Hope you guys will forgive my ignorance, but.....

[davydoc]

Is there a protestant version of ND ? Or are there a few ? Just curious is all - I know there's us and BC as the Catholic Universities...

 

[lookingdeadred]

There are many colleges and universities that were founded as Protestant schools

There are many colleges and universities that were founded as Protestant schools

Most of the Ivies were founded as religious schools, but there are still more than a few Protestant schools around (BYU, Liberty, TCU, SMU, Baylor, etc).

Is there a protestant version of ND ? Or are there a few ? Just curious is all - I know there's us and BC as the Catholic Universities...

 

[davydoc]

Cheers for the answer man .

 

[NankerPhelge]

Yale and Harvard both were founded as Christian (Protestant) Universities. Wm. F. Buckley's book, "God and Man at Yale," which he wrote immediately after graduating from there in the 50's, attacked Yale for eliminating religion, to a great extent, from its curriculum. The book raised quite a stink, and was responsible for Buckley's rise to national prominence.

Don't mean to be provocative, but there is a huge debate going on right now as to whether ND is even a "Catholic" university anymore. One current philosophy/law professor, Alfred Frodoso, has written that Notre Dame is now merely a "public school in a Catholic neighborhood." You can find his writings online if you are truly interested.

Having, a vested interest, as do all alumni, I follow this controversy quite closely, and I find the things Buckley was pointing out in the 50's about Yale and the events that have occurred at Notre Dame over the past 30-40 years to be interestingly similar.

Again, not trying to start a big fight. Just thought I would give some serious input to your question.

 

[davydoc]

cheers, much appreciated

 

[IrishInColumbus]

Yale and Harvard both were founded as Christian (Protestant) Universities. Wm. F. Buckley's book, "God and Man at Yale," which he wrote immediately after graduating from there in the 50's, attacked Yale for eliminating religion, to a great extent, from its curriculum. The book raised quite a stink, and was responsible for Buckley's rise to national prominence.

Don't mean to be provocative, but there is a huge debate going on right now as to whether ND is even a "Catholic" university anymore. One current philosophy/law professor, Alfred Frodoso, has written that Notre Dame is now merely a "public school in a Catholic neighborhood." You can find his writings online if you are truly interested.

Having, a vested interest, as do all alumni, I follow this controversy quite closely, and I find the things Buckley was pointing out in the 50's about Yale and the events that have occurred at Notre Dame over the past 30-40 years to be interestingly similar.

Again, not trying to start a big fight. Just thought I would give some serious input to your question.

Inviting Obama went a long way in my book towards thinking they were less Catholic.

 

[DillonHall]

Yale and Harvard both were founded as Christian (Protestant) Universities. Wm. F. Buckley's book, "God and Man at Yale," which he wrote immediately after graduating from there in the 50's, attacked Yale for eliminating religion, to a great extent, from its curriculum. The book raised quite a stink, and was responsible for Buckley's rise to national prominence.

Don't mean to be provocative, but there is a huge debate going on right now as to whether ND is even a "Catholic" university anymore. One current philosophy/law professor, Alfred Frodoso, has written that Notre Dame is now merely a "public school in a Catholic neighborhood." You can find his writings online if you are truly interested.

Having, a vested interest, as do all alumni, I follow this controversy quite closely, and I find the things Buckley was pointing out in the 50's about Yale and the events that have occurred at Notre Dame over the past 30-40 years to be interestingly similar.

Again, not trying to start a big fight. Just thought I would give some serious input to your question.

Maybe secular and private, NOT public

 

[NankerPhelge]

Maybe secular and private, NOT public

I'm just quoting Frodoso.

 

[edgesofsanity]

Wesleyan University (and all the Insert State Here Wesleyans) are all named in honor of John Wesley, founder of the Methodist movement. Additionally, there are lots of private Christian colleges in the country that bring their roots back to Protestantism - take a look by state here.

 

[Jason Pham]

I may indulge in a longer reply later, but I will say emphatically that Notre Dame is not "public" as Fredosso claims, secular, or "less Catholic" because Obama spoke at its commencement. Notre Dame is not going to become insular as many of its allegedly "more Catholic" counterparts are, but if you want to know what secular and less Catholic look like, take a look at Georgetown. I have been overwhelmed by the opportunity to explore faith and spirituality at Notre Dame. Those who say those opportunities don't exist either aren't looking properly or are letting their limited experiences or scope of Notre Dame skew their views.

 

[davydoc]

Cheers guys, appreciate the info - will look into it a bit more , I find it very interesting.....

