Back to the 3-4 Defense

[alleycat9]

i am not a huge fan of the 3-4 defense. it is far too dependent on a dominant nose tackle to be a strong defense. if you have a big monster who can take the center and one of the guards on EVERY single play... and then make plays while being doubled you will be awesome. if you do not have a monster nose you will be in BIG BIG trouble.

and it takes more than a big kid do it. in college its so tough to run because of the lack of consistency year over year. kids are not going to be big enough their freshman year... they will be best in their junior year... if they are great they will be off to the pros because there are so few 3-4 nt that come out of college. then you have to hope you have ANOTHER guy right behind them.

this is why you rarely see the 3-4 played in college. its just a tough defense to run in college. you really have to have a monster nt to make it work.

 

[Maddog77]

Irregardless of what defense we play, if we don't see vastly improved o-line and d-line play this year, it won't matter what we're running because teams will just run over us and we'll end up in shootouts.

 

[IrishInFl]

Irregardless of what defense we play, if we don't see vastly improved o-line and d-line play this year, it won't matter what we're running because teams will just run over us and we'll end up in shootouts.

For the love of all that is holy, please say you were joking when you typed this.

 

[Maddog77]

I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

Maybe my statement wasn't clear enough. Our D-line play was horrendous this year, so all I was saying is that no matter if we play a 4-3 or 3-4 if we don't see an improvement we'll be giving up alot of points, but I trust in BK's system enough that we'll also put up alot of points.

As for our O-line play, that was also atrocious, so I thought I'd throw that in there also.

If I'm not addressing what you think I should be joking about, please pm me, otherwise I'll conclude that this is resolved.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Irregardless isn't a word...

 

[Maddog77]

Irregardless isn't a word...

irregardless - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Taken from the same site entry

The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however.

Urban Dictionary: irregardless

Taken from the same site entry

Of course everyone knows what you mean to say and only a pompous,rude asshole will correct you.
Wife: "Irregardless is not a word, dummy"
Husband: "Kiss my ass bitch! I'm still going to the strip club tonight!"

Obviously, the second site I used in jest, but I think you get the general idea.

 

[irishfan]

B. Smith needs to prove himself all over again. He needs to learn now to tackle. I fit he fits better as a DE in nickel situations.

Agree, but barring some sort of huge upset, he'll be the defensive captain and probably a starter by default.

 

[IrishInFl]

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[Ben E.]

i disagree with people that say that the 3-4 can only be successfull if you have a dominate nose guard. i would counter that the 4-3 defense relies much more on a dominate 3 technique than the odd front does a ng. i would even go as far as to say that the absence of a dominate 3 tech. is the number one reason why nd defense has been so poor. pure and simple nd has struggled to recruit dominate d-lineman recently but have been fairly successfull at with athletic linebacker types so for me its pretty simple. the more linebackers the better! hell i think they should look into that 3-3-5 or 3-5-3 defense!

 

[Riddickulous]

Ethan Johnson can finally move back to his normal position.

 

[Guest]

All of ND DT are undersized. Most of them would make good DE in the 3-4, but we still lack the dominant NT. Our DT are all in the 290 to 295 range, and that will definately not cut it. That is why ND abandoned the 3-4 to begin with, because they could not fill that NT spot.

KLM is also undersized to play DE at 270. If he bulks up to 290, he may lose his athleticism which is his biggest asset. At 270, het gets run over by the guard and tackle. A TE could also block down on him pretty effectively if they wanted to double team the NT.

The LB may fit the 3-4, but the DL we have here are not all fit for that scheme. That means we need to recruit a serious 310+ DL and beef him up for two years, hope he doesn't lose his ability to move around, and get him in the lineup in year 3. This is going to be another rough defensive transition next year.

 

[49er-Irish]

All of ND DT are undersized. Most of them would make good DE in the 3-4, but we still lack the dominant NT. Our DT are all in the 290 to 295 range, and that will definately not cut it. That is why ND abandoned the 3-4 to begin with, because they could not fill that NT spot.

KLM is also undersized to play DE at 270. If he bulks up to 290, he may lose his athleticism which is his biggest asset. At 270, het gets run over by the guard and tackle. A TE could also block down on him pretty effectively if they wanted to double team the NT.

