It's not you, it's me - Notre Dame Football Edition.

[DomerInHappyValley]

...maybe we should have Rocket or Timmy Brown recite this...MJ kinda doesn't work for ND football.

I think these guys get the pain part...I don't think they are in any way Lebron...but we'll see

The man used a Lebron commercial I figured it fit.

 

[dre1919]

Funny thing is, a guy on ESPN just wrote an article basically extolling the same things I have here, only without the positive factors being an actual Notre Dame fan bring into it. Essentially, his article was "Surrender our position in the college football world and call it a day." Well, I don't agree with that...nor do I agree with us having to lower our standards. The real point here is, Notre Dame simply cannot be everything. It's impossible. So, we should choose which we want to be...a football powerhouse and perennial national champion / NFL springboard or a winning football school with morals, academics and a clean record. I know many people think we can be both, and I admire your belief and opinion (as well as optimism). However, I feel those days are gone just as the days of football being "a few inches and a cloud of dust" are as well. I guess we'll see. If you want to read his article (and get mad), here it is:

Time to reset Notre Dame Irish expectations - ESPN

 

[Worf]

From my perch outside the window....

From my perch outside the window....

Being and outsider and older than some of you it's kinda strange when I realize how uncannily familiar this whole question is. But the last time I listened to the discussion it revolved around the ACC and SEC allowing Black players into their segregated programs. They were quite content to leave it as it was till USC (don't shoot) and other integrated teams began handing them their lunch in the 60's then they got religion most ricky tick. You guys are in a similar bind, but as you know it's not skin color but ability when tied to less than ND like GPA's that's causing the sleepless nights. I don't know what you're going to eventually do about this but you're gonna have to do something and quick. Much like in "Chariots of Fire" when Ben Cross told his superiors at Cambridge that the era of the "amateur" athlete was over. That to expect self trained amateurs to compete and defeat full time professionally trained athletes was folly. Perhaps that needs to be said here. Try to keep the illusion of the superior student athlete and lose or lower your standards and compete in the present system. The choice is up to you. I'll be interested in seeing which way it falls.

Worf

 

[DCirishfan]

How about we just start winning football games?

 

[phgreek]

The man used a Lebron commercial I figured it fit.

it does...in the theme of the thread...was just looking at the parts that don't fit the Team IMHO...

 

[irishff1014]

Being and outsider and older than some of you it's kinda strange when I realize how uncannily familiar this whole question is. But the last time I listened to the discussion it revolved around the ACC and SEC allowing Black players into their segregated programs. They were quite content to leave it as it was till USC (don't shoot) and other integrated teams began handing them their lunch in the 60's then they got religion most ricky tick. You guys are in a similar bind, but as you know it's not skin color but ability when tied to less than ND like GPA's that's causing the sleepless nights. I don't know what you're going to eventually do about this but you're gonna have to do something and quick. Much like in "Chariots of Fire" when Ben Cross told his superiors at Cambridge that the era of the "amateur" athlete was over. That to expect self trained amateurs to compete and defeat full time professionally trained athletes was folly. Perhaps that needs to be said here. Try to keep the illusion of the superior student athlete and lose or lower your standards and compete in the present system. The choice is up to you. I'll be interested in seeing which way it falls.

Worf

I really don't think so. You will aways have smart athletic kids.

 

[irishtrain]

Much like the Nike ad now trying to rehabilitate LeBron's image, I think we as Irish fans might want to look at the football program in the same light and consider the answer...

"What should I do? Should I admit I've made mistakes? Should I remind you I've done this before? Should I give you a history lesson? What should I do? Should I tell you how much fun we had? Should I really believe I ruined my legacy? Should I be who you want me to be? Should I accept my role as a villain? Maybe I should just disappear. Should I just clear the decks and start over? What should I do? Should I be who you want me to be?"