 

[NankerPhelge]

I may indulge in a longer reply later, but I will say emphatically that Notre Dame is not "public" as Fredosso claims, secular, or "less Catholic" because Obama spoke at its commencement. Notre Dame is not going to become insular as many of its allegedly "more Catholic" counterparts are, but if you want to know what secular and less Catholic look like, take a look at Georgetown. I have been overwhelmed by the opportunity to explore faith and spirituality at Notre Dame. Those who say those opportunities don't exist either aren't looking properly or are letting their limited experiences or scope of Notre Dame skew their views.

Jason: First of all, thank you for correcting my spelling. I can't ever seem to get his name spelled right.

I would be interested in having this conversation with you, as I am sure it would be interesting, although this board is probably not the right forum (unless, maybe in the Lep Lounge). You are right that the only way to truly explore these issues would be to indulge in a longer exchange. I will beg indulgence, however, to go this far:

I, for one, see the Obama incident as not isolated, but as just another sentence in a long story where ND seems to separating itself from communion with, and obedience too, the Holy See. I will say that I wasn't so much offended by his being invited to be the commencement speaker, because of his status as the President of the United States, whether one thinks that is a good thing or bad. However, as a lawyer and an ND alumnus, the conferring of an honorary Doctor of Laws degree by a "Catholic" university upon a man who's legal philosophy seems to be diametrically opposed to Catholic teaching on so many fundamental issues causes me deep concern.

I also think that it is absolutely possible to "explore faith and spirituality" in many different ways, in many "religions" and absent any "religion." I do not doubt your word in any way. The bigger question, though, as I see it, outside of your personal quest, is whether Notre Dame is instilling Catholic faith and spirituality, or something else. "Something else" may be OK, but it might not be Catholic.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Don't forget Georgetown, Fordham and the Loyolas are all Catholic.

Super fun fact of the day: so is The U. Not that you would recognize it as such.

 

[DillonHall]

Don't forget Georgetown, Fordham and the Loyolas are all Catholic.

Super fun fact of the day: so is The U. Not that you would recognize it as such.

Where did you get this info? The Univ. of Miami definitely is not affiliated with Catholicism.

 

[Jason Pham]

Jason: First of all, thank you for correcting my spelling. I can't ever seem to get his name spelled right.

I would be interested in having this conversation with you, as I am sure it would be interesting, although this board is probably not the right forum (unless, maybe in the Lep Lounge). You are right that the only way to truly explore these issues would be to indulge in a longer exchange. I will beg indulgence, however, to go this far:

I, for one, see the Obama incident as not isolated, but as just another sentence in a long story where ND seems to separating itself from communion with, and obedience too, the Holy See. I will say that I wasn't so much offended by his being invited to be the commencement speaker, because of his status as the President of the United States, whether one thinks that is a good thing or bad. However, as a lawyer and an ND alumnus, the conferring of an honorary Doctor of Laws degree by a "Catholic" university upon a man who's legal philosophy seems to be diametrically opposed to Catholic teaching on so many fundamental issues causes me deep concern.

I also think that it is absolutely possible to "explore faith and spirituality" in many different ways, in many "religions" and absent any "religion." I do not doubt your word in any way. The bigger question, though, as I see it, outside of your personal quest, is whether Notre Dame is instilling Catholic faith and spirituality, or something else. "Something else" may be OK, but it might not be Catholic.

I just don't see the Obama thing as indicative of an institutional deficiency. Say we assume that the invitation to Obama was indeed a categorically un-Catholic thing to do, which I would say warrants debate, the response from Notre Dame students and faculty alone is enough to say that Notre Dame was not in consensus on the matter. This endogenous response was overshadowed by the more vitriolic response from outside parties, but the dissent from campus was resounding and says to me that the conservative Catholic conscious, if no other, is well-represented and voiced. Just as the views of Obama should not lead you to assume what is or is not the views of the American people, the views of the current Notre Dame administration should not necessarily indicate the views of the institutions as a whole.

I have a hard time believe that, as an alum, you didn't see the university forwarding a distinctly Catholic program (though of course without discrimination against the "something else"). Mass is celebrated over eighty times per week between the basilica, its crypt, the dorm chapels, and the two seminaries. Crucifixes are hung in every classroom, I've started more than a few classes with prayer, the celebration of vespers, Eucharistic adoration and processions, Emmaus groups, sending students to Holy Cross missions nationally and overseas. These are just a few examples of the opportunities available. As a member of a liturgical choir in the Basilica, I admit that I may encounter the Catholic presence more than the average student, but my point is its presence is far from lacking and may be, as it has been to me, overwhelming for those who seek it.

