REMINDER: The only reason you are suprised by the loss ...

[NDMontana]

Actually he called 2 runs on the second to last posession. Allen ran for 14 yards, and then limped off the field. Michigan then decided to load the box, and Hughes ran for no gain on the 2nd play

Touche.

Bottom line is that he needed to run, not for a first down, but to force Michigan to use their timeouts.

 

[phgreek]

Not sure where that is coming from, but keep in mind the first pass is a judgement call between clausen and tate. If the corner is lined up in press coverage like he was, then it was a fade. If the corner is backed up, its a short pass. So its not like Weis just said go deep. There was strategy there. And the 2nd pass was a simple 10 yard out pattern, and was WIDE OPEN. Shaq Evans acted like he didnt expect the ball to be thrown to him, which a WR should never do. I have to think if that is Michael Floyd we get a first down, and probably win the game.

yea...ok long ball terrets is a little exagerated...my poor attempt at humor...my real point is, why in the hell was throwing an option at all? Can't tell me we don't have a package for this situation that takes the air out of the ball...where was it? like I said...Monday morning quarterbacking on my part...just think all the signs were present to say we can get "it" done running...and "it", given our D's performance, was to keep the ball out of Forcier's hands...and that is a win for us...

one guy's opinion...

 

[jason_h537]

yea...ok long ball terrets is a little exagerated...my poor attempt at humor...my real point is, why in the hell was throwing an option at all? Can't tell me we don't have a package for this situation that takes the air out of the ball...where was it? like I said...Monday morning quarterbacking on my part...just think all the signs were present to say we can get "it" done running...and "it", given our D's performance, was to keep the ball out of Forcier's hands...and that is a win for us...

one guy's opinion...

You say keep the ball out of Forciers hands and that is what Weis was trying to do, get a first down and keep the ball. In an earlier post you say we should have knocked Forcier on his ass. Our defense did sack him and pressured him often. You guys are upset that we let a freshman QB beat us but he did not play like a freshman, He got sacked, pressured, threw a pick, and had to come from behind twice. Another freshamn would have folded not him, give the other team credit.

 

[phork]

I give Forcier all the credit in the world. They guy can play. Lets say Charlie hits one of those passes... 1st and 10 and they still have 2 timeouts to get rid of.. Are you still going to throw on every down? Everyone is assuming its game if he nails one of those passes and makes a first down, still 2 TOs to deal with.

 

[PADOMERNUT]

Touche.

Bottom line is that he needed to run, not for a first down, but to force Michigan to use their timeouts.

I respectfully disagree. I think we needed to play to our strength to try to get a first down and that is passing. But look, you arent going to convince me and I am not going to convince you.

We lost, it sucks, lets move on and kick the shit out of sparty

 

[midwestguy]

You're wrong there Montana. This midwestguy had some insane logic, got smacked down by all when the play completely proved him wrong. Then suddenly, ND loses and NOW he comes back and acts the way he does. You came back LAST WEEK, when football started. He didn't. He's written some truly insane stuff and pissed a lot of people off in the process.

There's a lot of people here that state their opinions against the grain. NDOM and Phork, for example. But they do it the right way. He gets personal. Just like he did in the post above.

'Midwestguy' is the same guy who said this following gem:


That was a gem. Thanks for the inside info. I'm glad someone thought that the admin would pick a random number that the Irish could lose by. Made the site look absolutely foolish.

He also started this thread, about a certain sophomore QB:



Ummm, is it still official that he's not good? Because if he's not good, the nobody is. (here comes the Hawaii/nevada/michigan sucks argument). See, labeling a sophomore behind a crappy line and no running game 'officially not good' is shortsighted and ignorant, especially coming from someone who brags that he knows the game. JC will be breaking all ND passing records this year assuming he stays healthy. BUt because the defense blew it after he brought them back from 11 down in the 4th, he'll still not be good. With some people, you can never win. (You're one of them)

How bout these goodies from you:

Listen, PAL, shove it up your hole. (There's lots of things like that written by him.)

But my absolute favorite was the time we got into an argument over who is better, Jimmy Clausen or Cody Hawkins. THAT IS NOT A MISPRINT. He truly believed that Cody Hawkins was on par with Jimmy Clausen, that they were both mediocre. All he looked at were the stats, and would consider nothing else. I tried to tell him how good JC would be (look it up), but he wasn't having it. Since you love stats so much, here you go:

Cody Hawkins through 2 games against horrible teams:
5 TD's, 4 INT's, 52% completion rating (!!!!!), 580 yards, playing for daddy.

