out of high school. We are not going to get every kid we chase, but we are also winning many of the battles. Yes, we lost on Baldwin last year, but we won on many many more. Further, why take a kid who most likely will not make it academically at ND. Trust me, Urban, Pete and the like are not targeting ND players just to piss of ND and stockpile our recruits. With scholarship limitations, teams cannot afford to take players they don't need. The days of OSU, UM and ND stockpiling players just so other schools don't get them is long gone. Look at the list of schools who have offered our recruits. It is not MAC, WAC or lower level schools. It is the premier schools of the major conferences. Those schools did not offer these kids for shits and giggles. They got offers because they are talented.

The RECRUITING AND ADMISSIONS theory does NOT fly and holds not a drop of water. Drop that damn arguement FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Start doing your research before you throw that business my way again.

 

[NDMontana]

Isn't the fact that Notre Dame tries to do both the thing that makes them special? They are one of the few schools that historically has tried to be excellent in all things. If you deemphasize either the football or the academics, you cheapen what Notre Dame means.

You're right. The problem is that 15 years of irrelevance proves that you can't be all things to all people. The notion of being an academic and football powerhouse is nothing more than gimmickry at this point. If ND's greatest desire is to be an acclaimed academic institution (which it is) that produces outstanding leaders (which it does), than we're going to have to let go of our unreal hopes and expectations for the football team.

 

[tankjeep]

I meant "I love Notre Dame as a University" in a general sense as if to say "I love them and all...but, my loyalty resides with the football team". I am a loyal Irish football fanatic who sees a team I'd love to have become a powerhouse, football factory along the lines of the USC's and Florida's of the world. The student athlete GPA's are less important to me than bowls and NC's. Now, if Notre Dame went the other way and said "Well, we're going to focus on being academic first and athletic second" I would still support them. It's the ambiguity and the arrogance of thinking we can do both which is frustrating to me as a fan.

How are those top ten recruiting classes faring compared to other top ten classes at other schools? Sure, the coaching is the far and away problem. But, I'm just saying...especially in the long run...I just don't think we can continue to think we can be both types of school and expect top flight results. In today's culture, that doesn't add up.

how can you compare one recruiting class of a school to another? especially if the coach doesn't develop the talent. we may never know how good these players can become if c'dub stays on as the head coach.

 

[tankjeep]

The RECRUITING AND ADMISSIONS argument is totally NOT valid. Let me give you some food for thought.

First, if the players we are recruiting are not that good or well regarded, then why the heck are Urban and the Poodle continuing to chase them after they commit. Don't tell me these guys can't judge skill players. Don't tell me that they just want to harrass our recruits for no reason.

Second, we have recruited 3 recruiting classes in the top 10 since CW arrived. You guys all say how Rivals and ESPN have it out for ND, so why would they make us top in recruiting.

Finally and most important, lets look at the players and positions.

QB - Dayne Crist and Jimmy Clausen. Both 5 star players that every major University was chasing. USC was salivating to have both of them. Yes, JC has struggled of late, but not all his fault.

RB - Aldridge was 5* who happened to get a knee injury. Allen broke a leg his senior year in HS, but still was a 4* and is very talented. Hughes was a 4* stud.
Cierre Wood has Reggie Bush type talent and every school in the Pac 10 is begging for him.

WR - Floyd was a 5* on everyones rating. Walker was highly covitted 4* who played in UArmour Allstar. Goodman was 4* who played up to all the talent at AAA game. Golden was coveted by UT and other SEC teams. Shaq has committed and he was wanted by USC who already has 10 WR's.

TE - Rudolph was 5* wanted by all. He has shown major talent. Ragone was 4* who got injured as a senior, otherwise would have been rated even higher.

OT - Sam Young was 5* top rated tackle. Matt Romine was 4* who had his choice of major programs. He was a stud at the AAAA game.

OG - T. Robinson was 5* guard who Nebraska and every other Big 12 school was dying to have. Stewart was behomouth 4* wanted by most southern powers.

OC - Wenger was 4*. Cave was 4* and show dominance over the best NT in the country, Omar Hunter.

CB - Walls should have been 5* but shoulder injury senior year held him to 4*. McNeil was 4* who held Percy Harvin in check at the AAA game. Gray was 4* who was wanted by several big SEC programs.

Safety - The only position we don't have a current 4 star playing. Bruton and McCarthy were 3*. The younger McCarthy who is being redshirted is a 4* stud athlete wanted by OSU, PSU and most of the Big Ten. Seke Motto is Florida stud 4* who UF wanted many others want.

