Pat Forde Hits Nail On The Head

[SteelerNation]

Tim Brown

 

[Sam Crow]

Notre Dame Football Database

Here is a game by game account of the Weis era. In case you want to look.

Sorry, the link didn't work, but you can go there and search '05-'09 and see.

Pretty sad that since 2000 we've gone 70-49 thats a .588 win%. made me kinda sick.

 

[irishfan]

Tim Brown

praying that was a joke....

 

[NDisme]

Steeler my fellow muchacho, you have to be f**cking with me, Brown wasn't on the 88 team, c'mon man, get with the prgram!

Tim Brown

 

[peredonov]

It's wrong to compare Weis' record to Willingham's. An even cursory look at the circumstances will prove that out. It's tiresome to keep having to explain it 5 years after the fact...

The only comparison is that they have been disasters and both deserve to be fired. Ty after three years, Weis after 4 or 5. Forde tiptoes around the issue; that recruiting hype saved Weis and buried Willingham.

Looking forward to Gruden, Kelly, or a guy with outstanding head coaching experience. Ara is still alive...

 

[phork]

I suppose one loses the ability to do that after years and years of ESPN being completely subjective when it comes to Notre Dame. ND fans hold their team to a higher standard on and off the field. ESPN runs feel good stories about other schools like ND on Outside the Lines or on those two hour editions of Sports Centers with that one guy who has the sappy voice. Conversely, ESPN's coverage of ND is often done in a mocking way. When ND wins a big game, they devote two minutes of Game Day Final to it. When ND loses they run 45 minute stories. So instead of just reporting the facts or ever praising ND for their tradition, commitment to academics and overall excellence, they like to mock Notre Dame and its fanbase when the school struggles.

But they lionize USC and Florida. You know why they talk about Tim Tebow so much? It's because he's probably the only likeable player on Florida's roster and probably damn near the only literate one, too.

Maybe because ND has been so far from competing they have become a national punch line? 2mins compared to 45 minutes? Exaggerate much? How does one not mock this program? Lionize a USC and Florida team that consistently competes for National Titles? Say what you want about Tebow, but the guy is a player and is the heart of that team.

I think the first step for some of you is to realize that ND is not a national power anymore.

 

[Catsudon]

i guess it is no surprising that all the hit pieces come out after the navy game.

 

[phork]

i guess it is no surprising that all the hit pieces come out after the navy game.

ND has been getting sniped all year.

 

[weisbank4]

The Michigan loss was a way worse loss than Navy. You could tell ND was 3 TDs better than Michigan but that defense just let them hang around.

I believe Navy would wreck Michigan.

Everything is perspective and perception. I told my dad who went to the Mich game with me that UM was a big nothing and ND really blew that game.

 

[neags23]

The Michigan loss was a way worse loss than Navy. You could tell ND was 3 TDs better than Michigan but that defense just let them hang around.

I believe Navy would wreck Michigan.

Everything is perspective and perception. I told my dad who went to the Mich game with me that UM was a big nothing and ND really blew that game.

I completely agree. All of my friends have been saying, "Navy? Dude, what happened to your Irish? Navy? Really?"

But they're completely going on name recognition. This is not the same Navy team of 15 years ago. This Navy team is pretty damn good.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have won. I thought the team came out flat, had ridiculous mistakes, etc. We still should've won the game.

However, you can't just say, "Navy? What a joke!"

The UM loss was far worse than the Navy loss, IMO.

 

[weisbank4]

I completely agree. All of my friends have been saying, "Navy? Dude, what happened to your Irish? Navy? Really?"

But they're completely going on name recognition. This is not the same Navy team of 15 years ago. This Navy team is pretty damn good.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have won. I thought the team came out flat, had ridiculous mistakes, etc. We still should've won the game.

However, you can't just say, "Navy? What a joke!"

The UM loss was far worse than the Navy loss, IMO.

Right, Navy is actually a borderline ranked team. They almost won at OSU as well. Michigan, however, is a complete joke that got whalloped by IL and wont go to a bowl game this year.

Navy would probably be a upper tier big 10 team.

 

[NDMontana]

Maybe because ND has been so far from competing they have become a national punch line? 2mins compared to 45 minutes? Exaggerate much? How does one not mock this program? Lionize a USC and Florida team that consistently competes for National Titles? Say what you want about Tebow, but the guy is a player and is the heart of that team.

I think the first step for some of you is to realize that ND is not a national power anymore.

