I believe the fact we are INDEPENDENT has contributed to our collective delusions.

[PhilsRule]

It is no secret that we as a fan base overrate the team every preseason. If I had a dollar for every post on this site about the BCS bowl we were going to go to an win - I'd be a very wealthy man.

I believe we get conned into this thinking because of our non-affiliation with a conference. Essentially, it tricks us into thinking we are better than we are because of the competition we face.

Imagine for a moment that we played in the Big 10, Big East, or SEC for the last 3 years. Plus maybe we throw in USC, Navy, and someone to trample (i.e. SDSU or Nevada).

There is no way we would be better than a middling team in those conferences. We would have finished those seasons with 4 or 5 losses with our current talent, BUT we would better be able to gauge ourselves in order to get better moving forward.

As it currently stands, we are like gypsys or mercenaries and it doesn't help us develop.

 

[PADOMERNUT]

This is a moronic comment. We play 7-8 bowl teams per year. How being independant makes us delusional makes absolutely zero sense.

 

[PhilsRule]

This is a moronic comment. We play 7-8 bowl teams per year. How being independant makes us delusional makes absolutely zero sense.

You do understand that there is a difference between playing Ohio St. and Wisconsin as opposed to Purdue and Michigan State, right?

That there is a difference between a BCS bowl and the Chick-Fil-A Bluebonnet Bowl?

Right.

Also, don't call me a moron if you can't spell independent.

 

[sonomairishfan]

i think joining a conf. would not be smart on ND's part. then TV $ goes away and we'd have to share all contracts with the conf.

right now we have NBC, an auto bid to BcS and freedom to schedule who we please.

makes sense to stay the way we are= pulling in tons of money each year that stays in South Bend.

what's with all the name calling guys?

 

[sonomairishfan]

and Purdue and MSU are two very traditional games that will more than likely stay on the schedule out of repect. i like these two games each year, they are always entertaining.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

This is stupid.

 

[PhilsRule]

and Purdue and MSU are two very traditional games that will more than likely stay on the schedule out of repect. i like these two games each year, they are always entertaining.

The points you raise above are all valid, but even still, i think joining a conference will make us a better program in the long run. I want to win. That's it. I don't care if we have our own tv contract. In fact, I think having one in some ways hurts us. Having announcers call our games that have jobs dependent on appeasing ND fans makes them less inclined to tell the harsh truth about our coaching during actual games. they go out of their way to ignore the bad and enhance the good.

 

[PADOMERNUT]

You do understand that there is a difference between playing Ohio St. and Wisconsin as opposed to Purdue and Michigan State, right?

That there is a difference between a BCS bowl and the Chick-Fil-A Bluebonnet Bowl?

Right.

Also, don't call me a moron if you can't spell independent.

My spell check isnt on, sorry. And you want to call us delusional but you are the type of person who thinks our schedule is weak because we dont play Texas, Florida, USC, Ohio St, etc every year. Get a grip on reality son.

 

[dre1919]

Well, I've long since thought the Independent status Notre Dame's football team enjoys is a precarious one. One one hand, it's useful because it allows us to play as difficult a schedule as we want, which makes us look much better to pollsters when we win them all (or most of them). On the other hand, it's definitely an "all or nothing" issue because conferences have bowl tie-ins and revenue sharing. So, if the #5 team in the Big XII has a so-so year, they still enjoy the middle tier bowl their conference is tied into and get some portion of money from their power teams' big bowl appearances.

Personally, I think the time for Independents in college football is outdated and needs to pass. It looks bad for the BCS to have a "Notre Dame" clause since we're an Independent. Sure, it's there because traditionally no Independent plays as hard of a schedule as we do so the reward is waiting if we make it. But, it gives the ND haters ammo for the case that we're spoiled and coddled in the system.

Secondly, of late we have been easing back on the murderous scheduling (because a dose of reality has apparently started to sink in) so the need for a "take all comers" schedule isn't as high. I think we should either accept the standing invitation the Big Ten has always had for us (thereby always guaranteeing a Rose Bowl bid when we go undefeated) or join the Big East like our other sports teams.

Either way, it's more sound football business. Sure, we don't get the full $13 million payout from a BCS game all to ourselves, but we lose the special treatment label, we gain lucrative bowl tie-ins we might not have reached if we have a mediocre season (plus some cash), and we also have the conference prestige factor in recruitment.

