Defensive Formations

[kickerbg31]

I know it is certainly an unorthodox system and not a part of Minter's defense, but I would be interested to see what our team would be like in a 4-2-5. WIth the lack of returning linebacker experience, this formation would allow Zibby and/or Ndukwe to play closer to the line with Bruton as more of a true free safety. I think it plays into ZIbby and Ndukwe's strengths and gives them a little bit of a safety blanket over the top.

Basically, this would allow Zibby and Ndukwe to play the run (at which they excel), but we would lose some size and strength at linebacker. I think a normal 4-3 is better for the teams with a traditional offense (Michigan, Penn St.) while a 4-2-5 could really work well against teams that run a spread offense (Michigan St, Stanford, Purdue, etc)

Thoughts?

 

[Dannyboy Ayers]

it all starts up front. If the D-line can't get any pressure than it dosn't matter how many db's you have back there. the QB can just sit back all day and wait for somebody to get open. It all starts up front.

 

[luckofirish8]

I agree that it all starts up front...but the thought of a 4-2-5 defense isn't a bad idea. I also agree with kickerbg31, it would play to our safety strengths. Having said this...I don't know that we would ever run a 4-2-5.

 

[kickerbg31]

it all starts up front. If the D-line can't get any pressure than it dosn't matter how many db's you have back there. the QB can just sit back all day and wait for somebody to get open. It all starts up front.

I know that Minter has to do something, anything to get more pressure from the front four. That needs to happen in ALL formations, and we can't rely on linebacker or DB blitzes no matter what the formation is. What I think will really improve our pass defense (even if we can't find a pass rush) is to give ZIbby and Duke help over the top. Yes, Zibby improved quite a bit last year, but I can't even count how many times he bit on play action and got beat over the top.

The key is that we can't sacrifice run defense to have a great pass defense. With the lack of experience (and size) at linebacker, I don't think we'd lose that much by switching from a base 4-3 to a 4-2-5. The additional safety would essentially allow either Duke or Zibby to play as a safety/linebacker hybrid (Apache, anyone?)

That being said, I agree with LuckofIrish8's post. We wont see the 4-2-5, but its an intriguing possibility.

Maybe I'm just searching for a way to get Bruton on the field more...

 

[LuckoftheIrish86]

any team in the NCAA use the 3-4?

I can't think of anyone who does...

 

[luckofirish8]

Virginia does.

 

[jiggafini19]

Based on the depth chart, a 4-2-5 would make perfect sense.

However, if these guys are in proper position and execute there is no reason why they can't stay in a standard 4-3-4.

Much of what you do on defense depends on game situation and opponent. Notre Dame needs to do a better job of positioning their safeties and adjusting within the game.

 

[irishtexan]

A 4-2-5 is a great defensive formation. Against the run it acts like a 4-4 but in pass coverage it is basically a nickel. Different coverages and different looks can confuse the quarterback, just like BYU'S 3-3-5. Also you can work some great blitz packages up with the safetie's speed on the outside. You have to have tough safeties with some speed to play the outside, which I think we have. I think this formation would be very beneficial to our defense this year. By the way Navy runs a 3-4 too. I think Houston does too. And Colorado did some last year.

 

[scooper]

The Apache LB is kind of a hybrid LB/S. So it is already similar to a 4-2-5 in some ways. I would highly recommend this article from bluegreysky. http://bluegraysky.blogspot.com/2005_04_01_bluegraysky_archive.html#111392510683850147

 

[Indydomer]

Somebody has been playing a little too much NCAA on Xbox. That defense works good on that game, but you don't see any top notch teams running those crazy style of defense. Most of them are just different variations of a 4-3(like us).

 

[rattfink]

Somebody has been playing a little too much NCAA on Xbox. That defense works good on that game, but you don't see any top notch teams running those crazy style of defense. Most of them are just different variations of a 4-3(like us).

West Virginia ran the 3-3-5 in '05. But you are correct in saying that most of the major powers don't run it. I do think that is the spread offense continues to... um, spread, you will see more schools go to these unorthodox defenses.

 

[Irish Envy]

To me, it still looks like Notre Dame is recruiting to move to the 3-4 in the future.

 

[rattfink]

To me, it still looks like Notre Dame is recruiting to move to the 3-4 in the future.

You might be right. I feel that traditionally most high school coaches put their best defenders at LB, somewhat like baseball coaches but their best defender at SS. It would make sense that they would want to recruit more LBs and in theory have more "best" defenders on the field.

Of course a good 3-4 need 3 good D-linemen to eat up space. And we all know how hard they are to find.