Jimmy through 2 games against a decent team (but a bad pass defense) and a very good team on the road?
7 TD's, ZERO INTs, 67% completion rating, 650 yds, 44 less attempts than Cody.

Still want to make that argument? Am I still an 'idiot' and a 'JC apologist'?

If nothing has changed, why weren't you here after the win last week? Same coach, same system, same players. Now that you lost you get some tequila in you and you get brave enough to come back? You bring zero credibility when you do that, because all you want to do is hate. You love to be negative.

Listen, if you continue to get personal with posters, you won't be around much longer. It's that simple. We were absolutely fine without you. State your opinion and move on. We know you'll be back only when they lose, so we'll be expecting you.

At least be honest dude. This was my original post about Cody Hawkins:

"Puhlease. Oh, and by the way. Cody Hawkins, who is about as mediocre as you can get, was 20-29 with 4 TDs yesterday. That gives him 15 TDs and 7 INTs for the year - which is a better ratio than your boy Clausen. And those numbers got Cody benched.

So call me a dork all you want. The numbers don't lie. Also, Cody's medicore numbers came against teams like Texas, West Virginia, Kansas, & Florida State. Far superior teams than Clausen has faced."

I didn't say Hawkins was better. LEARN TO READ. I said he was MEDIOCRE and that Clausen's numbers were worse at the time. Which they were.

Clausen has played well exactly 3 games in a row against 3 defenses which were not considered good. Let's see how he does against USC, Pitt, and even Connecticut.

 

[NDinL.A.]

At least be honest dude. This was my original post about Cody Hawkins:

"Puhlease. Oh, and by the way. Cody Hawkins, who is about as mediocre as you can get, was 20-29 with 4 TDs yesterday. That gives him 15 TDs and 7 INTs for the year - which is a better ratio than your boy Clausen. And those numbers got Cody benched.

So call me a dork all you want. The numbers don't lie. Also, Cody's medicore numbers came against teams like Texas, West Virginia, Kansas, & Florida State. Far superior teams than Clausen has faced."

I didn't say Hawkins was better. LEARN TO READ. I said he was MEDIOCRE and that Clausen's numbers were worse at the time. Which they were.

Clausen has played well exactly 3 games in a row against 3 defenses which were not considered good. Let's see how he does against USC, Pitt, and even Connecticut.

OK, here's what you said:

No, feel free to compare him to the very average Cody Hawkins who has better numbers.

So I went on to do just that. I told you about how good he would be, and we were just scratching the surface with him. I told you how great he'd be with a good O-Line and a decent running game. And you said I was an idiot and a JC apologist. My question is, do you still stand by your remarks? Because just about everyone in the country (minus people who simply hate ND) can see how good this kid already is, possibly great. Everyone but you. Many of us saw it here, told you so, and you started multiple threads telling us how wrong and foolish we all were. SO, why don't you start multiple threads about yourself and how foolish and wrong you were?

But hey, since you want to talk about quotes, here are some of your beauties:

He (Jimmy Clausen) isn't good and has given very few signs that he can be good.

Jimmy Clausen. King of the Chuck it up and pray.

20 TDS 17 INTs against an easy schedule thus far. I expect it to get worse shortly.

(He then went out and threw 12 TD's and 0 INT's in his next 3 games. Nice call.)

Let's just say I went to law school with someone who is definitely in the know. The good thing about a post like mine is that we'll all know by Monday if it was true or not.

(It wasn't. CW wasn't fired.)

I have given this a lot of thought. We will obviously get a better Bowl than we deserve due to our history and our fan base. Which means, we will face a better opponent than we are capable of beating.

I say stay home and save us the embarrasment of an a$$ kicking.

(You were talking about the Hawaii Bowl. Boy what an ass kicking! BTW, you didn't come back until after our first loss of the season Saturday.)

****Bottom line dude, is that you made a fool out of yourself after your failed inside sources, made worse only by saying how badly we were going to get killed if we took a bowl game. And then you vanished, only to come back AFTER WE LOST. Not after we beat Nevada, but after lost. Like a punk lying in the weeds. Where were you before then? You couldn't own up to your own shit talking then, and you can't own up to it now.

Dude, you're nothing but a Mark May, plain and simple. I just scanned through a bunch of your posts, and the overwhelming majority are negative, even when talking politics. It must suck to wake up with a stick up your ass. Lighten the f*** up will you? Nobody's happy after a loss, but you're NEVER happy. We were fine without you. Go to NDNation, where they LOVE your types.

