Players That Make You Wince

[NDinL.A.]

so we only say positive things because we don't want to remember the bad times? what are we, 5 yrs old?

if a player sucks, and somebody wants to talk about it, they should be able to.

i doubt some recruit is going to let some random anonymous message board community's comments, weight into their college decision.

Here's another example of a recruit being turned off by fans, per ESPN:

Mega-recruit Joe McKnight has said that he chose to play football at USC in part because LSU fans turned him off with their obsessive cyberstalking.

It happens, recruits, family members, coaches, etc, they read these types of boards, esp the free ones, whether you want to admit it or not...

 

[tannerpw3]

Did someone really list Abiamiri and Armando as players that make him wince?

Abiamiri wasn't a star at ND but he was a good player. And Armando has been a slight disappointment, but considering the O-line he's had to run behind, I think anyone would be a disappointment. Fact is, we had four runners get carries last year, and he was the best of them. So you might as well list the other three, too.


edit
NDinLA, that's all fine and good for recruits, but the players up for discussion are either already playing at ND, or are former players. Now I agree the criticism of current players should be as fair as possible (ie, no name-calling, no "god does HE suck!"), but really, no player is going to transfer from the team because people online are bashing him. And no recruit is going to see fans online bashing current players and decide to not go to the school because of it. They look for their own names and that's it.

 

[Brown]

Here's another example of a recruit being turned off by fans, per ESPN:



It happens, recruits, family members, coaches, etc, they read these types of boards, esp the free ones, whether you want to admit it or not...

I don't want an athlete at ND (regardless of talent), that will be so turned off by the fans comments towards current or ex players, that it forces them into choosing another school.

If an athlete is that sensitive to criticism, they're likely choosing the wrong activity (potential career), to occupy their time with.

 

[NDinL.A.]

I don't want an athlete at ND (regardless of talent), that will be so turned off by the fans comments towards current or ex players, that it forces them into choosing another school.

If an athlete is that sensitive to criticism, they're likely choosing the wrong activity (potential career), to occupy their time with.

Well, when Joe McKnight was running past our players last year while our defenders looked like they were planted in cement, I don't think anybody was thinking he chose the wrong activity (and I'm no fan of his, but I think it's safe to say he chose the right activity.

Tanner: I think we all rip current players when we are watching the games, it's human nature. Nobody screamed at Zibby more than I did, believe me. And I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about former players we couldn't stand. But personally, I'm into the next season, and I'm focused on positive thoughts on the players we have now. It should be a great season after 2 miserable years. I have no interest in bringing up guys that pissed us off, b/c for me it does no good right now. Other want to do it, have at it. I don't like it for the site, but hey, this is a site about ND football, so have at it...

 

[IrishAlum1997]

I will refrain from names, but anyone involved in extra points and field goals in 94-95. Even extra points were an adventure.

 

[tannerpw3]

I think we could list kickers with very few exceptions. It's been a rough couple of decades for Irish kicking. Or maybe it just feels that way. Did like Nick Setta, though.

 

[tgolden]

yea, blame it on the players for recruiting experts overhyping them.... obviously all their fault and they should be hated (by no actions of their own, just by playing as well as they could in high school) for ever daring to make a bunch of internet recruiting followers think they were going to be the second coming of rocket ismail or ross browner or joe montana.

Rhema McKnight, 2nd most receptions in Notre Dame history, made more than his share of phenomenal catches, tied Samardjiza's single season TD record even though nobody noticed or cared. making plays even before the Charlie Weis offense came along. Yea, he was just horrible. why did he ever get to play?

Ambrose Wooden, good enough to start multiple seasons at Notre Dame when we were playing at a pretty high level... and made some game saving plays with his hustle (UM 05 comes to mind... and if the ball had just bounced in bounds vs USC, he's be remembered for chasing down Jarrett on 4th and 9 and not letting him score). just awful.

Ditto for Terrail Lambert, and just add in his heroics vs MSU for extras. as well as a handful of other big INTs and recovered fumbles he had.

Preston Jackson, good enough to start for ND, seemed to get pass interference calls against him more than most, but it seemed like half of those were bogus calls (Pitt 04 comes to mind). a guy who never lacked enthusiasm...

Holliday, a great team player who made the most of his situation. but you must be right, obviously just a horrible player, especially considering he made it in the NFL as a wide receiver despite only playing it for about a year in college. I know everyone on this board can say that.

DJ Fitzpatrick, a walk on who stepped in as well as he could when Setta got hurt. made some pretty big kicks in his career, missed some too. but he was the best we had to work with and he did the best he could with it.

Justin Brown, a guy who worked his butt off for 5 years to get up to the size of a college dlineman and learn the technique after only playing organized football for 2 years in high school, and who added a lot of depth and experience his last year here on a depleted and small dline. maybe you wished he never came, I was glad to have him the last 2 years.