Independent status was useful back in the day, but today...especially with the BCS system the way it is (conference tie-ins account for all the spots in the BCS bowls other than two "at-large bids" and the title game), it simply behooves us to finally make the jump to a conference.

 

[PADOMERNUT]

The points you raise above are all valid, but even still, i think joining a conference will make us a better program in the long run. I want to win. That's it. I don't care if we have our own tv contract. In fact, I think having one in some ways hurts us. Having announcers call our games that have jobs dependent on appeasing ND fans makes them less inclined to tell the harsh truth about our coaching during actual games. they go out of their way to ignore the bad and enhance the good.

Do you watch the games? Haden and Hammond go out of their way to make the OTHER team look like a bunch of All Americans. They are the complete opposite of ND homers, and if you knew anything about the deal, thats the way NBC wants it.

 

[PhilsRule]

I called all of us delusional. That includes me. There is a reason EVERYONE else (other than the academies) plays in a conference. Being able to gauge yourself against the same teams year after year makes you work harder and you get better. A conference forces you to play at least 3 to 4 consistently good teams a year. It also forces you to play road games against worthy opponents.

 

[PhilsRule]

Well, I've long since thought the Independent status Notre Dame's football team enjoys is a precarious one. One one hand, it's useful because it allows us to play as difficult a schedule as we want, which makes us look much better to pollsters when we win them all (or most of them). On the other hand, it's definitely an "all or nothing" issue because conferences have bowl tie-ins and revenue sharing. So, if the #5 team in the Big XII has a so-so year, they still enjoy the middle tier bowl their conference is tied into and get some portion of money from their power teams' big bowl appearances.

Personally, I think the time for Independents in college football is outdated and needs to pass. It looks bad for the BCS to have a "Notre Dame" clause since we're an Independent. Sure, it's there because traditionally no Independent plays as hard of a schedule as we do so the reward is waiting if we make it. But, it gives the ND haters ammo for the case that we're spoiled and coddled in the system.

Secondly, of late we have been easing back on the murderous scheduling (because a dose of reality has apparently started to sink in) so the need for a "take all comers" schedule isn't as high. I think we should either accept the standing invitation the Big Ten has always had for us (thereby always guaranteeing a Rose Bowl bid when we go undefeated) or join the Big East like our other sports teams.

Either way, it's more sound football business. Sure, we don't get the full $13 million payout from a BCS game all to ourselves, but we lose the special treatment label, we gain lucrative bowl tie-ins we might not have reached if we have a mediocre season (plus some cash), and we also have the conference prestige factor in recruitment.

Independent status was useful back in the day, but today...especially with the BCS system the way it is (conference tie-ins account for all the spots in the BCS bowls other than two "at-large bids" and the title game), it simply behooves us to finally make the jump to a conference.

Stated much better than I did. ty.

 

[leprechaun4life]

I think the Independent status is a non issue. ND doesn't play for conference championships and I don't think they ever should. In my opinion ND should be about National Championship or bust as we always have been. Notre Dame wouldn't be the same if we joined a conference. I don't see why people get so pissy about us not being in a conference, every conference has good teams and bad teams and ND plays both good teams and bad teams on their schedule

And don't ridicule NDs talent level. We have one of the most athletic teams in the country and some of the best players (Tate, Rudolph, Floyd, Teo, B. Smith, I don't need to continue). We just need someone to help those players get to the next level.

 

[PhilsRule]

Do you watch the games? Haden and Hammond go out of their way to make the OTHER team look like a bunch of All Americans. They are the complete opposite of ND homers, and if you knew anything about the deal, thats the way NBC wants it.

OK. You lose all credibility if you don't think NBC falls all over itself to be as pro-Irish as possible in 3 hours.

 

[schuec]

I think the Independent status is a non issue. In my opinion ND should be about National Championship or bust as we always have been. Notre Dame wouldn't be the same if we joined a conference.

I think there in lies the problem. National Championships every year isn't feasible like it was "in the old days." The national championship or bust mentality is part of the reason we are in the position we are in, and that position is that of disappointment.

 

[leprechaun4life]

I think there in lies the problem. National Championships every year isn't feasible like it was "in the old days." The national championship or bust mentality is part of the reason we are in the position we are in, and that position is that of disappointment.