LB - Brian Smith was 4* before ND even got in the mix. He was committed to Iowa and then ND. Steve Filer 4* that all the major Big 10 schools wanted. Harrison Smith was a 4* athlete that Tennessee was begging to have along with most of the SEC. Anthony McDonald was 4* LB that USC was hoping to land.

DE - Fleming was 4* stud that all the Big Ten wanted. Ethan Johson was beast 4* player that every team in the Pac 10 wanted. KLM was Texas 4* that was wanted by all the Big 12.

DT - Tyler Stockton is highly rated 4* DT that many Big East schools want. Ian Williams was 3* recruit in FL that many SEC schools wanted. Sean Cwynar was wanted by all Big Ten schools.

As you can see by the above, we are getting our fair share of the major talents out of high school. We are not going to get every kid we chase, but we are also winning many of the battles. Yes, we lost on Baldwin last year, but we won on many many more. Further, why take a kid who most likely will not make it academically at ND. Trust me, Urban, Pete and the like are not targeting ND players just to piss of ND and stockpile our recruits. With scholarship limitations, teams cannot afford to take players they don't need. The days of OSU, UM and ND stockpiling players just so other schools don't get them is long gone. Look at the list of schools who have offered our recruits. It is not MAC, WAC or lower level schools. It is the premier schools of the major conferences. Those schools did not offer these kids for shits and giggles. They got offers because they are talented.

The RECRUITING AND ADMISSIONS theory does NOT fly and holds not a drop of water. Drop that damn arguement FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Start doing your research before you throw that business my way again.

nicely done jonesman.

 

[NDMontana]

A friend of my emailed me his thoughts after the loss to USC when he was, curiously, not too upset:

"With each season I realize more and more that Notre Dame's administration is not interested in National Championships. I lower my expectations each year. I bought a new Notre Dame sweatshirt this year and I won't buy anything else for another two years. I used to buy new apparel every year. On Saturday afternoons I watch the games....unless I have something better to do. I never used to have something better to do.

Yesterday (as in Saturday) I was much more excited to watch the Oklahoma-Oklahoma State Game. I can't wait to watch the SEC Championship next Saturday. I've closely followed Texas all season and I find myself rooting, hard, for them. I might be turning into a Texas fan. No, that's not true. Well, maybe a little.

Can you blame me? I'm not that enthused about watching ND squeek out victories over a team that, the first week of the season, lost to an FCS team. Losing to Syracuse? Wow. I thought that game was an aberration but as the season wore on I realized that Notre Dame really isn't better than San Diego State.

I'm not a kid anymore. I always rooted for Notre Dame, cried when we lost and was on cloud nine when we won. Somewhere along the line, the tears dried up. My time became more valuable and I had to ask myself: If I'm going to clear three hours off my schedule every Saturday, wouldn't I rather watch a game that I enjoy?

Notre Dame has been three hours of misery for 15 years running. '05 and '06 were great but we still didn't beat anybody worth talking about. No magical Penn State or Miami or FSU wins like we used to see growing up. You know that I'm not a band wagon jumper. I don't switch teams, hell I've been a Cubs fan all my life and we know that we're never going to win the World Series. But at least the Cubs try to win. Notre Dame keeps making crappy hires because nobody wants to coach there anymore. Why would they?"

I have a feeling that there lot more like him than there are like those of us on this board that cling to hope. Those are all his words--not mine. But I've known that guy for all 28 years of our lives and I'm telling you that lived and died with ND. I guess he died enough for one lifetime.

Is this post relevant? Probably not. But I think it sums up what some people are feeling and what ND's administration has to look forward to given their current direction.

 

[realitycheck]

where's a link i could check out to see them?

Their Scout profiles, just like every other recruit

 

[realitycheck]

The RECRUITING AND ADMISSIONS argument is totally NOT valid. Let me give you some food for thought.

First, if the players we are recruiting are not that good or well regarded, then why the heck are Urban and the Poodle continuing to chase them after they commit. Don't tell me these guys can't judge skill players. Don't tell me that they just want to harrass our recruits for no reason.

Second, we have recruited 3 recruiting classes in the top 10 since CW arrived. You guys all say how Rivals and ESPN have it out for ND, so why would they make us top in recruiting.

Finally and most important, lets look at the players and positions.

QB - Dayne Crist and Jimmy Clausen. Both 5 star players that every major University was chasing. USC was salivating to have both of them. Yes, JC has struggled of late, but not all his fault.

