CW - Fundamentally

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SteveM

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You guys get wrapped around the axle regarding talent. The fact is the talent level that ND recruits should be able to match up with the teams they play even with minimal method coaching. Those guys come into the program exceptional players. Now I’m not saying they should dominate, but they should be competitive. And they are not. So that's not the fundamental issue right now.

Below is a repost from something I had submitted earlier:

From the very beginning, he [CW] came off to me as a coach with too much of an NFL "edge". He talks to and about his players like they are mature pros when in fact they are just kids. I wonder how his players respond to that?

Moreover taciturn coaches can win, but they need a balanced approach in dealing with their players. Lombardi had it. It was love-hate all the way. But he played his guys like a violin. And they would have done anything for Lombardi. Tom Coughlin meanwhile doesn't have it. He's a my way or the highway 24/7 coach who never takes the edge off. And it shows in the club-house bickering that has existed wherever he’s gone. I mean, who'd really want to play for that guy? That's why it's been hard for him to take it to the next level in the pros. So which one is Charlie more like, Lombardi or Coughlin? Beats me. But I'd sure like to be a fly on the wall in that locker room when the players talk among themselves about the situation there.


ND is performing so poorly, it can’t be the talent. And Charlie is undoubtedly a great offensive mind. So the key question has to be can Charlie get guys hungry to play for him? You see Lou give these corny pep talks on ESPN. But hell, after he does one, even I’d go bust down a door for him and the school. Can Charlie consistently do that? I.e. both teach and motivate? What else is there to talk about regarding this current problem?
 

johnnd05

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This definitely isn't Weis's strong point. But while I think that there are many among the current upperclassmen who may have "given up" to some extent (or at least aren't responding well to Weis), that doesn't seem to be so among the freshman and sophomores that Weis himself recruited. As I've said, two commitments in one week from guys who were on the sidelines for the SC game is a clear indication that something is going right. The problems with this year, though, go FAR beyond lack of motivation - look at what happened last Saturday, where guys apparently came out with fire in their eyes, but then everyone just got discouraged as hell when everything went wrong at once.
 
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SteveM

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John,

The point is that being able to do that (get and keep guys motivated and hungry) is a critical head coach requirement for program success. And if it's not Charlie's "strong point", then you have to connect the dots regarding future success regardless of the talent level.

P.S. Hope I'm wrong.
 

johnnd05

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John,

The point is that being able to do that (get and keep guys motivated and hungry) is a critical head coach requirement for program success. And if it's not Charlie's "strong point", then you have to connect the dots regarding future success regardless of the talent level.

P.S. Hope I'm wrong.

Well, he did a pretty good job the past two years with a highly professional bunch of veteran players. That's one of the biggest differences between the last two years and this one. Not to say that they never came out flat (e.g. Michigan last year), but they won plenty of games.

Moreover, Weis has made it clear that he's willing to learn from his mistakes, and change how he does things. Heck, maybe he'll let Corwin Brown do the pre-game pep talks. I definitely see where you're coming from, but I think this problem will resolve itself. Right now Weis is in a position where it's all but IMPOSSIBLE to motivate these guys, and frankly he's done a pretty good job IMO, at least in some cases - as I said, the problem against SC wasn't guys not being fired up at the start, but discouragement setting in once things went bad.
 
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SteveM

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John,

I see your point and it has validity. So the ambiguity. We know this issue is going to get pounded through January.

Here's what concerns me. I played for a "Lombardi Type". And he would never have allowed the decomposition in the locker room to happen. He just wouldn't. He would have cauterized it and kept us focused. But that's not what happened here. What did happen, shouldn't have.
 

goldandblue

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Inexperience in dealing with young players could be the cause of that SteveM. Weis never had to be a mentor or "motivator" at new england. Let's just all hope that he has learned a lesson this year!
 

SoCalDomer

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John,

The point is that being able to do that (get and keep guys motivated and hungry) is a critical head coach requirement for program success. And if it's not Charlie's "strong point", then you have to connect the dots regarding future success regardless of the talent level.

P.S. Hope I'm wrong.