By NC or bust it doesn't mean win one every year, it means compete year in and year out (Florida, Texas, USC). The reason we are in our present position has nothing to do with our lack of conference allegiances. We are in our situation because we are not consistently winning games. Joining a conference will not win us games, it just means if we don't win a NC we get a moral victory and have a chance for a conference championship

 

[jason_h537]

Another thread about joining a confereance. We play 2 traditional powerhouses every year in USC and Michigan. Plus BC, MSU, Purdue, Navy, Stanford, and Pitt for the forseeable future. How is that different from being in a conference. Is that a weaker slate than the Big 12, or Big 10, or Big East, or ACC.

This is another stupid thread about joining a conference from people who dont know shit about ND other than what they see on sportcenter. Someone close this please

 

[PhilsRule]

Another thread about joining a confereance. We play 2 traditional powerhouses every year in USC and Michigan. Plus BC, MSU, Purdue, Navy, Stanford, and Pitt for the forseeable future. How is that different from being in a conference. Is that a weaker slate than the Big 12, or Big 10, or Big East, or ACC.

This is another stupid thread about joining a conference from people who dont know shit about ND other than what they see on sportcenter. Someone close this please

LOL. Stanford and Navy are notable games now? Please.

You are as close minded and an arrogant as someone else I know who is about to be unemployed. Although, he won't need his unemployment checks.

 

[schuec]

Lol at the above post. Just because someone may not agree with 100 percent of what you say doesn't mean they " don't know shit about notre dame" Chill man, just some people have different points of view, it makes for good debates.

 

[NDMontana]

It is no secret that we as a fan base overrate the team every preseason. If I had a dollar for every post on this site about the BCS bowl we were going to go to an win - I'd be a very wealthy man.[/qupte]

The mass sports media was still talking BCS for Notre Dame two weeks ago and with five first round picks--Clausen, Floyd, Tate, Rudolph and Young (according to scouts)--on offense it doesn't seem unreasonable.

I believe we get conned into this thinking because of our non-affiliation with a conference. Essentially, it tricks us into thinking we are better than we are because of the competition we face.

What do you base that on? The quality of competition is very favorable to that of the SEC, Pac-10, Big XII. You play a few BCS quality teams (USC), a few bowl bound teams (Navy, Pitt, Stanford, Purdue (usually), Michigan State (usually) and Michigan. Then you have a few stinkers in there.

Imagine for a moment that we played in the Big 10, Big East, or SEC for the last 3 years. Plus maybe we throw in USC, Navy, and someone to trample (i.e. SDSU or Nevada).

See above but, in short, Florida is hardly in a dog fight against top ten teams every week. Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Vanderbilt, South Carolina....aren't really very good. Throw in their preseason schedule against mighty teams like Troy State and La. Tech and suddenly--an intelligent person--realizes that they aren't really running a gauntlet.

There is no way we would be better than a middling team in those conferences. We would have finished those seasons with 4 or 5 losses with our current talent, BUT we would better be able to gauge ourselves in order to get better moving forward.

You can't really be that stupid, can you?

 

[dskoo65]

There is no way we would be better than a middling team in those conferences. We would have finished those seasons with 4 or 5 losses with our current talent

this is correct, with the qualifier that only the current coach would lose 4-5 games in a top conference. there is plenty of talent at nd to do better than that with another coach. just look at the big 10, not one of the 2 better conferences to be sure:

struggled to beat mediocre teams in purdue and msu. could not beat an awful michigan team. add to that playing wisconsin, penn state, and ohio state. add to that that most conference teams schedule one top tier opponent out of conference. i easily see 4-5 losses there.

 

[jason_h537]

LOL. Stanford and Navy are notable games now? Please.

You are as close minded and an arrogant as someone else I know who is about to be unemployed. Although, he won't need his unemployment checks.

Listen those are not notable games those are YEARLY FUCKING GAMES, just like ant conference. Oklahoma plays Baylor, OSU, plays Minesota, USC plays WSU Florida plays Vanderbilt. Those are not notable games, but games that basically make up a conference schedule for us. Stop talking shit and listen to what people are saying instead of just name calling. Oh and for your stupid idea of keeping assistant coaches it happens more often than you think. How else can you explain Randy Hart staying at Washington for over 20 years

 

[NDMontana]

Listen dumb shit those are not notable games those are YEARLY FUCKING GAMES, just like ant conference. Oklahoma plays Baylor, OSU, plays Minesota, USC plays WSU Florida plays Vanderbilt. Those are not notable games, but games that basically make up a conference schedule for us. Stop talking shit and listen to what people are saying instead of just name calling. Oh and for your stupid idea of keeping assistant coaches it happens more often than you think. How else can you explain Randy Hart staying at Washington for over 20 years

The same way he explains everything else....he'll just keep on ranting like he doesn't believe. Facts don't stand his way.