(And for the record, again, I'm not saying anything against stating your opinion that goes against the grain. Lots of posters do that, and we discuss. This guy goes way over the line...)

 

[Riddickulous]

I've seen worse.

There have been topics on Rivals boards comparing Clausen and Christian Ponder, as well as Clausen and Robert Marve.

But seriously, I sowed the seeds of negativity in this board Saturday night, hoed them up and apologized for them Sunday, and then you've come on here and tried to plant them again. Get out, homeboy.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

It must suck to wake up with a stick up your ass....)

Yeah. It sucks to wake up with a stick in your ass. You wake up thinking "Hey, why is this stick up my ass?" Tends to start the day on a weird note.

With a stick up your ass.

 

[Riddickulous]

Yeah. It sucks to wake up with a stick in your ass. You wake up thinking "Hey, why is this stick up my ass?" Tends to start the day on a weird note.

With a stick up your ass.

FRIGGEN LOL.

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

NDinL.A. - just read your post. I feel like I should go smoke a cigarette. That was AWESOME! I aspire to write posts once in a blue moon like you write on a regular basis.

Did you ever see Tommy Morrison get his ass kicked by...well, everybody? Midwestguy is the Tommy Morrison of IE. While you, NDinL.A., you are more like Sugar Ray Leonard. Just so much fun to watch and so artistic when you are kicking the living crap out of someone.

Ahhhhhh, I can go to sleep happy now.

 

[phgreek]

You say keep the ball out of Forciers hands and that is what Weis was trying to do, get a first down and keep the ball. In an earlier post you say we should have knocked Forcier on his ass. Our defense did sack him and pressured him often. You guys are upset that we let a freshman QB beat us but he did not play like a freshman, He got sacked, pressured, threw a pick, and had to come from behind twice. Another freshamn would have folded not him, give the other team credit.

...implied in my statement is a requirement for some level of situational awareness and weighing options...Of course Charlie wanted the passes to be completed...of course he thought it would work...of course he intended to keep the ball out of Forcier's hands...but ...which road leads to a more likely W, if chosen approach FAILS? And yes you get to think like that when you are Winning with 2 minutes left...with the ball. ...Sam young has moved mountains, If you run twice behind Sam...you burn time and timeouts...result...you get a first down, or Forcier is in an absolute must throw situation with no timeouts, which means we take away the run/scramble dimension to a large degree...he becomes much more one dimensional...now...do we stop the insane blitzing and go nickel and play straight up...don't know, but I hope so...no accounting for the Dismal kick...not holding that against CW...how could he know...but, either way, knowing the D, and leaving timeouts and time is just a bad call...sorry I don't agree that pass and pass were the right moves...NEVER WILL simply based on comparison of the respective downsides of the two aproaches...Pretty sure the majority of coaches watching that game feel the same way.

And hell yes knock him on his ass...yea we got there, we chased him around...some...but you can't seriously be saying we rocked this kid...he wasn't hurt/rattled/intimidated...I am talking about a calculated campaign early in the game to absolutely ring his bell ala BYU and Sam Bradford...BYU had reads and they blitzed based on opportunity, and laid MONSTER shots on Bradford...I get the difference in the QB styles...but I also know you can blow someone up very badly (even a heisman trophy winner) if that IS your scheme regardless if your opponents are running dickrod's offense or stupid's offense. You can argue that this is some whiz kid...but sometime in the future someone will absolutely Rock him, they will have schemed to get the chance to do so, they will have done it early, and he'll be pedestrian the rest of the game...should have been us. Regardless of what our intent was we did NOT rock this kid. Not even a little...

INDEED, I'm just mad because a freshman looks like an All American and beat us...

Let me leave you with this...and I've said it before...how do you suppose the likes of Zorich, Stamms, Stonebraker, Alm, etc. would react to hearing folks say that a freshman QB in his second game, under a second year coach dogged our asses....bbbbut he didn't play like a freshman...