I'm talking about double standards. I think you missed that.

I don't care if you're anti-Weis, I make plenty of anti-Weis comments, but if you just don't like Notre Dame don't claim otherwise. How does one not mock this program? Well, if you're a fan than you've got the right to critique, be critical, of the team's performance. But to critique is not to mock. If you think the program is worth mocking, if you think that the pursuit of academic excellence and athletic excellence is too much to hope, well, than you're in the wrong place.

I promise you one thing: Notre Dame will fire coaches, Notre Dame's administration will expect greatness from the football program (because it's a cash cow). What they won't do is change their academic or character standards. And if that means mediocrity, and you can't stand it, then you'd best hitch your wagon to another train.

Here's the best example I can give you of the double standard at ESPN with relation to Notre Dame. Bobby Knight was throwing chairs, choking kids, etc. al. ESPN talked about that, but they also ran a puff piece with former players or friends (Coack K, Tony Larussa, Bill Parcells) talking about Bobby's heart, Bobby's graduation rate and his high character standards for his players. When do they ever run a piece about Notre Dame being a school that promotes the same? Do they ever talk about Charlie Weis's charitable work? When they run puff pieces about North Western and Stanfords graduation rates do they ever mention Notre Dame?

 

[kmoose]

When does one step back, even for a brief second, and realize the sniping by ESPN on ND is deserved? The whole May/Holtz thing is a joke on to itself, but really... Some good stats in there..

1. Why do you think it is ok for ESPN to take shots at ND, whenever they can?

2. No one is arguing the statistics he presents. What people are questioning are the conclusions that he is drawing from those statistics. So Weis has the same winning percentage as Willingham, what does that mean? If you have an axe to grind with ND, then maybe it means that Weis deserves to be fired. It might even mean that the University's perceived reluctance to do so is indicative of racist tendencies. Or............... it could mean that, despite the same winning percentage, that this team is in a better place than the team that Willingham was leading, at the time of his firing. Where Forde goes wrong, in my opinion, is that he tries to cover his opinion that Weis should be fired as some kind of natural logical progression, based on the winning percentage of the two coaches. Maybe that percentage wasn't enough, for Willingham, due to his rumored poor work ethic. It's quite possible that ND was not willing to keep him around because they felt that he wasn't working hard enough to turn things around. It's entirely possible that Weis' work ethic is what is keeping him around, right now. I don't know. But, unlike Pat Forde, I am willing to admit that I don't know. Mr. Forde would rather try to fool people into thinking that his opinion is correct, based on some facts that could be interpreted in a myriad of ways.

 

[phork]

I'm talking about double standards. I think you missed that.

I don't care if you're anti-Weis, I make plenty of anti-Weis comments, but if you just don't like Notre Dame don't claim otherwise. How does one not mock this program? Well, if you're a fan than you've got the right to critique, be critical, of the team's performance. But to critique is not to mock. If you think the program is worth mocking, if you think that the pursuit of academic excellence and athletic excellence is too much to hope, well, than you're in the wrong place.

I promise you one thing: Notre Dame will fire coaches, Notre Dame's administration will expect greatness from the football program (because it's a cash cow). What they won't do is change their academic or character standards. And if that means mediocrity, and you can't stand it, then you'd best hitch your wagon to another train.

Here's the best example I can give you of the double standard at ESPN with relation to Notre Dame. Bobby Knight was throwing chairs, choking kids, etc. al. ESPN talked about that, but they also ran a puff piece with former players or friends (Coack K, Tony Larussa, Bill Parcells) talking about Bobby's heart, Bobby's graduation rate and his high character standards for his players. When do they ever run a piece about Notre Dame being a school that promotes the same? Do they ever talk about Charlie Weis's charitable work? When they run puff pieces about North Western and Stanfords graduation rates do they ever mention Notre Dame?

Regardless of the extraneous stuff, espn is a sports network. I wouldn't turn on espn and expect feel good, non-sports stories. The mediocrity that is ND football is a sports story. And I never said I couldn't stand it. I merely stated that its time that some of you embrace the fact that ND is now a Mid-Major level program.