Part of the trouble of motiviation this year has to stem from the "here we go again attitude" that can creap in. Given what happened in the games prior to USC, I imagine it is easier for this group of guys to get down than most other teams. I think part of that comes from lack of upperclassmen leadership who have experienced games where things go wrong, and who instead of throwing in the towel tell the younger guys, "hey, don't get down, there's still a lot of football to play."
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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You guys get wrapped around the axle regarding talent. The fact is the talent level that ND recruits should be able to match up with the teams they play even with minimal method coaching. Those guys come into the program exceptional players. Now I’m not saying they should dominate, but they should be competitive. And they are not. So that's not the fundamental issue right now.

Actually, if you look at the 5th Year, Senior, and Junior classes you see MAC level talent...and we are getting treated like a MAC level team.

Two years from now we will have Top level talent...but this is now, not the future.
 

Wham

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Part of the trouble of motiviation this year has to stem from the "here we go again attitude" that can creap in. Given what happened in the games prior to USC, I imagine it is easier for this group of guys to get down than most other teams. I think part of that comes from lack of upperclassmen leadership who have experienced games where things go wrong, and who instead of throwing in the towel tell the younger guys, "hey, don't get down, there's still a lot of football to play."

Bingo in bold.

Special teams mistakes, and poorly drawn/poorly practiced/poorly sequenced offense will do it. I'm wondering if the line didn't have a bit of spite toward JC for the flambouyant media-hyped way he came in. Remember the Mich. game where 4 or defenders sacked him on one play?

Of course, the argument against my opinion that the O scheme is to blame is that the offense had success before. I maintain that they were somewhat successful early on, but as soon as defenses caught on, it was lights out. CW did manage wins against the average teams, but we all saw what happened against the good ones.

I guess we will see what happens when all of his recruits are here.

Funny, I have always been an ND fan, but never so actively as now that they are losing so atrociously. I think my misery sought the company of the ND faithful...
 
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Moostache

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Bingo in bold.
Funny, I have always been an ND fan, but never so actively as now that they are losing so atrociously. I think my misery sought the company of the ND faithful...

100% agreence!

I would say that my ND obsessive following has actually increased this year...

I think one of the things that keeps me coming back for more like a starving man at a soup line is the strange dichotomy of the on-field results versus the off-field recruiting. I was too young to really remember the Faust-era, other than my neighbor (an ND alum) hanging an "oust Faust" banner from his windows on gamedays; but interestingly there seems to be near universal agreement he could recruit talent to ND. Whether it was the right talent or right for what he wanted to do or he could not develop that talent is debatable, but Gerry Faust did manage to lure some awfully good football players to South Bend.

I said earlier this year that Weis is on the fence between being a Lou Holtz-type ND coach or becoming a Gerry Faust-type ND coach. Both men clearly loved the university and what it represents and both could obviously recruit talent, but the results on Saturdays between Lou and Gerry could not be more starkly different.

At least we can all 100% agree that neither Davie nor Willingham would ever be confused for Faust in their love of Notre Dame!

Now the $64,000 question remains - is Weis doomed to be just like Gerry or is he capable of becoming more like Lou? He does not seem to have the motivational skills of Holtz, but that can be somewhat offset by a larger role for Corwin Brown in time.

He has already produced two seasons better than anything Gerry could muster:

Faust
1981 5-6
1982 6-4-1
1983 7-5
1984 7-5
1985 5-6

Weis
2005 9-3
2006 10-3
2007 1-7 (possibly finishing anywhere from 1-11 to 5-7 at this point)

I think this is one of the reasons I am so actively following the team right now even though there is no doubt this is a total bust of a season, and possibly heading for status as THE worst ever at ND....
 

bbrennan

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I am not so sure the issue is with Weis being a rah-rah coach or not. I think one of the primary issues Weis needs to deal with before the team will live up to expectations is the coaching staff around Weis. I think Brown is doing a decent job with the talent, but at best he is learning on the job. The other assistants I do not see as "best-in-class" coaches. Ianello may be a great recruiter, but is he a good WR coach? Polian a similar situation - is he a great assistant coach? One of Lou's best attributes was he put excellent assistants around him. Look at Alvarez running the defense in the 80's and 90's and even Davie was a good D-coordinator. Lou started to falter when he moved to Minter as the D-coordinator.