For a relatively small, religious based university in the middle of America's heartland we've accomplished a lot. National championships, Heisman trophies, All-Americans, history. But that was then...and then was a long time ago. Even the last time we raised the trophy as champions was twenty two seasons ago. Twenty two. In the old days, other schools only recruited relatively locally...no one was on TV the way the Irish were...there was no "internet". No YouTube, no Sportscenter, no highlight package on one of fifteen sports channels. Back then, we possessed and brandished recruiting tools other schools could only dream of having. Now, everyone has them. The playing field was not only leveled, the field changed colors (literally in the case of some) and became a different sport altogether (figuratively). As the NFL, and it's contract money, grew and grew the need for a "good education" went by the wayside. Schools steadily grew into football factories, ensuring recruits an unobstructed path to NFL riches in trade for money made for the school by winning college games (and bowls).

As these "rules" by which the game is played have changed, largely, Notre Dame has not. we have stuck to being an independent when others joined conferences for shared revenue. We have managed to maintain our own television network deal, bought mostly on our past and the fact that even casual fans seem to love something about the Irish. We have maintained a difficult schedule, only recently relenting a little, and most importantly...we have stressed classwork over a springboard to the NFL and instant money. But what has that gotten us? If you look at the recruits that have come through the doors, the coaches, the on field results...not much. Sure, we cobble together a decent season now and then but we are always one step away from mediocrity. We are always being questioned whether we are for real, overrated, or simply irrelevant in a modern college football "NFL farm system".

The truth we all ignore is today's blue chip recruits don't want to have to deal with extraordinarily hard classes when they can go to a school that allows "Ball Room Dancing" as a class option to keep playing. They can go to a school where a "C" average (or worse, a "D") keeps you technically eligible, and technically is enough. Blue chip, difference makers on the field choose to go play where the success is, and has been, the past decade...their formative years watching football. Sure, it was cool to play for the lore and mystique of Notre Dame in 1930, 1940, 1950, etc. 2010? Not so much. Why not play for Texas, OU, Ohio State or even Oregon? Why freeze during the winters when a warm beach awaits you at USC or Miami? Because some guy named Knute Rockne used to have some good teams at this little school once? Because this team with plain helmets is on TV every Saturday? So what? The Big Ten (and soon the Pac-10) will have their own networks, and ESPN and ABC always have the big boys playing in sparkling HD as well.

So all of this leads back to the Nike ad. Who do we want the Irish football program to be? Champions? Perennial contenders? A football factory? An academics first institution? Good citizens, off the police blotter, with morals and religion coming first? Increasingly, it seems highly unlikely and close to impossible to envision Notre Dame being all of these things. Yet, we as fans seem to want this every season. We expect the past to come alive and wake up the echoes, when in reality, those echoes are saying "Decide who you want to be, because in today's times, you cannot have it all." Tough pill to swallow, but it's the truth. And coaches know it too. It's why the coaching elite avoid Notre Dame like it's a haunted house. They know that the rules under which they must operate cannot yield the unrealistic expectations the fanbase and alumni demand. They know that without blue chip, difference making talent they cannot compete with the football factories and that is what would be asked of them. These are smart men, aware of their salary as well as their legacies and they want no part of a house haunted by the memories of past glory. Those echoes whisper to a time long ago when college football was a mere dwarf of the juggernaut it currently is. When the need for a prestigious degree and national merit was important, and there wasn't millions of dollars waiting on a simple signature to a piece of paper.

So who do we want Notre Dame to be? If the Irish decided to stick to their guns as an academic, even taking it more seriously, and joined the Ivy League I would still root for them as my favorite team. I feel a deep connection to the institution as a person of Irish heritage. But, that's me. I would accept they decided playing with the big boys was not really in the cards and that things like education and morality were more important than BCS millions. On the other hand, I LOVE football...and I really love championship, dominant football. It would be incredible to watch the Irish as a perennial contender and staple of the BCS bowls like Florida, OU, Texas and Ohio State are. That would be great! I would also understand that to have done that, it meant that we had to change our identity and make a choice. We had to choose where to win our battles...in the classroom, in the police station, or on the field. But once we were there, it meant we did choose...we didn't sit like we have for decades...in mediocrity and wondering if we were relevant anymore.

