Question About Navy Offense

NankerPhelge

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To Zibby and Neutered: thanks for the discussion. That sort of detailed "bringing something to the table" was what I've hoped for every time I've logged on and rarely get. Please post at these high levels whenever you find it appropriate. The folks who are just amusing themselves don't have to read it and can head for the Leprechaun Lounge. Thank you again.

I just have to say "ditto" to Old Man Mike's comments here. This type of in-depth and fascinating analysis is the exact thing that: a) kept me coming back to this site as a "lurker" for the past five years or so (along with the highly entertaining ****-slinging that frequently occurs) and b) kept me from becoming a member and posting out of sheer intimidation and the realization that I am totally unqualified to engage in this level of football discussion. But I can't help but to admire and appreciate the technical acumen for the game that is illustrated by this conversation and others like them.

So, I am relegated to simply being a life-long ND fan from the heart, not the brain, and hope I can throw in a wise-*ss remark from time to time to ease the tension and maybe bring a smile or a laugh, not to mention simply justifying my existence as a member here. But, really do appreciate the knowledgeable insight.
 

TerryTate

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Actually, my read on the wildly variant rushing defense stats is that statistically you could make a defensible [at least not obviously crazy] hypothesis that the defense was trending in a good direction and the Navy game was a statistical anomaly. Any defense of the concept of an anomaly would rest on the fact that Navy is totally unlike any of the other teams [the closest analog being a healthy Denard Robinson Michigan --- I say this only because his QB running and scrambling are the only other truly unconventional thing we've seen]. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------But giving devils their due: what if we considered the normal statistical practice of tossing out the "high" and the "low"?? In doing this it could be defensibly said that a true "fairness" existed, since our strangling of BC was followed by nearly two hundred yards by their stud back vs Florida State. This begins to make us look like a team which gives up about 160 yards or so [I'm just flash reading the numbers--you can do the exact math] per game, which doesn't sound catastrophic. If one objects to including WMU in there, then also toss the Denard anomaly out [fair's fair--another high/low], and the rushing per game is right around 150/160 again. Whether any of us judge this as acceptable or not, what it says to me is that we've been unusually stressed by two odd situations and otherwise seem to hold up. Also, the fact that the four games previous to Navy were at or better than the 150-160 "average", goes to Zibby's point---which in the end I agree with, but like a good scientist will await further data in the next games. Hey, it's my view, could be wrong but no offense [no pun intended].

Can some more people rep this guy? Finally some logic and reasoning.
 

Old Man Mike

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Well gang, [thanks Terry, by the way, for your generous praise---actually embarrasses me a bit], it's nearly midnight in West Virginia and this old man should be calling the day over, but I have an urge to post something that has been bugging me about the Navy game and our inability to stop their offense. This is going to be largely BS so get your crap detectors up and working. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------We all know that football has been compared to war [battlelines, strategies, generals, troops, victory/defeat, and on and on]. Navy's in the "war business"; they're good at it. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Navy coaching staff took a big picture look at their season and said: "Notre Dame's the battle that we're going to do something special for". They might say this not to slight Army or Air Force, but with the idea that this was the game that would gain them the most national street cred with media and potential players and bowl bids. If so, what might they have done?-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------George C. Scott said in Patton [when he had defeated Rommel/// yes, I know it was a fictional quote but it makes the point] : "Rommel you magnificent bas*ard!! I read your book!!" I think that the Navy coaching staff "read Kelly's book". By that I mean that they knew that Kelly and thereby his staff are optimists about the winning value of thoroughness of preparation even to micromanagement detail. This detailed systematization of offense is not too risky if you're a genius [Kelly is], but defensively it might not be so. In other words, Kelly can put out an unstoppable offensive plan, which will not work only if we ourselves screw it up, or we're playing the Pittsburgh Steelers. Offensively, he says: here we come and there's not much you can do about it. But what about defense??--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------whereas we activate the action offensively, we only react defensively. [generally speaking]. If you try to use the Kelly philosophy, and your name is Coach Diaco, you're going to scout the heck out of every piece of film you've got for patterns, and micromanage/coach a defense aimed at those patterns in such detail that they threaten to become robotic rather than spontaneous [as defense at least half needs to be]. Well, if you know exactly what the bad guys are going to do, you'll be OK. But what if they break their patterns?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I think that it's just possible that Navy planned for this from the beginning. They "read Kelly's, and Diaco's, book" and knew that if they showed only one strong running pattern that Diaco would micromanage for it. So they came out doing something subtly different, and our great plans robotically went awry. But their staff didn't stop there. They knew Diaco would figure it out and adjust at halftime. So they had a second half "we're ahead of you" tweaked plan of shifting subtleties for that too. NONE of which they'd showed precisely before. They read our book, planned their war, and we were wrong-footed all day. If anything like that went on, it would explain why Kelly said what he said about them doing different things at halftime, and the many "not-quite-veer/not-quite-ever same" subtleties that Neutered has noticed in his analysis of the game films. And it should be Hats-Off to their staff. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yeh, you're right---WAY too much speculation. Attribute it to the lateness of the hour. At least maybe it was a bit amusing. Falling asleep at the computer---see you guys on a clearer day.
 

NeuteredDoomer

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Guess I'll add this.. There are maybe a few ways of watching the game. I think many, if not most of us, watch the game "holistically." Coaches and nerds watch every play on film over and over and can get a truer idea of what is going on. Kudos to CBS for some of the replays. Replays from north south showed EXACTLY what was going on.

We all watch the game through our own experience.