 

[jason_h537]

...implied in my statement is a requirement for some level of situational awareness and weighing options...Of course Charlie wanted the passes to be completed...of course he thought it would work...of course he intended to keep the ball out of Forcier's hands...but ...which road leads to a more likely W, if chosen approach FAILS? And yes you get to think like that when you are Winning with 2 minutes left...with the ball. ...Sam young has moved mountains, If you run twice behind Sam...you burn time and timeouts...result...you get a first down, or Forcier is in an absolute must throw situation with no timeouts, which means we take away the run/scramble dimension to a large degree...he becomes much more one dimensional...now...do we stop the insane blitzing and go nickel and play straight up...don't know, but I hope so...no accounting for the Dismal kick...not holding that against CW...how could he know...but, either way, knowing the D, and leaving timeouts and time is just a bad call...sorry I don't agree that pass and pass were the right moves...NEVER WILL simply based on comparison of the respective downsides of the two aproaches...Pretty sure the majority of coaches watching that game feel the same way.

Maybe i am reading this wrong so you might have to correct me. So you think we should have ran the ball twice and play prevent defense?

Thats playing to win?

You also assume like the team was not trying to knock Forcier on his ass. Were we playing two hand touch when we got to him? or did we let him scramble away?

 

[jason_h537]

This is my issue

Do i think that this was the best decision? No

Would i have liked to see us run the ball at least one more time? yes

Am i upset with the call or di i think it was a stupid decision by Weis? No

Do i think that the decision not to run cost us the game? No

When you take into consideration that Armando Allen was out, Gray had a big fumble that lead to a Michigan TD and Hughes got stuffed on first down. The defense was stacking against the run. Our o-line was getting flagged for holding all day. Our Passing game was carving up Michigans secondary, and our defense was struggling against the spread. No i do not think it was a stupid decision to throw it. In fact i kind of like the balls it took to try something like that.

I know guys are upset and think that this was beyond stupid but i am not one. I think running it twice, punting and playing prevent is pussy. If Armando was available i might agree with you but he wasnt. and i can live with the call.

When taken in with the entire game, this is not what cost us the win. There was so much more in the game we could have done to pull it out that it should not have come down to this.

 

[phgreek]

Maybe i am reading this wrong so you might have to correct me. So you think we should have ran the ball twice and play prevent defense?

Thats playing to win??

yup...If it leads to a W thats playing to win...not sure I agree that running Nickel is "prevent"...but no matter...also, not sure conceptually making a determination that passing is playing to win and running isn't...again, if you get behind Sam Young, I believe the chances were pretty good to get a first down...even with the box loaded...maybe I'm mixing games up, but didn't we have a short yardage TD run? Wasn't the box loaded (Goaline D)...it was a good chunk of yards behind who? That said, the down side to running in this situation was also less...clear choice for me...but then again I don't make 7 figures a year to do this stuff...but I breathe, know a little ball, and thats my opinion....was that a spin of "I think therefore I am"...naa not without ball...anyway I digress...

You also assume like the team was not trying to knock Forcier on his ass. Were we playing two hand touch when we got to him? or did we let him scramble away?

nope...not what I said...it was apparent we did not make that a schematic priority, and our guys still do not rock people...I'll give them some credit...they had some hits in the NV game...but nothing I'd call a de-cleater...nothing that sets a tone. To me it would have been OK in the first or second posession to tell Manti or one of the Smiths he had no other assignment but to ring Forcier's bell every play...line him up and knock 'em out...flag is ok...its kinda like Clemmons running one under your chin, or drilling you in the ribs...kinda gets you out of your comfort zone, messes with your head... sets the tone, etc. There was a standard at ND that included this mentality at one time...need it back. The two hand touch comment was hilarious though...and now that you mention it...at times it did look like that when we were chasing Forcier around...

 

[phgreek]

When taken in with the entire game, this is not what cost us the win. There was so much more in the game we could have done to pull it out that it should not have come down to this.

...I agree with that part...I'm harping on Charlie's decision because it was pretty close in proximity to the end of the game...Also bangin' on the D pretty hard...well because they were very bad at times, and I think we could blitz a little less...

But...refs jobbed us here and there, we jobbed ourselves here and there with penalties drops and fumble...any one of these may also be the difference in the game...Many facets to this loss...as there are with any loss...

We are approacing mid-week, so now I gotta dry my tears and go find the dude's post that went all positive, and soak that in a little, and get ready for Sparty...

 

[laservet]

When you take into consideration that Armando Allen was out, Gray had a big fumble that lead to a Michigan TD and Hughes got stuffed on first down. The defense was stacking against the run. Our o-line was getting flagged for holding all day. Our Passing game was carving up Michigans secondary, and our defense was struggling against the spread. No i do not think it was a stupid decision to throw it. In fact i kind of like the balls it took to try something like that.