 

[DillonHall]

I just don't see the Obama thing as indicative of an institutional deficiency. Say we assume that the invitation to Obama was indeed a categorically un-Catholic thing to do, which I would say warrants debate, the response from Notre Dame students and faculty alone is enough to say that Notre Dame was in consensus on the matter. This endogenous response was overshadowed by the more vitriolic response from outside parties, but the dissent from campus was resounding and says to me that the conservative Catholic conscious, if no other, is well-represented and voiced. Just as the views of Obama should not lead you to assume what is or is not the views of the American people, the views of the current Notre Dame administration should not necessarily indicate the views of the institutions as a whole.

I have a hard time believe that, as an alum, you didn't see the university forwarding a distinctly Catholic program (though of course without discrimination against the "something else"). Mass is celebrated over eighty times per week between the basilica, its crypt, the dorm chapels, and the two seminaries. Crucifixes are hung in every classroom, I've started more than a few classes with prayer, the celebration of vespers, Eucharistic adoration and processions, Emmaus groups, sending students to Holy Cross missions nationally and overseas. These are just a few examples of the opportunities available. As a member of a liturgical choir in the Basilica, I admit that I may encounter the Catholic presence more than the average student, but my point is its presence is far from lacking and may be, as it has been to me, overwhelming for those who seek it.

I have a couple thoughts on your comments:

1. I don't think that there was consensus at all on the Obama matter. Those who opposed were very vocal, but they were far fewer in number than those who saw no problem with the invitation, despite the serious divide in philosophy between the president's views and those of the Catholic Church.

2. Just because there are signs of Catholicism does not mean that it has decreased significantly over the past 2-3 decades. Prayers in class used to be common, but nowadays quite rare outside of the theology department. Also, just because there's mass doesn't mean that attendance is high. I would say barely half of the student population attends mass regularly.

 

[davydoc]

Don't forget Georgetown, Fordham and the Loyolas are all Catholic.

Super fun fact of the day: so is The U. Not that you would recognize it as such.

What is the U ???

 

[NankerPhelge]

Jason:

Again, it was not so much the invitation that bugged me, it was the conferring of the honorary doctorate of law degree.

With the greatest respect to you, I don't know that the opportunities to pursue Catholicism which you describe necessarily point to Notre Dame's dedication to being a Catholic University. The presence of those things could just as easily be seen as supporting Fredosso's point that the education at Notre Dame takes place within a "Catholic neighborhood." But that does not mean, and I think that this is his argument, that the education students are receiving is based in Catholic philosophy and theology, as it was in the past. And that this is the administration's choice, and has been for a long time, as it is more important to the administration to compete with now-secular schools like Harvard and Yale. I don't think it is any accident that Father Hesburgh's official portrait that hangs in the Ad Building has him dressed in a Harvard robe from where he received one of his honorary degrees, rather than in Notre Dame attire.

Again, just discussing. My deepest respect to you.

 

[ryno 24]

Notre Dame is still very Catholic I go to Xavier Universitys Jesuit (so supposedly Catholic) and it doesnt hold itself near to the standard as ND
There are some incidents that lead ND to be less Catholic but most elements are still Catholic... bringing Obama did not help but Notre Dame is still a Catholic institution... the church screwed up in the middle ages... notre dame is screwing up now...and the new bishop will probably help fix the problem.... to the original question... tcu is Christian and has same of the same of the pull and Byu might be Christian depends on who you ask but they are somewhat similar bases

 

[davydoc]

What was the problem with Obama coming to campus ? Was he not invited as the President of the country , as opposed to a member of another religion ????

 

[Jason Pham]

I have a couple thoughts on your comments:

1. I don't think that there was consensus at all on the Obama matter. Those who opposed were very vocal, but they were far fewer in number than those who saw no problem with the invitation, despite the serious divide in philosophy between the president's views and those of the Catholic Church.

2. Just because there are signs of Catholicism does not mean that it has decreased significantly over the past 2-3 decades. Prayers in class used to be common, but nowadays quite rare outside of the theology department. Also, just because there's mass doesn't mean that attendance is high. I would say barely half of the student population attends mass regularly.

Typo on my part on the first point. I meant to say that there wasn't a consensus, so the Obama matter can't be institutionally indicative. There were, as you said, those who were all for it, those who didn't see it as a problem, and those who did. The views of the administration may be at odds with Catholic teaching, but they do not represent the university as a whole.