RB - Aldridge was 5* who happened to get a knee injury. Allen broke a leg his senior year in HS, but still was a 4* and is very talented. Hughes was a 4* stud.
Cierre Wood has Reggie Bush type talent and every school in the Pac 10 is begging for him.

WR - Floyd was a 5* on everyones rating. Walker was highly covitted 4* who played in UArmour Allstar. Goodman was 4* who played up to all the talent at AAA game. Golden was coveted by UT and other SEC teams. Shaq has committed and he was wanted by USC who already has 10 WR's.

TE - Rudolph was 5* wanted by all. He has shown major talent. Ragone was 4* who got injured as a senior, otherwise would have been rated even higher.

OT - Sam Young was 5* top rated tackle. Matt Romine was 4* who had his choice of major programs. He was a stud at the AAAA game.

OG - T. Robinson was 5* guard who Nebraska and every other Big 12 school was dying to have. Stewart was behomouth 4* wanted by most southern powers.

OC - Wenger was 4*. Cave was 4* and show dominance over the best NT in the country, Omar Hunter.

CB - Walls should have been 5* but shoulder injury senior year held him to 4*. McNeil was 4* who held Percy Harvin in check at the AAA game. Gray was 4* who was wanted by several big SEC programs.

Safety - The only position we don't have a current 4 star playing. Bruton and McCarthy were 3*. The younger McCarthy who is being redshirted is a 4* stud athlete wanted by OSU, PSU and most of the Big Ten. Seke Motto is Florida stud 4* who UF wanted many others want.

LB - Brian Smith was 4* before ND even got in the mix. He was committed to Iowa and then ND. Steve Filer 4* that all the major Big 10 schools wanted. Harrison Smith was a 4* athlete that Tennessee was begging to have along with most of the SEC. Anthony McDonald was 4* LB that USC was hoping to land.

DE - Fleming was 4* stud that all the Big Ten wanted. Ethan Johson was beast 4* player that every team in the Pac 10 wanted. KLM was Texas 4* that was wanted by all the Big 12.

DT - Tyler Stockton is highly rated 4* DT that many Big East schools want. Ian Williams was 3* recruit in FL that many SEC schools wanted. Sean Cwynar was wanted by all Big Ten schools.

As you can see by the above, we are getting our fair share of the major talents out of high school. We are not going to get every kid we chase, but we are also winning many of the battles. Yes, we lost on Baldwin last year, but we won on many many more. Further, why take a kid who most likely will not make it academically at ND. Trust me, Urban, Pete and the like are not targeting ND players just to piss of ND and stockpile our recruits. With scholarship limitations, teams cannot afford to take players they don't need. The days of OSU, UM and ND stockpiling players just so other schools don't get them is long gone. Look at the list of schools who have offered our recruits. It is not MAC, WAC or lower level schools. It is the premier schools of the major conferences. Those schools did not offer these kids for shits and giggles. They got offers because they are talented.

The RECRUITING AND ADMISSIONS theory does NOT fly and holds not a drop of water. Drop that damn arguement FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Start doing your research before you throw that business my way again.

A lot of misinformation in this post

USC went after Clausen hard, nobody will dispute that, but beyond offering Dayne Crist, they did not pursue him nearly as hard as they did Clausen because they knew they had Barkley waiting in the wings in 09. So they sure as hell weren't "salivating" over him.

Cierre Wood does not have "Reggie Bush type talent" or else USC would've offered him as a RB, they don't see him as a RB and offered him as a defensive back. Nor are they "begging for him"

The biggest fallacy in your post was that USC was hoping to land Anthony McDonald. USC likes their LBs a lot faster than McDonald and never came close to offering him.

Maybe you're the one who should do more research

 

[dre1919]

If you honestly think that Notre Dame doesn't struggle in recruiting and landing some players because they can't get through the admissions process then you are really, really naive. I admit, Weis has done a really good job bringing in top tier talent. Unfortunately, his ability to coach that talent up doesn't even come close to his ability to get it. But don't, for a second, think that Notre Dame having much higher academic standards doesn't hurt them in recruiting. Again, you have to look at the situation from the eyes of a teenage kid looking to jump to the pros and become a millionaire with his signing bonus. If he already knows going in that education is number two in importance, that he isn't going to stay all four years (given good seasons), and that he may not even finish his degree (as some top tier draft picks do not) then why go to a very difficult academic school? Seriously. Why not go to the Texas', the USC's and the Florida's of the world? Make no mistake about it...there's a reason why Northwestern, Duke, Vanderbilt and Stanford do not routinely compete for the national championship year in and year out.