The LB may fit the 3-4, but the DL we have here are not all fit for that scheme. That means we need to recruit a serious 310+ DL and beef him up for two years, hope he doesn't lose his ability to move around, and get him in the lineup in year 3. This is going to be another rough defensive transition next year.

ND didn't abandon the 3-4 because they couldn't get a NT. They abandoned it because Tenuta took over the defense and he runs a 4-3 defense. If Corwin was still running the show last year I'm sure you would have seen a 3-4 scheme.

I'll take KLM at 270 to play DE. Even though I bet he'll be a little bigger next season. He was listed at 6'5" 225 lbs in his senior year in high school when ND was recruiting him. Besides, I think (and really hope) that the DL are taught to penetrate next year. This year they were trying to plug and maintain gaps and that didn't work with ND's personnel.

I won't be expecting a rough transition. Most of the current players were recruited for the 3-4 and have played in the scheme already.

The 3-4 definitely fits the personnel on defense. Filer and Fleming on the edges could be fun to watch!

 

[BearGB]

As long as it has become a major subject of debate, I thought I would post the possibilities for the NT position next year, and what their status is: (ISD weight first/UND weight second)

Ian Williams 6'2" 310/295 SR
- Had a pretty good run-stopping year last year, can he even put more weight on??

Brandon Newman 6'0" 310/295 SOPH (RS)
- Big kid with limited height. I don't think he had barely anytime this year. Can he contribute?

Hafis Williams 6'2" 302/295 SOPH (RS)
- This is my biggest question from last year... I know he battled injuries a little bit very early in the season, but why did he not see any PT later??

Sean Cwynar 6'4" 283/283 SOPH (RS)
- Is he big enough/athletic enough to play the position?

Tyler Stockton 6'1" 290/290 FR (RS)
- Kid should have mad talent, and hopefully he can add some size to his frame. Would love to see him in there next year.

Louis Nix 6'3" 318 FR
- Nix is almost there size-wise already. It would be nice to see him get up to maybe 330 with speed - but he is the best as of now. Will he realistically be able to handle experienced double-teams as a true freshman however?

I am not a master, at all!, of the position, however I thought it would help to provide a list of the options for NT next year. I'm excited to see who people think can realistically contribute besides the relatively proven Ian Williams... Also, if anyone can help to answer some some of those questions - especially regarding Hafis, I would really appreciate it! Thanks!

 

[The Polish Irishman]

I think Cynwar would be moved to end in the 3-4.

Ian was at 295 lbs. at the beginning of this season.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Cwynar is perfect for a 3-4 DE.

 

[BearGB]

I think Cynwar would be moved to end in the 3-4.

Ian was at 295 lbs. at the beginning of this season.

Makes sense with Sean. I know UND had him listed at 295, however ISD had him at 310. I went with ISD's numbers, but I will post UND's as well.

 

[kmoose]

KLM is also undersized to play DE at 270. If he bulks up to 290, he may lose his athleticism which is his biggest asset. At 270, het gets run over by the guard and tackle. A TE could also block down on him pretty effectively if they wanted to double team the NT.

270 is certainly not undersized, for a DE. Based on the rest of your comments, I'm assuming that you meant that he was undersized, to play NT?

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

KLM is the right size for a 3-4 DE. He's probably going to get bigger and can keep his athleticism.

 

[BearGB]

270 is certainly not undersized, for a DE. Based on the rest of your comments, I'm assuming that you meant that he was undersized, to play NT?

I really, really like KLM and his athleticism, however, 270 could be considered slightly undersized in a 3-4 defense. For example, Alabama's starting DE's are 290 and 287. We will not be Alabama's D next year, clearly. So I looked at Cal's starting DE's: 295 and 287. Virginia's were 290 and 270. The advantage for KLM is he is strong and fast. I agree with you, kmoose, that he can definitely play the position. However, I think in the strict sense, he is slightly undersized.