As for your second point, I agree. Undoubtedly, Notre Dame has become more secular since Hesburgh took the reins. Still, I would argue that Notre Dame is far from becoming a secular institution or that it is trying to do so. I'm currently applying to law school and the Notre Dame admissions process is known among the top twenty-five or so schools to be the most concerned, beyond the numbers, with the character and values of its applicants, especially as they resonate with the school's Catholic traditions. Again, relative to its history as a Catholic institutions, Notre Dame may not be what it once was, but it has not abandoned its Catholicism.

 

[ryno 24]

the u is not catholic but private
Notre Dame is still one of the most Catholic Universities in the Nation

 

[Jason Pham]

Jason:

Again, it was not so much the invitation that bugged me, it was the conferring of the honorary doctorate of law degree.

With the greatest respect to you, I don't know that the opportunities to pursue Catholicism which you describe necessarily point to Notre Dame's dedication to being a Catholic University. The presence of those things could just as easily be seen as supporting Fredosso's point that the education at Notre Dame takes place within a "Catholic neighborhood." But that does not mean, and I think that this is his argument, that the education students are receiving is based in Catholic philosophy and theology, as it was in the past. And that this is the administration's choice, and has been for a long time, as it is more important to the administration to compete with now-secular schools like Harvard and Yale. I don't think it is any accident that Father Hesburgh's official portrait that hangs in the Ad Building has him dressed in a Harvard robe from where he received one of his honorary degrees, rather than in Notre Dame attire.

Again, just discussing. My deepest respect to you.

The scope of my argument doesn't distinguish between the invitation and the conferring of the degree. I'm arguing that neither of these actions should be considered indicative of the values of Notre Dame as a whole. They are, without question, those of the administration and, undoubtedly, the administration plays a consequential role in the development of the university, but they do not represent the entirety of the views of Notre Dame students, faculty and community at large. As I haven't had enough contact with the administration myself, it's the latter group that, to me, is Notre Dame. (This is not to say that nobody in the latter group agreed with the administration, but rather to say that there was no consensus.)

As for your second part, as with DillonHall, I can't argue with the facts. And Notre Dame is undoubtedly less Catholic in nature than before Hesburgh shook things up. Relative to its past then, perhaps Notre Dame is in decline in that respect. Relative to other schools, however, we are far from becoming secular.

 

[Jason Pham]

What was the problem with Obama coming to campus ? Was he not invited as the President of the country , as opposed to a member of another religion ????

The problem wasn't the invitation (though many, who disagreed with Obama politically may not have been the most thrilled), the problem was with giving him an honorary degree when the Church hierarchy has explicitly state that: "Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles. They should not be given awards, honors or platforms which would suggest support for their actions." The dissenting argument is that Obama has acted in defiance of moral principles and therefore ought not be given the honorary degree. The Jenkins administration argues that they are not supporting his views on abortion, but rather on other social issues. The argument is over the ambiguity of Church teaching on the matter of conferring honors.

 

[DillonHall]

As for your second part, as with DillonHall, I can't argue with the facts. And Notre Dame is undoubtedly less Catholic in nature than before Hesburgh shook things up. Relative to its past then, perhaps Notre Dame is in decline in that respect. Relative to other schools, however, we are far from becoming secular.

No doubt, compared to most universities, ND overwhelmingly exudes Catholicism.

 

[NankerPhelge]

Thanks for the great conversation. I think I am about done beating this horse, at least for now. My final observation is that I think this thread is a nice microcosm of the debate (I would call it a battle) that is going on within the administration and faculty, and which has been going on for some time, over what kind of a university Notre Dame is, and will become, and what it means to be a truly "Catholic" university.

 

[IrishinSyria]

I would say that Notre Dame has become a secular university with a strong Catholic ethos. If you look at the work that ND faculty and students have done ranging from international human rights to on-campus groups like Green ND, the university is a better example of Catholic values than the Catholic church itself. And, like Jason said, there's plenty of opportunity to pursue your spiritual development if that's your calling.

 

[davydoc]

Guys coverage now available on und.com......take a wee break....lol

 

[lookingdeadred]

It seems like the tempest over the Obama speech

It seems like the tempest over the Obama speech

reflects a deeper divide among some here over what it means to be Catholic. There is more to being Catholic than one issue.

I would say that Notre Dame has become a secular university with a strong Catholic ethos. If you look at the work that ND faculty and students have done ranging from international human rights to on-campus groups like Green ND, the university is a better example of Catholic values than the Catholic church itself. And, like Jason said, there's plenty of opportunity to pursue your spiritual development if that's your calling.

 

[Jason Pham]

We're back to reasoned discourse for those who care for such things.

- Your friendly neighborhood banhammerer.