ND defense is coming along, as Zibby stated. This game was an outlier in the equation.

Seems.
 
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phork

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Guess I'll add this.. There are maybe a few ways of watching the game. I think many, if not most of us, watch the game "holistically." Coaches and nerds watch every play on film over and over and can get a truer idea of what is going on. Kudos to CBS for some of the replays. Replays from north south showed EXACTLY what was going on.

We all watch the game through our own experience.

ND defense is coming along, as Zibby stated. This game was an outlier in the equation.

Seems.

It seems, or you hope?
 

lookingdeadred

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Isn't sticking to your base a conservative approach?

Isn't sticking to your base a conservative approach?

That said, basically I think we are in agreement.
I wouldnt necessarily label it a conservative approach...just simple! the more you stick to your base defense the easier it is for your defenders to run and make plays!
 

irishfan

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Thinking back on our lack of Defense this past week, when all hell broke lose why didn't Diaco just have our D in this formation?

5 DL: Lewis-Moore, Cwynar, I. Williams, H. Williams, Johnson
2 CB: Walls, Gray
4 LB: Te'o, Motta, H. Smith, McCarthy

Just have our 5 d-lineman just man up on all their o-lineman, have Te'o on the FB, McCarthy and Motta on the wingbacks and Smith on Dobbs. Walls and Gray on the wideouts. The "LBs" would all be lined up 3-5 yards behind the d-line. Obviously plays where Navy was lined up with 6 down lineman, you could have Fleming or Neal sub into the game. Just makes way more sense this way where it is actually a fine thing to have your d-line all get chopped to the ground (the backers/safeties wont get caught in traffic) as opposed to with 3 down lineman where the 5-6 Navy lineman can confuse the backers. Just a thought me and my brother had while sitting in the end zone last Saturday watching the D get shredded again and again.
 

lookingdeadred

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Two DBs???

Two DBs???

Seriously?
Thinking back on our lack of Defense this past week, when all hell broke lose why didn't Diaco just have our D in this formation?

5 DL: Lewis-Moore, Cwynar, I. Williams, H. Williams, Johnson
2 CB: Walls, Gray
4 LB: Te'o, Motta, H. Smith, McCarthy

Just have our 5 d-lineman just man up on all their o-lineman, have Te'o on the FB, McCarthy and Motta on the wingbacks and Smith on Dobbs. Walls and Gray on the wideouts. The "LBs" would all be lined up 3-5 yards behind the d-line. Obviously plays where Navy was lined up with 6 down lineman, you could have Fleming or Neal sub into the game. Just makes way more sense this way where it is actually a fine thing to have your d-line all get chopped to the ground (the backers/safeties wont get caught in traffic) as opposed to with 3 down lineman where the 5-6 Navy lineman can confuse the backers. Just a thought me and my brother had while sitting in the end zone last Saturday watching the D get shredded again and again.
 

IrishinSyria

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Seriously?

Well, two of those guys are safeties so you could call them hybrids if that would make you feel better.

Or play a 5-3 or a 4-4. Whatever it takes, Navy threw the ball three times all day because they didn't need to, they were handling us on the ground every single play. We needed to adjust and we didn't.
 

Anchorman

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Well, two of those guys are safeties so you could call them hybrids if that would make you feel better.

Or play a 5-3 or a 4-4. Whatever it takes, Navy threw the ball three times all day because they didn't need to, they were handling us on the ground every single play. We needed to adjust and we didn't.

Navy only threw three times because that's what they do. Last year Navy didn't throw a pass one game. Had the safeties moved up, they would have taken to the air.
 

phork

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Just an FYI. Duke gave up 150 yards on the ground to Navy. Anchors away.
 

IrishinSyria

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Just an FYI. Duke gave up 150 yards on the ground to Navy. Anchors away.

Not really the same thing as Navy was playing catch up for most of the game and seems to have had a bad case of "big" win hangover.
 

phork

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Not really the same thing as Navy was playing catch up for most of the game and seems to have had a bad case of "big" win hangover.

Oh I see. Its not that we sucked. Sorry! Note to Swarbrick: Please schedule Navy next year AFTER they get a big win.
 

IrishinSyria

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Oh I see. Its not that we sucked. Sorry! Note to Swarbrick: Please schedule Navy next year AFTER they get a big win.

hmm... seeing as Navy put up 31 points against Duke in the second half and zero in the first half, there's no way that it could have been both? We sucked and Navy didn't come ready to play?*

edit: Navy played a perfect game against us. No incomplete passes, no turnovers, no penalties. Nobody can do that every week, think they might have been a little extra focused for the ND game?
 

NeuteredDoomer

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PS: Here is a nice breakdown of the Navy ND game from a Navy fan.

NAVY 35, NOTRE DAME 17 « The Birddog

It is a decent breakdown, but not all that accurate concerning the ND backers. I don't think the guy understands the 3-4 (5-2). He was also off with his assessment of the fullback shooting toward the B gap. Fullback shot A gap almost the entire game. Just look at the QB stepping back for the first read to FB. QB does not step back if FB is headed toward B.

He does support what I was saying regarding the fact that Navy was not running veer, and he too was as baffled as I was by Kelly's statement that ND was surprised by the Veer. The writer also mentions the Belly option, or 32 trap that I talked about and showed a schematic. It is set call, not an option, and not the veer.

Bottom line, Navy ran picture perfect offense that day, exactly the way it is drawn up. And ND was sitting ducks. I did notice more crossing between TNT this past weekend, but, oh well...
 
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