It is these reasons that it will not matter who coaches us...what mistakes they make or who they do or do not recruit. It is these reasons that keep us happy and basking in the thrill of victory one Saturday, then scratching out heads or yelling at the TV the next. We are ready to run the newest coach out of town at the first hint of trouble when the reality is, as we have the rules currently laid, no one is coming in here and doing what we really expect. Saban, Tressel, Meyer, Stoops...how could any of these considerable coaches do more than what Kelly is doing with what Kelly has to work with and under? We have financial means and past glory...that's about it. What good is that going to do us in the modern world of "right now", "do it the easy way", " a few crimes are misunderstandings and we can sweep them under the rug" or "classes shouldn't be hard for future millionaires".

Who should Notre Dame be?

One of the best pieces I've seen-I tell my opponent friends this stuff all the time. One other thought is why is everyone sooooo afraid of Notre Dame. That would be a great topic to throw around. Great work dre.

 

[irishtrain]

I agree with you for the most part, Te'o. What I'm really saying more than anything is just that we need to be patient in our determination of what is or isn't working, from players on down through coaching. The thing is, when people say "We have been patient and it's still not where it needs to be" that's true...but, consider this: The last three hires before Kelly were terrible choices. Davie and Weis were great coordinators (but not HC's), and Willingham was just in over his head with relation to the pressure, recruiting and magnitude of the job. Davie, Willingham and Weis set us back further than where we are now. What if Brian Kelly took over after Holtz's program? We'd be in the thick of BCS talk more than we are these days (and with greater seriousness than currently viewed with too). So, as it pertains to coaching, we need to stop the "one and done" feeling that we seem to always have as a fan base...the desire to see immediate results or that person is a "failure" of a coach. Kelly is the right man for the job, and possesses the tools that Davie, Willingham and Weis did not (experience winning as a HC, experience winning a championship, etc). Is he the best coach in college football? No. But, he's not only the best we could realistically get, he's pretty good. As with all things...it requires time to see the transformation. Mistakes will be made, frustration will happen, but eventually there will be a breakthrough.

With regards to the recruiting...yes, I believe Notre Dame can still recruit top flight talent as well. But, we have to acknowledge the landscape of college football has changed so much that it has greatly evened out a recruiting scene that Notre Dame used to command with an iron fist. This is a fact unfortunately, and it's one that not only Notre Dame feels...but other programs do too. Look at the #1 QB recruit...he dropped OU for Indiana. Why? The head coach is the former Sooners offensive coordinator that has two Heisman trophy winners (and high NFL draft choices) on his resume. Indiana! So, while I feel we can gain a small handful of blue chip recruits, we will never be getting a truckload like in decades past. I think our characteristics as a school hinder us from getting a LOT of blue chip, top flight guys year in and year out simply because at Notre Dame they are under intense media pressure and the fact they actually have to pass classes. That isn't meant to sound like top flight talent is dumb in the classroom, it just means that coming to Notre Dame, versus, say Texas or Florida, is academically more challenging. It's another added burden that some players, especially ones interested in only waiting till their junior year to jump to the NFL, won't take on.

I say this again-you want to compete like the 'now' boys of college football you must get the players that they are using. The university must provide a culture of winning-and you know what that means-certain young men must be admitted for the only purpose but to win football games. You cannot do this the way Notre Dame is trying to do it. It is impossible. Their athletes are to be congratulated for what they do and the effort-I would never call a player out but in reality we are not egual to the teams who are NFL minor league or just letting people in that are there to win football games. So in the words of dre-'what do you want to be'? I know what I want them to be and I see no reason why 85 guys who are athletes first and students second cant be on campus to entertain you on Sat and win football games. I've been saying this for years move to the MAC or let be done what Holtz was allowed to do. Its like being caught in a revolving door when these ideas are brought up about Notre Dame. It doesnt take a genius to know the difference between Notre Dame players and a typical SEC player. One thing or the other but for goodness sake make decision.