1. Why do you think it is ok for ESPN to take shots at ND, whenever they can?

2. No one is arguing the statistics he presents. What people are questioning are the conclusions that he is drawing from those statistics. So Weis has the same winning percentage as Willingham, what does that mean? If you have an axe to grind with ND, then maybe it means that Weis deserves to be fired. It might even mean that the University's perceived reluctance to do so is indicative of racist tendencies. Or............... it could mean that, despite the same winning percentage, that this team is in a better place than the team that Willingham was leading, at the time of his firing. Where Forde goes wrong, in my opinion, is that he tries to cover his opinion that Weis should be fired as some kind of natural logical progression, based on the winning percentage of the two coaches. Maybe that percentage wasn't enough, for Willingham, due to his rumored poor work ethic. It's quite possible that ND was not willing to keep him around because they felt that he wasn't working hard enough to turn things around. It's entirely possible that Weis' work ethic is what is keeping him around, right now. I don't know. But, unlike Pat Forde, I am willing to admit that I don't know. Mr. Forde would rather try to fool people into thinking that his opinion is correct, based on some facts that could be interpreted in a myriad of ways.

Sure this team is better than Willinghams era. But Charlie is not the guy to bring ND to that next step. How many more end of the year reviews do we have to anticipate before enough is enough? Its certainly been enough for me.

As for hating Weis or being anti-Weis, I am neither. I like the guy, I liked the hire and I liked that he was an alum. I liked the tradition he restored to the program. But I just don't think he is the guy to get ND back on top.

Right, Navy is actually a borderline ranked team. They almost won at OSU as well. Michigan, however, is a complete joke that got whalloped by IL and wont go to a bowl game this year.

Navy would probably be a upper tier big 10 team.

Please stop it. Stop fluffing Navy. I respect them, I respect their kids. They did it all right and they punched us right in the mouth. But this is a team that got shut down by Pitt, the same Pitt you all claim we are going to stomp this week. There is no way you should lose to Navy if you have any hope of challenging for a BCS birth or a NC.

So really I think it is time for people to rethink their expectations for this program. Are you happy with losing to USC every year? Are you going to be just as happy to lose to Michigan next year? And Navy again? I'm not.

 

[NDMontana]

Well, phork, ESPN runs feel good stories tied into sports all the time....this is a pretty elementary idea. They talk about the Stanford football team's graduation rate, talk about 10 year-olds with leukemia spending the day with their sports hero (ever seen the 10 week "This is My Wish" series they run in the summer?), they did a piece last night about soldiers on a military base golfing.

So the stories are tied into sports but they have a deeper meaning. You say get used to ND being a "mid-major" and a mediocre football team but you don't seem to have inculcated yourself with that notion; if you had you wouldn't say the things that you do.

 

[phork]

Well, phork, ESPN runs feel good stories tied into sports all the time....this is a pretty elementary idea. They talk about the Stanford football team's graduation rate, talk about 10 year-olds with leukemia spending the day with their sports hero (ever seen the 10 week "This is My Wish" series they run in the summer?), they did a piece last night about soldiers on a military base golfing.

So the stories are tied into sports but they have a deeper meaning. You say get used to ND being a "mid-major" and a mediocre football team but you don't seem to have inculcated yourself with that notion; if you had you wouldn't say the things that you do.

No, I am not happy with it, thus my feelings that, thats where Charlie has firmly planted us.

 

[tankjeep]

Please stop it. Stop fluffing Navy. I respect them, I respect their kids. They did it all right and they punched us right in the mouth. But this is a team that got shut down by Pitt, the same Pitt you all claim we are going to stomp this week. There is no way you should lose to Navy if you have any hope of challenging for a BCS birth or a NC.

we don't need to fluff navy. they're a good football team and their record speaks for itself. your opinion isn't going to change that fact.

if anything, don't put down a very good pitt team based on other people's opinions. and i didn't realize that losing 27-14 is being shutdown. subdued maybe, but not shut down.

you're probably going to get your wish, but i really think that cw has this program going in the right direction. when cw gets fired, i really think it's going to set us back another 5 years. we need to move forward and let weis prove himself next season. i'll give him that much if the talent we have now, stays.

 

[weisbank4]

im not justfying the Navy loss, im just wondering why its so shocking to lose to them but the UM loss was a footnote and UM hasnt beat anybody in the big 10 but Indiana and even that came down to a bad call.

 

[phork]

we don't need to fluff navy. they're a good football team and their record speaks for itself. your opinion isn't going to change that fact.

if anything, don't put down a very good pitt team based on other people's opinions. and i didn't realize that losing 27-14 is being shutdown. subdued maybe, but not shut down.

you're probably going to get your wish, but i really think that cw has this program going in the right direction. when cw gets fired, i really think it's going to set us back another 5 years. we need to move forward and let weis prove himself next season. i'll give him that much if the talent we have now, stays.