Weis should understand the importance of good coordinators and position coaches - heck he was one. The Patriots team he was part of were great in large part because of he and Crennel. I have gotten the impression this year that Weis is trying to take on too much or that his position coaches are not "coaching up" the talent we have. This will become even more of an issue as the recruiting gets better. Regardless of how many stars a HS kid has, he needs to be coached well in college to take it to another level. USC might be experiencing the impact of losing good position coaches this year.

I don't think Weis's style needs to change as much as his attitude toward the coaches working for him. We need to upgrade the assistants and Weis needs to trust them and let them do their job.
 

Timugen

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Actually, if you look at the 5th Year, Senior, and Junior classes you see MAC level talent...and we are getting treated like a MAC level team.

Two years from now we will have Top level talent...but this is now, not the future.

You're being way too generous. Don't insult the MAC teams.
 

Newc

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I think we should just start winning.

I bet things would get alot better then.
 
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Moostache

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Look at it this way....if we win the next 4 games (it IS still possible dammit!!!), the the final record is going to be 5-7. That is far from expectations, far from "good enough" and light years away from where we all want the program to be, but it won't necessarily be the worst season ever....even though it will contain part of the worst STRETCH of games ever.

WHY NOTRE DAME CAN AND WILL WIN ITS LAST FOUR GAMES
The last 10 games from 11/25/2006 - through - 10/20/2007 at 1-9 with multiple blow-outs = 38-0, 38-0, 41-14, 33-3, 31-10 etc. is worse than 11/30/2002 - through - 11/01/2003. Even then, we only lost 8 out of 10 games; but the margins of defeat were pretty similar - 37-0, 38-0, 44-13, 45-14, 28-6, etc...

That suffering was temporarily halted by a season ending gauntlet of:

11/8 vs. Navy (8-5) W 27 24
11/15 vs. Brigham Young (4-8) W 33 14
11/29 @ Stanford (4-7) W 57 7
12/6 @ Syracuse (6-6) L 12 38

Those were the scores put up by a previously 2-6 ND team that was at the time seen as the worst in school history...maybe not quite as inept as this year's offense, but still pretty damn right offensive in a bad way themselves...under the immortal leadership of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named

This year we sub-in Air Force for BYU and Duke for Syracuse...I think that this team is more than capable of rallying to a 4-0 finish (instead of 3-1) to pull into a "Ty" so to speak for the worst season EVER!

Beyond this year though, the future looks SWEET! (Or maybe just BETTER!)

WHY NOTRE DAME WILL WIN MNCS (PURAL) IN THE NEXT 6 YEARS
There is only one other time in the last 30 years that ND has had the kind of talent on campus that will be here at the start of next fall's training camp. That would be the Lou Holtz / Vinnie Cerrato years from 1988 - 1993.

1987 - 8-4 (after a 8-1 start, lost Cotton Bowl but fed into the coming years nicely):
1988 - 12-0 (MNC)
1989 - 12-1 (#2)
1990 - 9-3 (NOT GOOD ENOUGH? I bet we'd all take it now!)
1991 - 10-3 (Sugar Bowl win to show who belongs in a Bowl)
1992 - 10-1-1
1993 - 11-1 (SHOULD BE MNC based on 1989 logic, but instead #2)

Overall -> 72-13-1, 1 MNC, 2 #2 finishes, 5 NYD Bowl Wins

What makes me think Weis can replicate all or even part of that success?
Simple really - 2005.

That team went 9-3, and; although Charlie unwisely labelled that "not good enough" instead of a more concillitory "a good start", they got everything they could from the talent they had - and it was in fact almost "good enough". They lost 2 regular season games by 6 total points and in both losses had damn near pulled out wins from a hat (a trick that cast of characters actually DID use at MSU and against UCLA the following year). They came within a controversial ending and an actually illegal though not enforced play of beating the (at-the-time-anyway) "Greatest Team Ever" as ajudicated by the WWL.

The bowl game loss to tOSU in the Fiesta Bowl is now seen as some kind of massive blow-out loss like this season's 38-0 abominations....not true! That game was 27-20 in the 4th quarter with OSU facing a pair of 3rd and longs that they managed to get. Once those 2 plays happened, the ND defense became desperate and got badly out of position to allow the clinching long TD run. 34-20 may have reflected the disaparity in yardage, but the actual game in the 4th quarter was closer than people wish to recall. Granted, in the end it was a 14-point loss and not a win in any sense of the word, BUT realistically speaking the 2005 team was only A FEW PLAYS (NOT GAMES OR YEARS!) away from undefeated and MNC!