 

[dre1919]

Thanks for the words irishtrain. And believe me...I didn't write this or any other post to disparage the Fighting Irish...I love this team and the school (I didn't even go to school there, but I have been there once and love what they represent). I just wrote the original post because I truly do feel that until we make that "choice" we will always be looking for the next coach, the next excuse, the next season, or the next reason it takes to justify what we want (winning) and why we can't do it like the "now" big boys of college football. Trust me, if Notre Dame moved to the Ivy League I'd still be as big of a fan as I am now.

 

[irishtrain]

Thanks for the words irishtrain. And believe me...I didn't write this or any other post to disparage the Fighting Irish...I love this team and the school (I didn't even go to school there, but I have been there once and love what they represent). I just wrote the original post because I truly do feel that until we make that "choice" we will always be looking for the next coach, the next excuse, the next season, or the next reason it takes to justify what we want (winning) and why we can't do it like the "now" big boys of college football. Trust me, if Notre Dame moved to the Ivy League I'd still be as big of a fan as I am now.

Yes all good thoughts and like you I would love them even if they were in the Ivy/Mac. I understand alumni thinking its not good for the rep of the education that Notre Dame commands but in all honesty if you look at Mich for example they have a tremendous education available even though I can assure you Robinson is there for football. Its just an example I use to show what I mean. Ask the kids going to school there if they would mind 85 guys on campus becoming Notre Dame men but who are there to win football games. I think I know the answer. Somewhere along the line this happened-Notre Dame decided to make a statement on the student athlete. Well the statement has been made and the program is just surviving. Kelly is a great coach/if bad guys mess up throw their butts out/but how about not playing with one hand tied behind your back. Right now they are at a crossroads-there is just enough talent to go to a decent bowl and keep the TV contract because I like many see that they can win 9 games in good years. And I will loyally follow my beloved 'Irish'. Recently I do not get that mad at the losses-because I understand-these guys are doing their best. The culture of winning has been lost and to get it back you need to look to the format that was brought in under Holtz/Ara/Devine/Leahey/Rockne-that is the administration took the shackles off and send get it done. Go win football games. These last 15 years have been sad-the nation has lost a national sports treasure. College football yearns for the team in those golden helmets to come out of that tunnel and play like they have in the past. We are waiting for the decision makers at Notre Dame to make a move. I think its time that someone said these things and if the alumni dont like these words I understand but this is my slant. Notre Dame is at this stage no different that any 25-50 ranked team in the country-the only difference is that those other 25-50 ranked teams in their past were never a national icon. Once again the final thought of Notre Dame going Ivy or MAC is OK with me just do it to at least win at that level and keep what you want in place for the student athlete. In my opinion the decision makers are happy with the status quo-$$$ is being made and they have their control.

 

[kmader]

Personally I'm absolutely okay with winning a bit less than we used to if it means keeping up our academic integrity (and I think Kelly will get us back to winning well, irrespective of the academic question). ND is committed to giving its students (and all of them, at that) a quality education. That includes the football players. Certainly there is something to be said for keeping the classes within reason, but I absolutely love the fact that we produce well-educated and informed student-athletes. Certainly this keeps us from accepting some athletes who wouldn't quit be able to keep up in the classroom, but to lower our standards for the football players that attend this school (and to intentionally lower the educational bar set for them) isn't really fair to the 85 kids. Not all of them are going to be in the NFL, and the 75 players who won't will have gained a valid and thorough college education which is an incredibly valuable thing. I vote for not diminishing that by providing them with easier classes just so we can win a few more games.

(basically end result: I vote we move to the Ivy League (or stay where we are... whatever, really...)

P.S. I hope that didn't sound like too much of a diatribe or anything... that wasn't my intention, and I didn't mean to attack anybody else's viewpoint!

 

[D-BOE34]

...yup!