 

[neoroks32]

I really, really like KLM and his athleticism, however, 270 could be considered slightly undersized in a 3-4 defense. For example, Alabama's starting DE's are 290 and 287. We will not be Alabama's D next year, clearly. So I looked at Cal's starting DE's: 295 and 287. Virginia's were 290 and 270. The advantage for KLM is he is strong and fast. I agree with you, kmoose, that he can definitely play the position. However, I think in the strict sense, he is slightly undersized.

if KLM can lose weight maybe he can play some LB

 

[BearGB]

if KLM can lose weight maybe he can play some LB

No, no. KLM is and should be a DE. I am really, really high on him. I definitely believe he makes up for his slight size disadvantage with good strength and some nasty moves. He will definitely bulk up if need be... the guy is 6'4", so he should be able to do it. With a 3-4 scheme, you will see the OLBs on the line a lot - sometimes even with their hands down.

 

[fightinirish68]

270 isnt too small. klm is more of a pass rusher than a strong de

 

[Guest]

ND didn't abandon the 3-4 because they couldn't get a NT. They abandoned it because Tenuta took over the defense and he runs a 4-3 defense. If Corwin was still running the show last year I'm sure you would have seen a 3-4 scheme.

I'll take KLM at 270 to play DE. Even though I bet he'll be a little bigger next season. He was listed at 6'5" 225 lbs in his senior year in high school when ND was recruiting him. Besides, I think (and really hope) that the DL are taught to penetrate next year. This year they were trying to plug and maintain gaps and that didn't work with ND's personnel.

I won't be expecting a rough transition. Most of the current players were recruited for the 3-4 and have played in the scheme already.

The 3-4 definitely fits the personnel on defense. Filer and Fleming on the edges could be fun to watch!

One of the factors in their decision was personnel. This factor was considered before Tenuta was brought in. The DL we had was too small and we couldn't compete with the FL and LSUs of the world to get that dominant NT.

Yes I think some players, like Neal, may benefit more by playing in the 3-4. I said our LBs could make the transition pretty easy. But is is also clear to see that our DL is not a typical 3-4 DL. We are undersized, and that will be a problem against good running teams.

 

[Guest]

270 is certainly not undersized, for a DE. Based on the rest of your comments, I'm assuming that you meant that he was undersized, to play NT?

He is undersized to play DE in a 3-4. Typically your 3-4 DE will be in the 300 range. They have to go straight up on guards, and get doubled by guards and tackles. They have to occupy much like the NT does, and free up the LBs to shoot gaps and be the playmakers. 270 is definately undersized for this role.

I know quite a bit about the 3-4 because my favorite pro team, the Cowboys, play it and made the transition a few years ago. Plus, I have studied other 3-4 teams like the Steelers and Patiots. I am aware these are pro teams, but the concept is the same in college as it is in the pros. You have to have size at both DE and especially at NT.

 

[Guest]

270 isnt too small. klm is more of a pass rusher than a strong de

We are talking about a 3-4 defense which requires bigger DLineman, not a 4-3 where you can utilize pass rushing specialists. The pass rushing specialists in the 3-4 are your LBs. The DL occupy blocks which allow the LBs to make the plays.

 

[kmoose]

He is undersized to play DE in a 3-4. Typically your 3-4 DE will be in the 300 range. They have to go straight up on guards, and get doubled by guards and tackles. They have to occupy much like the NT does, and free up the LBs to shoot gaps and be the playmakers. 270 is definately undersized for this role.

I know quite a bit about the 3-4 because my favorite pro team, the Cowboys, play it and made the transition a few years ago. Plus, I have studied other 3-4 teams like the Steelers and Patiots. I am aware these are pro teams, but the concept is the same in college as it is in the pros. You have to have size at both DE and especially at NT.

It takes more than simple size to tie up space. That can also be accomplished by technique. I would agree that you would rather have a 290 lber on the end, but a 270 lb guy is plenty big enough to do it.

 

[johnnykillz]

I, traditionally, enjoy a good 4-3 defense. Although, according to nfl.com's senior analyst, Pat Kirwan, "The NFL's top two defenses (Pittsburgh and Baltimore) are 3-4 teams. The top two defenses in sacks (Dallas and Pittsburgh) are 3-4 teams. Therefore, it might be time to consider the 3-4 a better package against modern offenses."

Effectiveness of 3-4 vs. 4-3 is found in the numbers

To note is the fact college football and NFL are truly much different in terms of overall position speed, experience, and situational awareness - that is intelligence.