DJ Hord, biggest recruit of his class, but so what. he didn't ask for that. was showing potential until he tears his achilles, plenty guys never get over that, you can lose your speed forever with that. still cares enough about ND to make sure he gets his degree even though he transfers for football.

Schwapp, stepped in as a true freshman after RPN's problems. did his best. came back from an ACL injury. improved as a senior enough to sign with the cowboys...

Kamara, Allen, Aldridge (playing through some bad injuries), Walker (obviously a mental problem cause he can kick just fine, oh and he still beat out burkhart), Young, Parris, careers aren't over yet. same for John Ryan who has also had more than his share of injuries.

you guys realize that with ND's privacy policy, half the time guys get hurt either in season or end up having surgeries on pretty serious things off season and the average fan never even hears about it cause the guy just plays through it? or they assume someone just passed them up on the depth chart cause they were no good when in reality they had surgery? These guys, past and present, put in way, way too much work representing Notre Dame 12 months a year to have this kind of thread going in the offseason. I'm not a fan of bashing a player on message boards during the season even after making a specific, potentially game costing mistake. but to make a thread in the offseason to specifically talk about which past and present ND players you didn't like or were "overhyped" or were terrible? come on now... sure, you have the right to do it, but that doesn't make it right. not for a Notre Dame fan anyhow.

now if this was a thread about which opposing players make you wince....

alright, I'm out.

 

[tannerpw3]

They put in work and are paid handsomely for it.

I'm sure guys whose degrees make them likely to make more next year than most members of this messageboard don't need you to stick up for them.

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

They put in work and are paid handsomely for it.

Seriously? I am so sick of hearing the excuse that college athletes are well paid because they get an $80,000 degree (or whatever it costs) for their efforts. That is the excuse non-athletes always seem to use in situations like this. You have no idea how hard it is unless you have been there and played a sport at the major college level. Intramural naked broom hockey doesn't count. You cannot imagine the work load and pressure involved if you actually take your studies seriously and play a sport. I am not talking about the Matt Leinarts of the world taking Ballroom Dance 101 and The Philosophy of Ren and Stimpy. I am talking about serious student-athletes.

I played basketball at a D-1 school (not ND) and most of my typical days during the season started at about 5:30 and didn't wind up until around midnight. And the offseason wasn't too much better. Did it pay for my degree? Yes. Was I paid "handsomely" for my 4 years of work? F-no!

Let me put it in general terms: say a typical day I was engaged in either an athletic or academic activity 18 hours of the day (which is about right give or take). Do that 6 days a week for the four months (16 weeks) of the duration of a normal season. Over four years, that totals out to 6,912 hours of work during the season only for my career. Say my scholarship was worth $30,000 per year which is $120,000 total. Just for the regular season, my pay would have averaged just over $17.00 an hour. If you stretch that out for the work I did beyond the regular season, that number goes down exponentially. Is that being paid "handsomely" I don't think so.

I just don't agree with trashing someone's entire career and saying they deserve the scrutiny because they chose to play football at ND. I don't know Ambrose Wooden personally or any of the other players mentioned, for that matter. Did they make some bad plays in their careers? Sure. But, you know what? Brady Quinn made some bad plays too. So did Joe Montana. It is part of sports. That's why I say talk about individual plays, but don't say "so and so sucks" or "this guy was the worst player ever". You don't know what these guys go through and how tough it is to do what they do on a daily basis.

That's just my opinion. Agree or disagree if you want.

 

[tannerpw3]

Did you really just say that a 18-22 year old making 17 bucks an hour to keep in shape (something in modern culture people PAY to do), go to a great college (something people pay a LOT to do), and be a national celebrity (something most people would kill to do), aren't being paid handsomely?

I'm in the real world; they're well compensated for their efforts. And the way you know they are, is how many people wouldn't trade places with one? I'm not just talking ND fans or even football fans. If you give the deal these kids have to any graduating high schooler, he's going to take it. It's a great deal. They earn it by their hard work, yes - but let's not act like it's not a sweet deal.

Now, I'm not saying that because of that, they deserve to get bashed. I personally don't bash players if I can help it. But the whole 'these guys give so much..." angle is tired. They're given more than enough in payment for their hard work. They're not soldiers, they're not farmers, they're not mothers. They're in a good situation.

I do think they deserve scrutiny, and even if they didn't, they'd get it. They're playing sports on NBC every week in the fall. There's going to be praise when they do well, so why shouldn't there be criticism when they do poorly? Further, these young men represent whole regions - and with ND, fair or not (especially as most of them aren't Catholic), a whole religion. Fans want them to represent it well. In football terms, that means winning.

