Academic Standards

louholtzfaninpa

New member
Messages
44
Reaction score
0
I believe ND should allow 4 to 5 players a year who usually couldnt get in. If they work hard enough then let them in. Two examples would be Tony Rice and Chris Zorich. Zorich grew up in a broken home from the inner city of Chicago. Zorich didnt do great on the Sat. But he worked hard and only having a 5 minute lunch plus missing some practice time. He later graduated from Notre Dame and Notre Dame law school. Rice had a 700 sat score and was considered a Prop 48. He took school more serious and later graduated from Notre Dame. I believe the admissions should let 4 or 5 guys in who dont have the best grades but want to work hard to get better grades.
 

tommyIRISH23

Well-known member
Messages
1,629
Reaction score
156
I believe ND should allow 4 to 5 players a year who usually couldnt get in. If they work hard enough then let them in. Two examples would be Tony Rice and Chris Zorich. Zorich grew up in a broken home from the inner city of Chicago. Zorich didnt do great on the Sat. But he worked hard and only having a 5 minute lunch plus missing some practice time. He later graduated from Notre Dame and Notre Dame law school. Rice had a 700 sat score and was considered a Prop 48. He took school more serious and later graduated from Notre Dame. I believe the admissions should let 4 or 5 guys in who dont have the best grades but want to work hard to get better grades.


I whole-heartedly agree. Giving someone a chance does not demean the standards of Notre Dame, it embraces them. There should be a long evaluation that examines the individual academically, and ethically, not just on football potential. I do not want too see Randy Moss or Noel Devine 2.0 in blue and gold. But a Zorich, or Tony Rice, would not bother me.
 

TerryTate

The Pain Train
Messages
5,437
Reaction score
443
I believe ND should allow 4 to 5 players a year who usually couldnt get in. If they work hard enough then let them in. Two examples would be Tony Rice and Chris Zorich. Zorich grew up in a broken home from the inner city of Chicago. Zorich didnt do great on the Sat. But he worked hard and only having a 5 minute lunch plus missing some practice time. He later graduated from Notre Dame and Notre Dame law school. Rice had a 700 sat score and was considered a Prop 48. He took school more serious and later graduated from Notre Dame. I believe the admissions should let 4 or 5 guys in who dont have the best grades but want to work hard to get better grades.

They evaluate based on improvement already. The standards to get into ND are significantly lower than the average student. It's not academics that made Lynch decommit. See DaVaris Daniels. He worked hard, improved, welcome to ND
 

tommyIRISH23

Well-known member
Messages
1,629
Reaction score
156
They evaluate based on improvement already. The standards to get into ND are significantly lower than the average student. It's not academics that made Lynch decommit. See DaVaris Daniels.

I asked in another thread. What are the requirements for football players? You seem to have an idea, and could put the "academics are too rigid" excuse to rest. I've got no idea at all.
 

tommyIRISH23

Well-known member
Messages
1,629
Reaction score
156
They evaluate based on improvement already. The standards to get into ND are significantly lower than the average student. It's not academics that made Lynch decommit. See DaVaris Daniels. He worked hard, improved, welcome to ND

What about Prop 48 guys, and Junior College guys? ND does not take them, correct?
 

TerryTate

The Pain Train
Messages
5,437
Reaction score
443
I know there is a sliding scale based on SAT/ACT score and GPA. If you have a relatively high SAT/ACT score, it could make up for your low GPA, and vice versa.

Found this online:

In 1993, the last year the Irish made a serious attempt at the National Championship, changes were all ready in motion. Notre Dame wanted a new image. In 1993 regular students averaged 1220 on their SAT's, and the football team averaged 899.

On the way to becoming one of the finest academic institutions in the country, there was a buzz going around that it was too hard to recruit good athletes, and it was the reason the football program was entering into a state of mediocrity.

In 2004 Paul Hornung told a Detroit sports talk host he wanted to see Notre Dame lower standards to attract better athletes. Horning, one of the most famous players to ever don a golden helmet, got a lot of people to realize that the Irish might be under a disadvantage in recruiting.

But Notre Dame didn't want any part of Hornungs message. Today, the average student scores just under 1400 on the SAT, and the average football player scores 1025.

To give you an example why it might be more difficult for Notre Dame to recruit, just look at the University of Florida. The Gators, who won the National championship in 2008, were reported by the Atlanta Journal Constitution to have average SAT scores of 890, in a study released the same year.

Florida's a great school, but they decided they wanted to have a larger sample of football prospects.