 

[BGIF]

OK. You lose all credibility if you don't think NBC falls all over itself to be as pro-Irish as possible in 3 hours.

You just came off a ban from this site's admininistrator. Your first day back you got into various threads and post nonsense like the quote above.

You're not a moron, are you PhilsRule? Nor are you stupid? You just want to troll. You want to piss in the pot, insult, and incite fights.

Do it somewhere else.

You've got a permanent ban.

 

[BGIF]

This thread topic is one for discussion so it will remain open, if anyone has interest in discussing the pros and cons.

PhilsRule will not be rejoining it.

 

[ryno 24]

This whole thread is idiotic. Being an independent helps ND get what they want best. They have the best chance to win; Notre Dame Clause in the BCS. Also, it gives them the most exposure as a school as well as the best chance to get money. If we had a coach who could win the easy games, and maybe play Notre Dame football and win, we would be handed a BCS game this year which means 13 million dollars. By the way the 13 million dollars would easily pay off Weis' contract.

 

[NDMontana]

This thread topic is one for discussion so it will remain open, if anyone has interest in discussing the pros and cons.

PhilsRule will not be rejoining it.

A heartfelt thanks to BGIF from all of us! So long Phil.

 

[volray]

This whole thread is idiotic. Being an independent helps ND get what they want best. They have the best chance to win; Notre Dame Clause in the BCS. Also, it gives them the most exposure as a school as well as the best chance to get money. If we had a coach who could win the easy games, and maybe play Notre Dame football and win, we would be handed a BCS game this year which means 13 million dollars. By the way the 13 million dollars would easily pay off Weis' contract.

In a full disclosure, I am a huge college football fan that happens to have Tennessee as my favorite team and I am an alumni of Georgia Tech. That out of the way, I find it amazing that you Irish fans don't know the details of what goes on with your program. Notre Dame does not get $13.5 million for a BCS bowl, they get the $4.5 as if they were a second conference team in the system. Further, there is no longer an automatic berth if they are ahead of any other BCS conference champion. They, just like TCU and Boise (or any other non-BCS conference member, must be in the top 8 of the final BCS bowl to get an automatic invite.

Further, your NBC deal pales in contrast to most conference TV deals. Vandy, the worst program in the SEC, gets $11 million just from being in the SEC due to the new football deal with CBS and ESPN. NBC gets 6 or 7 games a year from ND, the SEC provides 96 games a year, not counting the SEC championship game.

It is my OPINION that ND not being in a conference hurts it in the long run. Yes, you play sometimes play a schedule equivalent to a conference schedule. 2007 was a ridiculous year. Playing Michigan, USC, Mich St, Purdue, Stanford every year is good. However, the SEC last year was 7-2 (or 6-2, I didn't take time to count) in bowl games. That includes games like Mississippi over Texas Tech, LSU over Ga Tech (embarrassing!), Vandy over BC, etc. If you forgive Alabama for not really wanting to be in New Orleans, it should have been only one loss.

Yes, Florida played FIU, Charleston, and Troy this year. But almost every conference game, especially those on the road, are tough. Notre Dame just doesn't see 8 games a year with the intensity of a conference game.

For now, I think it can be summed up by the response from the Navy coach after winning this year. Paraphrasing when asked why Navy didn't celebrate like they did in 2007, his said, "There is nothing special about beating Notre Dame, we expected to play well."

I think that Notre Dame doing well is good for college football just like it is good for baseball when the Yankees are doing well. In general, I think that there are only two types of college football fans, those that like Notre Dame and those whose second favorite opponent is whomever is playing Notre Dame.

Finally, I really, really, really hope that Notre Dame gets rid of Weiss, whom I don't think is a good college coach, and hires Charlie Strong. Florida would really miss him! You would have thought that Notre Dame would have learned the lesson about hiring from outside the college ranks after the experiment with the Moeller coach. And, after what we went through with Fulmer last year, indecision with the head coach can drastically impact a program.

Good luck in 2010!

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

... Notre Dame just doesn't see 8 games a year with the intensity of a conference game.

...

You're completely wrong.

 

[NDMontana]

The SEC contract is for all sports....basketball, football, etc. So ND not only gets their own network for football without fear of being pre-empted, they also get in on the Big East's ESPN basketball money.