 

[irishwavend]

The 3 Stack (3-3-5) is used by lesser teams that don't have the horses to run bigger defenses. If they have a bunch of little fast guys, they rely on the blitz to get those guys through and act like anything from a 4-3 to a 5-2. If you understand the 3 Stack, though, you can easily figure everything out on your pre-snap read. We are pretty tight with the Univ of Memphis and Joe Lee Dunn who invented the 3 Stack several years ago, so I can tell you, it is confusing at first, but then it becomes really really simple once you know what's up. I would be curious to see a team with great athletes run it...Actually, we could be pretty damn good running that:
Wooden, Zibby, Bruton, Ndukwe, Lambert/Whoever
CB Cat Free Cat CB

Crum, Thomas, Vernaglia/Whoever
OLB MLB OLB

Abiamiri, Laws, Landri
DE DT DE

DAMN! We should actually run that! We could have a fresh set of legs in the secondary all the time, and we could have a fresh DL more often...You don't get lit up by the pass as much, and the blitz is more confusing when teams try to figure out how to run the ball against you. When other teams go empty, too, (no RB in the backfield) you send 6 because they only have 5 guys blocking...Could you imagine our 3 DL & 3 LBs blitzing like that??? The QB never has enough time to get the pass off...Unless you are wooden on the outside and it goes for 80 yards near the goalline.

 

[guff]

To me, it still looks like Notre Dame is recruiting to move to the 3-4 in the future.

I agree but does Minter have any experience running a 3-4? Most of the head coaches off of the Belichick tree run a 3-4 (Crennel, Saban, Mangini, Groh) - Pat Hill and Ferentz do not and both were offensive asst. under Belichick. I think Weis will go the 3-4 but that transition in a few years away.

In the meantime if you'd like to get a good idea of what ND may do (or try to do) next year look at the Carolina Panthers. Weis referenced the extended meeting between ND's staff and Carolina's staff a couple times. He said that they would be "sharing information".

Unfortunately, Julius Peppers has used up all of his eligiblity.

 

[rattfink]

Unfortunately, Julius Peppers has used up all of his eligiblity.

I haven't watched a lot of Carolina football recently. Do they occasionally run a 3-4? Where does Peppers play? With his size and skills he could play OLB or DE and be effective.

 

[irishfan81]

I think it's good because the way we played the last couple years on D is bad and we gave up a lot of yards and "Big Plays". So Weis is going to the 4-2-5 just like the Baltimore Ravens who have a good defense.
________
Honda XR600

 

[scooper]

The Ravens run the 4-3.

 

[kickerbg31]

I agree but does Minter have any experience running a 3-4? Most of the head coaches off of the Belichick tree run a 3-4 (Crennel, Saban, Mangini, Groh) - Pat Hill and Ferentz do not and both were offensive asst. under Belichick. I think Weis will go the 3-4 but that transition in a few years away.

In the meantime if you'd like to get a good idea of what ND may do (or try to do) next year look at the Carolina Panthers. Weis referenced the extended meeting between ND's staff and Carolina's staff a couple times. He said that they would be "sharing information".

Unfortunately, Julius Peppers has used up all of his eligiblity.

The Panthers have arguably the best D-Line in football, so they don't need to blitz much to get pressure on the QB. I don't think we have the personel for this type of defense. Hopefully, Abiamiri can turn the corner and we can find someone to play consistent on the other side. Landri and Laws are decent at plugging up the middle against the run, but I would like to see them get more pressure on the QB this year.

 

[jiggafini19]

The Ravens run the 4-3.

Correct. I think what he meant was the old 3-4 that they ran during the height of their success.

I actually just got a copy of their last 3-4 playbook from a few years ago. I'm not much of a 3-4 fan, but having looked at it up close on paper with X and O's, I can see the benefits to it.

Most of the AFC is running it. Makes sense Weis might want to give it a shot.

 

[domer88]

I think that the D Line will be better this year. Simply one more year faster, one more year stronger and one more year working together with Weis/Minter. This by itself will make our secondary better. Additionally, I respect coach Lewis, and believe that the communication will improve in the secondary - fewer big plays. the big questions are at LB. Can Thomas step up? Can Vernaglia step up? If not then who? If we do not have 3 legit starters at LB, then maybe it makes some sense to experiment with a 4-2-5. I like that it would seem, from the outside looking in, to fit our current players. My concern is that next year we will almost certainly not use it again, and that means everyone would need to learn another system.

 

[domer88]

I have to add that I love the thinking and this thread in general