Notre Dame has decided to keep their high standards and I applaud them. They may not win as many football games as they did in the Holtz era, but they are setting an example.

Notre Dame, Georgia Tech, and especially Stanford are keeping their standards high. Their putting these standards ahead of winning. I applaud them again!

The Answer to Notre Dame's Academic Stds Debate: The NFL Studies Degree | Bleacher Report
 

TerryTate

The Pain Train
Messages
5,437
Reaction score
443
What about Prop 48 guys, and Junior College guys? ND does not take them, correct?

JUCO's usually (I don't know of any) can't get in because the credits will not transfer to Notre Dame.

I'm not sure about Prop 48 guys. Someone else will have that answer, I'm sure.
 

tommyIRISH23

Well-known member
Messages
1,629
Reaction score
156
2 words. Stan ford.

I'd want to wait a few years, and see if Stanford maintains. They also got out gunned by Oregon.

If the average SAT score now is 1025, get the average down too 990-1000. I am sure there is a median that ND can get blue chippers, and not be a Florida.

Does anyone think that, if ND continues losing, the alumni/administration will "screw" the billion dollar investment and go to Ivy League, or MAC? I don't. Way too much money at stake.

It's nice that ND tries to do it the "right" way, but if the trend continues, and they win 5-6 games a season, that will change. IMO
 

TerryTate

The Pain Train
Messages
5,437
Reaction score
443
I'd want to wait a few years, and see if Stanford maintains. They also got out gunned by Oregon.

If the average SAT score now is 1025, get the average down too 990-1000. I am sure there is a median that ND can get blue chippers, and not be a Florida.

Does anyone think that, if ND continues losing, the alumni/administration will "screw" the billion dollar investment and go to Ivy League, or MAC? I don't. Way too much money at stake.

It's nice that ND tries to do it the "right" way, but if the trend continues, and they win 5-6 games a season, that will change. IMO

You can find them. Look at Lyons, Burton, Councell, Hegarty. There are probably more, but I'm having some scotch right now and I don't have much of an attention span.

All have GPA's over 3.5
 

IrishinSyria

In truth lies victory
Messages
6,042
Reaction score
1,920
I believe ND should allow 4 to 5 players a year who usually couldnt get in.

They currently take about 20 or so students who usually couldn't get in, so I don't see how this would help...

Seriously, the admissions criteria are this: we must be reasonably certain that, with a lot of help, you have a good chance of completing a degree from ND.

In fact, I'd argue that ND already reaches too far. I played hockey (D3) at a school that's considered to be one of the most academically demanding in the country (Williams College). The old joke was that you'd better enjoy freshman year, because you're only going to get worse the more time you spend at Williams. ND players have different circumstances, but believe me: if you're struggling in the classroom, that will have a negative impact on your athletic development and performance. Notre Dame would be doing a disservice to the player if it accepted somebody that could not handle the coursework.
 

aubeirish

Well-known member
Messages
3,601
Reaction score
149
They currently take about 20 or so students who usually couldn't get in, so I don't see how this would help...

Seriously, the admissions criteria are this: we must be reasonably certain that, with a lot of help, you have a good chance of completing a degree from ND.

In fact, I'd argue that ND already reaches too far. I played hockey (D3) at a school that's considered to be one of the most academically demanding in the country (Williams College). The old joke was that you'd better enjoy freshman year, because you're only going to get worse the more time you spend at Williams. ND players have different circumstances, but believe me: if you're struggling in the classroom, that will have a negative impact on your athletic development and performance. Notre Dame would be doing a disservice to the player if it accepted somebody that could not handle the coursework.

Agreed. 1025 in your SAT is not very good. English isn't my first language and I got better than that. They lower the standards by lot for these kids.
I know this doesn't help win football games, but the real problem is these kids are just not very smart or do not work hard at all.
 

Riddickulous

"That" Guy
Messages
16,866
Reaction score
8,325
We can still recruit. In Charlie's first three classes, we had the 8th, 8th and 2nd best in the country.

I'd rather not have kids with fifth grade reading levels on the Notre Dame team.

Lowering academic standards would basically be admitting that football is more important than education at Notre Dame.
 

Stoic

Banned
Messages
253
Reaction score
9
Over here too!!

Take a look at the average SAT/ACT/GPA of the incoming freshman class at ND. I'll do the legwork for you - middle 50%: SAT 1390-1490; ACT 32-34; class rank 1%-5%. Now take a look down the football roster. You will see a drastic difference. There is almost no one on the football team at ND who would have even a remote chance at admission if they were not elite athletes.