  • Did Charlie do that in a vacuum?
  • Were those players infinitely better than the ones coming in and getting ready to be contributors in 2008, 2009 and 2010?
  • Were those players not just coming off of a 2-year combined record of 11-13 with a bunch of drubbings very similar, almost eerily similar to this year's team (see above details)?

Yes, this year's o-line sucks, hard.
Yes, there have been some really bad mistakes in trying to do things this year that set the team back too far to recover in-season.
Yes, there is a lot of improvement lacking at this point and things should be better than they are.

BUT - if Weis could do it once....take a team of under-achieving but some talented players and raise them up from a pitiful offense and an overall record of 11-13 AND bring them to within a handful of plays from possibly being undefeated and MNCs once (for persepctive, this year's team was probably out of national championship contention completely after only a few plays!), why in the hell would everyone or their brother now ASSUME he is totally incapable of such a turn around AGAIN? I have to use my hackneyed phrase here (sad but true) - I am from Missouri now and you have to show me...well, if I am Charlie Weis I am saying "hey DUMBASS, were you NOT paying attention the FIRST time I pulled THAT rabbit out of the hat???? Now, watch me try it again with a better overall cast of talent from top-to-bottom and better depth!!!"

And to further that point, what evidence has been seen that he would EVER allow recruiting (especially along the interior line positions) get to such dangerously low levels in a 3-year period (to the point that ND cannot actually field a complete line WITHOUT underclassmen) again?

All Weis has done is:

- win 19 games in 2 years
- put up the best back-to-back years at ND since 1995 and 1996
- turn a 11-13 team with one minor bowl game appearance into a 19-6 outfit with back-to-back BCS game appearances
- recruit like a madman (#8, #8, #1 so far class ranks) and perfect the art in three years to the point that many people at ND and around the country now believe I might be able to sell ice to eskimos in January (hell, I am writing this massive tome in mainly because I am so bouyed by his recruiting coups in the face of another massive 38-0 beat down! When these beatings happened uner the previous staff, recruits like Reggie Bush ran for the hills of USC! Now, under the current staff, recruits like Mike Floyd - who just so happens to be a "gamebreaker" player who is sporting more "stars" than Mr. Bush did coming out of HS are running to Our Lady's university!!!)

What Weis is now suffering through and paying the combined price for is:

- his own inexperience as a head coach
- his own inexperience at havign to devise a system to develop players instead of utilize them
- his predecessor's lazy habits and disaterous recruiting in the trenches, where CLEARLY games are won and lost with frightening regularity
- the combined weight of mis-steps from 9 years of sub-par results (Later-day Holtz through Ty - 1996 through 2004 that resulted in the program EVER being allowed to have exactly 3 upperclass scholarship offensive linemen!
- an idiot of an AD and a schedule that has seen ND face 8 teams (in a row without a bye week to rest, recuperate or train) which sported a combined record as of their kick-offs against ND of 23-4 ==> (GT = 0-0, PSU = 1-0, UM = 0-2, MSU = 3-0, PU = 4-0, UCLA = 4-1, BC = 6-0, USC = 6-1) - granted that number is somewhat less impressive when taken as an overall record for those teams AFTER they played ND, but at the TIME THEY LINED UP TO PLAY, ND"s first 8 opponents sported a winning percentage of 85%!!!

See? Numbers can be used to "prove" anything!!!!:bbanana:
 

Wham

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That's it. i'm sending money to this website. Where do I slide my debit card?
 

piyachi

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While I am a huge supporter of Weis (heh, get the pun?) - the motivation issue does seem to be his true weak point. I think part of the reason we can't get fired up for a lot of games is his professional attitude.... that being said I think it can work in a lot of cases.

Look, this year it REALLY isn't going to work. We have a lot of young kids who want to have fun playing football (although it should always be at least partially fun). Older, more mature kids are more likely to take to the professional attitude -especially if they are prepping for the pros. So we have a coach who is more of a businessman than a motivator with a team that sort of runs the opposite way.