Records are a funny thing.

I'm not putting down Pitt. I am saying people around here seem to think this is going to be a walk in the park. Pitt held Navy to 126 yards rushing. Almost a THIRD of what ND did. Considering their average? That is what being shutdown is.

Its not my wish. And i never said ND wasn't headed in the right direction, but I think Charlie has hit his ceiling. He doesn't have what it takes to get ND to that next level. 5 years? Don't be so dramatic. Charlie proved you could recruit at ND and be successful, whats to say some other coach can't do the same? I realize that some of you people think that hanging over the abyss is a frightening prospect. Let go, you might find yourself in a better position.

 

[tankjeep]

Records are a funny thing.

I'm not putting down Pitt. I am saying people around here seem to think this is going to be a walk in the park. Pitt held Navy to 126 yards rushing. Almost a THIRD of what ND did. Considering their average? That is what being shutdown is.

Its not my wish. And i never said ND wasn't headed in the right direction, but I think Charlie has hit his ceiling. He doesn't have what it takes to get ND to that next level. 5 years? Don't be so dramatic. Charlie proved you could recruit at ND and be successful, whats to say some other coach can't do the same? I realize that some of you people think that hanging over the abyss is a frightening prospect. Let go, you might find yourself in a better position.

i guess that's my fear, i don't want to go thru another bob davie or ty willingham, especially back to back. cw may have reached his ceiling, but i still feel that he deserves at the very least one more year.

 

[phork]

i guess that's my fear, i don't want to go thru another bob davie or ty willingham, especially back to back. cw may have reached his ceiling, but i still feel that he deserves at the very least one more year.

Or you could catch lightning in a bottle. 50-50 either way.

 

[tankjeep]

Or you could catch lightning in a bottle. 50-50 either way.

catching lightening in a bottle and saying fifty/fifty....isn't that kind of an oxymoron...haha.

who knows, i guess my fears far outweigh my willingness to take a chance. if we did go with a new coach, i don't know who is better between gruden and kelly.

i guess kelly becuz of his college coaching experience (which in my opinion can make a big difference).

 

[alleycat9]

navy lost to temple who lost to villanova.
navy beat smu by 3 the same smu that lost to washington state

dont give me that navy is a good team bull.

the one thing about ty was that we did not start scheduling patsy programs like nevada while ty willingham was here.

i am so sick and tired of the pussy thought process in the athletic department, coaches and what appears to now be the fans. i am thoroughly disgusted.

 

[JefMaj]

Do you come with one of those long wild troll hair styles - is it a color?

 

[NDMontana]

we don't need to fluff navy. they're a good football team and their record speaks for itself. your opinion isn't going to change that fact.

if anything, don't put down a very good pitt team based on other people's opinions. and i didn't realize that losing 27-14 is being shutdown. subdued maybe, but not shut down.

you're probably going to get your wish, but i really think that cw has this program going in the right direction. when cw gets fired, i really think it's going to set us back another 5 years. we need to move forward and let weis prove himself next season. i'll give him that much if the talent we have now, stays.

Navy lost to Temple. Their victories are over Air Force, Rice, SMU, Lousiana Tech, Wake and ND. That's not a very impressive lineup.

 

[jason_h537]

Dont start connecting dor because that is stupid logic. Purdue beat OSU. Wasjington beat USC. Stanford beat Oregon. NC State beat Pitt. BC beat NC State. and so on and so on and so on

 

[NDMontana]

Dont start connecting dor because that is stupid logic. Purdue beat OSU. Wasjington beat USC. Stanford beat Oregon. NC State beat Pitt. BC beat NC State. and so on and so on and so on

Were you talking to me?

 

[jason_h537]

Were you talking to me?

Yes and alleycat and phor and all others who bring this up

 

[irishfan]

Yes and alleycat and phor and all others who bring this up

Wait, you mean because we beat UCLA in 2006 and Stanford in 2007 and Washington in 2009 that we weren't a better team than USC those years?

 

[kmoose]

navy lost to temple who lost to villanova.
navy beat smu by 3 the same smu that lost to washington state

dont give me that navy is a good team bull.

the one thing about ty was that we did not start scheduling patsy programs like nevada while ty willingham was here.

i am so sick and tired of the pussy thought process in the athletic department, coaches and what appears to now be the fans. i am thoroughly disgusted.

USC lost to Washington, who lost to ND, who lost to Navy. Don't give me that USC is a good team bull.