The admissions department weighs the entire academic resume of prospective athletes and makes a judgment on whether or not they have a realistic chance of academic success in a demanding environment like ND (where they have to take calculus and real science classes and read real books instead of "See Spot Run"). Bringing in students who don't have a legitimate chance of ever graduating doesn't do anyone any favors.

What I'm trying to say is that your entire post is hollow because ND already does exactly what you want them to do. Athletes are already held to a much different academic standard from an admissions standpoint, but ND is not going to go to SEC route and admit students who can barely read, nor should they.
 

jason_h537

The King is Back
Messages
6,945
Reaction score
581
Every year this is brought up and everyu year we have great classes. Maybe the problem isnt admissions but the coaching staff.

College football is about coaches. a good coach turns u into a powerhouse, a bad hire sets u back 5 years, we have had 3 bad hires since Holtz. thats 15+ years
 

irishtrain

Well-known member
Messages
2,359
Reaction score
157
I believe ND should allow 4 to 5 players a year who usually couldnt get in. If they work hard enough then let them in. Two examples would be Tony Rice and Chris Zorich. Zorich grew up in a broken home from the inner city of Chicago. Zorich didnt do great on the Sat. But he worked hard and only having a 5 minute lunch plus missing some practice time. He later graduated from Notre Dame and Notre Dame law school. Rice had a 700 sat score and was considered a Prop 48. He took school more serious and later graduated from Notre Dame. I believe the admissions should let 4 or 5 guys in who dont have the best grades but want to work hard to get better grades.
Exactly to the point. Those are the guys that defend your goal line and stand toe to toe with the opposition. In other words you have 25 Teo's on your squad. How do you think that would change things.
 

Irishpinoy

New member
Messages
317
Reaction score
12
One of the ND athletes told my daughter that it's difficult to keep up when missing so many classes because of sports during the season. Some athletes tend to struggle academically during the season and have to work much harder than other students to keep up. IMO, that's one of the reasons why those who are looking at a pro career doesn't want to come to ND.
 

chyrspchuck

Internet Bad Ass
Messages
1,278
Reaction score
65
Every year this is brought up and everyu year we have great classes. Maybe the problem isnt admissions but the coaching staff.

College football is about coaches. a good coach turns u into a powerhouse, a bad hire sets u back 5 years, we have had 3 bad hires since Holtz. thats 15+ years

bingo, i just hope this isn't going to be 20. i believe bk is turning it around.
 

donnie hoss

New member
Messages
23
Reaction score
3
I wonder how many 4.3 game changers score 1100 sat/ 32 act. We have averaged somewhere in the top 15 classes or better over the last few years, just very few fast, sec type players. Anyone remember the scores of Rocket, Bettis, Waters? I think the addition of 1 or 2 dynamic gamers makes us a top 10 team. I know this sounds naive, but look at usc and Texas. One great player can add 2-3 wins per season. What about the kick returner for Tulsa?
 
Messages
787
Reaction score
25
Every year this is brought up and everyu year we have great classes. Maybe the problem isnt admissions but the coaching staff.

College football is about coaches. a good coach turns u into a powerhouse, a bad hire sets u back 5 years, we have had 3 bad hires since Holtz. thats 15+ years[/QUOTE) You are right to a point I think it's real simple college football is about coaching to a point but it's more about talent . I get Notre Dame is academically one best in country I would cry like a little girl if any of my kids go there. As for me I'm not working overtime everyweek to pay to go to Ireland to watch a spelling bee . I respect everyone on here that attended and anyone not here that goes there . That being said if the football product doesn't improve you are gonna best school in Indiana with a rich sports history. I watched this team since I was 10 Because I'm Irish catholic and I thought fighting Irish was a kick *** name. I love the fact that we are a elite school academically every grad there or soon to be grad I will admit you are and have done truly impressive thing. If it a scholastic football team is where we are going than so be it but I know Notre dame likes the money that having comes with football . Notre Dame football is living in the past right now we all know it stinks this year could set us back even more. Something has to be done if a few tweaks here and there have to be done to win games do it.
 

tommyIRISH23

Well-known member
Messages
1,629
Reaction score
156
We can still recruit. In Charlie's first three classes, we had the 8th, 8th and 2nd best in the country.

I'd rather not have kids with fifth grade reading levels on the Notre Dame team.

Lowering academic standards would basically be admitting that football is more important than education at Notre Dame.


To a point we can recruit. The rankings are swayed; if you have 2 or 3 5 stars. 2 4 stars, and 15 3 stars, you'll end up having a fairly well ranked class, but still have a lot of holes.