I think people will stop talking about it as we grow into a mature team, as it won't matter if we are fired up as much when we roll over the purdon'ts of the CFB world. Weis has said in his presser that you can only go to the emotion-well so many times (said this after the 2nd half surge at purdon't) and I think it's true. Ideally in the upcoming years the hard-work attitude and skill of the team will make us a level above most other teams. Then he can work on making the team get psyched up to play USuCk and their ilk. I mean I love Louuuuuu, but magic tricks aren't going to get me fired up to play someone like Air Force.

This too shall pass....
 

WaveDomer

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I guess it's human nature, but when a player transfers we wonder what is wrong with the program or the coaches. But when players return for a 5th year we usually don't look at it through the same lens: what is right with the program and with the coaches. This is in regards to the Laws thread. Emotion can only take you so far. The best ingredient for emotion is actually winning. Success breeds itself.

Also, I loved Holtz, but the big elephant in the room with Holtz is that he "relaxed" certain standards at ND.
 
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Moostache

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Also, I loved Holtz, but the big elephant in the room with Holtz is that he "relaxed" certain standards at ND.

All I can say in regards to relaxed entry standards is that the graduation standards were largely upheld. Players still came to school, still attended classes that were not Basket Weaving 101 or PE 332 and earned degrees at rates not far below the historical average for ND as I recall...could be wrong there.... But take a man like Tony Rice for example - who honestly had no business at all even applying for entry to a school like ND without his football ability. He turned out to be one of the finest representatives of the university in the last quarter-century...I think anyone would agree that ND would not be harmed as an institution of higher learning by having more men like Tony pass through its halls....
 

johnnd05

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All I can say in regards to relaxed entry standards is that the graduation standards were largely upheld. Players still came to school, still attended classes that were not Basket Weaving 101 or PE 332 and earned degrees at rates not far below the historical average for ND as I recall...could be wrong there.... But take a man like Tony Rice for example - who honestly had no business at all even applying for entry to a school like ND without his football ability. He turned out to be one of the finest representatives of the university in the last quarter-century...I think anyone would agree that ND would not be harmed as an institution of higher learning by having more men like Tony pass through its halls....

Nice post. I think this is the key point. It's not about GPA's and SAT's, but about whether the kids who come to ND are going to go to class, take a full load, and work hard. THAT'S the only academic standard that matters to me, and in general - see the graduation rate, for instance - they've done a great job of upholding it.
 

Master Guns

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Saw CW with Lou and Ara on a show called ND Coaches. Lou and Ara oozed Notre Dame motivation! CW, well just sat there like he was bothered to be there.
 

Sir John

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Holtz said his big mistake at ND was he "maintained" Nothing about grades. He coastedf his last few years on a reputation.
 

Timugen

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Saw CW with Lou and Ara on a show called ND Coaches. Lou and Ara oozed Notre Dame motivation! CW, well just sat there like he was bothered to be there.

I know he has media/PR obligations and everything, but if I were him and my team were performing like his is, I wouldn't be too thrilled about wasting time on some creampuff media engagement either.
 

johnnd05

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I know he has media/PR obligations and everything, but if I were him and my team were performing like his is, I wouldn't be too thrilled about wasting time on some creampuff media engagement either.

Yeah, I'll say ... I'd probably be off kicking dogs or something.
 
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ShivaIrish

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http://media.www.ndsmcobserver.com/...gression.Can.Be.A.Team.Strength-3015023.shtml

You can draw your own conclusions about the article. Is Notre Dame more than just academics and pure execution on the playing field? If so, perhaps some of those "gimmicks" tap into that something, dare we call it, something special?

I know that there is the possible downside of being an emotional team--one week is up, and then maybe that creates a greater chance for a letdown the following Saturday. But this is college, not the Pros, where I think spirit and tradition may, generally speaking, mean more. Don't underestimate the power of spirit, passion, and inspiration. Does Weis? And even if he doesn't does he really have the charisma to motivate the team to play spirited? If Weis sees USC as a model, or a gold-standard, does it register with him how Carroll runs the team. And I do not mean to insinuate that Weis should run N.D. football like USC. But is Carroll able to tap into what is unique about USC, which attracts recruits, and brings success on the field? Is there something about ND that Charlie is not tapping into, something (or somethings) that make the ND football program unique compared to others.

I'm not convinced that green jerseys are just a gimmick. Perhaps how they are utilized is important, though, in making them effective.
 
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