Add to that the fact that they were torching the UM pass defenders all game. A 10 yard out for what I feel is the best passing team in the country is a high yield play. It failed because of poor execution, but poor execution would doom a running play as well.

Conservative calls aren't a lock to be successful, just ask Jim Tressel. ND played well, lost a close game to an up and coming team. This week is the real test of a coach's skill. ND can go on to have a fantastic season or they could crumble, all depends on how he brings the team through the week.

I bet ND killls MSU.

 

[laservet]

To me it would have been OK in the first or second posession to tell Manti or one of the Smiths he had no other assignment but to ring Forcier's bell every play...line him up and knock 'em out...flag is ok.

And if they late hit, cheap shot JC in return that would be OK with you? If you can't beat 'em, take 'em out with a bush league play?

 

[phgreek]

And if they late hit, cheap shot JC in return that would be OK with you? If you can't beat 'em, take 'em out with a bush league play?

You have got to be kidding me right...Did you see the '07 Season...So no one looked at Jimmy and tried to send a message...how many times did folks line up with the specific goal to punch him in the mouth, and get him rattled...granted it was pretty easy with our O-line, but Geez...come on! If you are worried about Jimmy, then call it pay back since he was sacked more than any 3 D1 QBS combined...Unbelievable!

 

[laservet]

You have got to be kidding me right...Did you see the '07 Season...So no one looked at Jimmy and tried to send a message...how many times did folks line up with the specific goal to punch him in the mouth, and get him rattled...granted it was pretty easy with our O-line, but Geez...come on! If you are worried about Jimmy, then call it pay back since he was sacked more than any 3 D1 QBS combined...Unbelievable!

There's an obvious difference between a sack and what you are calling for, deliberate late hits to injure a player. Unsportsmanlike play like you recommend is what I'd expect from the old Miami; it's not what ND is all about. That's all I'm saying. Everyone sacked JC in 07 thanks to a sieve of an offensive line. None this year so far, IIRC. Don't you want to beat the opponent at their best?

In case you didn't notice, ND blitzed Forcier like crazy. Their game plan was to rattle him. The difference between that and the 07n game is that his offensive line did a good job and he was too composed and elusive.

 

[phgreek]

There's an obvious difference between a sack and what you are calling for, deliberate late hits to injure a player. Unsportsmanlike play like you recommend is what I'd expect from the old Miami; it's not what ND is all about. That's all I'm saying. Everyone sacked JC in 07 thanks to a sieve of an offensive line. None this year so far, IIRC. Don't you want to beat the opponent at their best?

In case you didn't notice, ND blitzed Forcier like crazy. Their game plan was to rattle him. The difference between that and the 07n game is that his offensive line did a good job and he was too composed and elusive.

...okay laservet, I feel like I'm getting lectured by my dad...

I don't recall saying to kneecap anyone, or even saying hit'em late...now late is a judgement call, and I'm sure our definitions of late are a tad different...however...

My point is we did not scheme to get any wide open shots...we should have done that early to set a tone...and then a couple times throughout. Normally, doing so is dangerous because it commits alot of defenders to that one endeavor...but like we could have given up any more big plays than the scheme we did use.

By scheming I mean an effort to get a guy a naked shot by overloading or blitzing behind a stunt...didn't see any of that...what I saw or did indeed "noticed" the majorty of the time was pressure designed to hurry or contain...not to abuse/rattle/rock, etc. Getting a full steam clean hit on Forcier was not in this scheme. Sure, we'd take it if the O blew an assignment...but it wasn't a priority.

By getting a guy a naked/clean shot I mean we give him no other responsibility but to line up and T off on the QB...now come on, by saying a flag is ok, I'm not saying hit the QB after the whistle or even long after he gets rid of the ball, or goes down...what I'm saying is you need to tell a kid its ok to get flagged because late hits/unneccessary roughness are judgement calls that go against you at MI...you don't tell them that so they cheap shot...but rather so they don't hesitate. Kids take flags hard...if you want a heat seeking missile, you need to relieve him of any consequences proactively...and there will be plays that are on the margin of late...but not cheap. But the message does indeed get sent and received...Someone will do it to Forcier this year...and he'll be a mere mortal...just watch.

...was BYU "Cheap" when they wiped out Bradford?...I thought some of the Naked shots their backer got on him were on the margin of late...but clean, and thats exactly what I'm talking about! And it was clear BYU schemed to get that backer naked shots at Bradford.

If after that explanation you still think I'm cheap...I'm Cheap...I'm proud! And my wife keeps sayin I'm easy...