Defense is where we have been lagging, and I am not sure if it was lack of focus by the previous staff, or if the theory is true that defensive recruits are not as smart as offensive. Those big 300 lb linemen who run 4.6 40's are not coming to ND, and when it comes down to it, that's what makes a team great, 2 badass lines.

See, the good part is, we aren't Clemson. Clemson could win 9 games for 4 years in a row, and noone would care. If ND wins 9 games and a bowl, the whole world will know and these 5 years of crap would be forgotten about, and it would be a lot easier to steal from the limited number recruits from we can take from schools like Bama, UF...etc

If we can have a little luck, even this year, and beat Utah or SC, the season will not look as bad, and the whole CF world will be talking about how we are finally turning the corner blah blah blah. Lych and co. will recommit.
 

enrico514

New member
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
45
Every year this is brought up and everyu year we have great classes. Maybe the problem isnt admissions but the coaching staff.

College football is about coaches. a good coach turns u into a powerhouse, a bad hire sets u back 5 years, we have had 3 bad hires since Holtz. thats 15+ years

BINGO

Boby... Good/great DC who definately wasn't HC material
Ty... Golf pro who pretended to be a HC and was to lazy to recruit
CW... Great pro offensive coordinator who in the end wasn't college HC material.

Coach Kelly... Proven HC who has a 20 year track record of building programs.
 

DCirishfan

New member
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
40
Agreed. 1025 in your SAT is not very good. English isn't my first language and I got better than that. They lower the standards by lot for these kids.
I know this doesn't help win football games, but the real problem is these kids are just not very smart or do not work hard at all.


Do you run a 4.3 40?
 

IrishinSyria

In truth lies victory
Messages
6,042
Reaction score
1,920
One of the ND athletes told my daughter that it's difficult to keep up when missing so many classes because of sports during the season. Some athletes tend to struggle academically during the season and have to work much harder than other students to keep up.

This is ND's secret problem. Clearly, our problem isn't recruiting... BECAUSE WE JUST LOST TO TULSA AND NAVY. Those schools did not out-recruit us or put better athletes on the field than us, not by a mile. Our problem is what happens to the athletes when they get to ND. Class is hard. The weather is cold. NCAA regulations are taken seriously. They like to party. Not just on Saturday nights, but sometimes Thursdays too.

Believe it or not, sleep and stress can have a big impact on performance. On injury resistance. On discipline. You can't just step on the field and leave it all behind.

ND can overcome these disadvantages (Navy and Stanford seem to have done it recently) but recruiting dumber kids is not the answer. They will just end up feeling stressed and out of place at ND, and will fail to reach their full potential. We're much better off getting slightly lower ranked kids who are (relatively) smart and want to be at ND.
 

maineman

Member
Messages
34
Reaction score
2
They currently take about 20 or so students who usually couldn't get in, so I don't see how this would help...

Seriously, the admissions criteria are this: we must be reasonably certain that, with a lot of help, you have a good chance of completing a degree from ND.

In fact, I'd argue that ND already reaches too far. I played hockey (D3) at a school that's considered to be one of the most academically demanding in the country (Williams College). The old joke was that you'd better enjoy freshman year, because you're only going to get worse the more time you spend at Williams. ND players have different circumstances, but believe me: if you're struggling in the classroom, that will have a negative impact on your athletic development and performance. Notre Dame would be doing a disservice to the player if it accepted somebody that could not handle the coursework.
You should watch Williams football. They're undefeated! They'll lose to Amherst, though!
 

IrishinSyria

In truth lies victory
Messages
6,042
Reaction score
1,920
You should watch Williams football. They're undefeated! They'll lose to Amherst, though!

Williams football is an example of how a good coach can overcome all of that. They're good pretty much every year. Also, playing schools with the same set of standards helps. And finally, Amherst (most overrated school in the country) doesn't have a prayer.
 

maineman

Member
Messages
34
Reaction score
2
Williams football is an example of how a good coach can overcome all of that. They're good pretty much every year. Also, playing schools with the same set of standards helps. And finally, Amherst (most overrated school in the country) doesn't have a prayer.
Well then, you'll lose to MIddlebury in hockey
 

IrishinSyria

In truth lies victory
Messages
6,042
Reaction score
1,920
Well then, you'll lose to MIddlebury in hockey

Midd hockey is legit, but some of the other NESCACs are good this year. Williams lost their all-american captain (he's in the Penguin's farm system now) but they should still be pretty good.
 
Top