But we're still nowhere near as hard on our players as SEC fans. We focus most of our ire on the coaches and administrators.

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

One question Tanner: Have you played major college athletics? If not, then you have no right to decree whether or not what they are doing is a "sweet deal".

 

[DirtySecret]

Did you really just say that a 18-22 year old making 17 bucks an hour to keep in shape (something in modern culture people PAY to do), go to a great college (something people pay a LOT to do), and be a national celebrity (something most people would kill to do), aren't being paid handsomely?

I'm in the real world; they're well compensated for their efforts. And the way you know they are, is how many people wouldn't trade places with one? I'm not just talking ND fans or even football fans. If you give the deal these kids have to any graduating high schooler, he's going to take it. It's a great deal. They earn it by their hard work, yes - but let's not act like it's not a sweet deal.

Now, I'm not saying that because of that, they deserve to get bashed. I personally don't bash players if I can help it. But the whole 'these guys give so much..." angle is tired. They're given more than enough in payment for their hard work. They're not soldiers, they're not farmers, they're not mothers. They're in a good situation.

I do think they deserve scrutiny, and even if they didn't, they'd get it. They're playing sports on NBC every week in the fall. There's going to be praise when they do well, so why shouldn't there be criticism when they do poorly? Further, these young men represent whole regions - and with ND, fair or not (especially as most of them aren't Catholic), a whole religion. Fans want them to represent it well. In football terms, that means winning.

But we're still nowhere near as hard on our players as SEC fans. We focus most of our ire on the coaches and administrators.

Well said! I couldn't agree more..

 

[WabashFalcon]

Tanner... I would pray to God for five hours of sleep on a good night. I almost gave up going to church on Sundays so I could be comatose from the time I got back from an away game on Saturday to the point I would have to wake up and lift before the gym closed at 5:00pm.

 

[tannerpw3]

One question Tanner: Have you played major college athletics? If not, then you have no right to decree whether or not what they are doing is a "sweet deal".

I don't follow your logic at all. Have you ever made a movie? Then I guess you're not fit to say you just saw a bad one, or a good one. Or that movies cost such and such an amount to make, and made such and such an amount at the box office. Have you ever run for office? If not, I guess you can't talk about politics.

But in fact I have dated a girl who was a major college athlete (in basketball), and I saw how it ruled her life and how much she put into it.

And she got a great deal, even though it lacked a lot of the perks an ND footballer gets. And she knew it.

 

[tannerpw3]

Tanner... I would pray to God for five hours of sleep on a good night. I almost gave up going to church on Sundays so I could be comatose from the time I got back from an away game on Saturday to the point I would have to wake up and lift before the gym closed at 5:00pm.

And you chose to do it in the first place and to continue to do it. No one forced you to do it. And if you didn't like it enough to continue, there were (or at least at ND there would have been) 10,000 players willing to take your place. Which tells me it's a good deal.

 

[WabashFalcon]

Let me try it another way. I loved playing football, but there were days that I would have rathered gnawed through my leg than get up for my eighth two-a-day kn a row... Thing is, I played at a smaller D3 powerhouse. D3 colleges do not give out scholarships, so I played for the love of the game man. I had to pay my own way for the pain. If I was a DI athlete, I would love LOVED to be out of college debt free. That isn't the case for me and a TON of other players that aren't on the 85 man roster of D1 teams.

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

I don't follow your logic at all. Have you ever made a movie? Then I guess you're not fit to say you just saw a bad one, or a good one. Or that movies cost such and such an amount to make, and made such and such an amount at the box office. Have you ever run for office? If not, I guess you can't talk about politics.

But in fact I have dated a girl who was a major college athlete (in basketball), and I saw how it ruled her life and how much she put into it.

And she got a great deal, even though it lacked a lot of the perks an ND footballer gets. And she knew it.

No, I have never made a movie. But I am not going to say that Jim Carrey sucks ass and is worthless in anything he does because I don't know how hard he has to work at it. That is exactly why I said you can criticize individual bad plays, but don't criticize the player's entire caeer because you haven't been there on a daily basis and been through what they go through.

You are using non sequitur logic. I never said if you haven't played college sports you don't get to watch or be critical. I said if you have never played college sports you have no right to say that everything they do is a sweet deal. You don't know that. And dating a girl who was an athlete doesn't give you full glimpse of that either. You might think you understand, but you don't. Yes, we chose to take that path and players do earn a degree, but to say they earn more than enough is a determination you cannot make unless you have been there.

I keep repeating myself - I never said there can't be criticism. Criticize bad plays all you want. I do it myself. My main point is don't criticize someone's entire collegiate career based off a handfull of missed plays. Basing judgement solely off what you see in games on Saturdays is not adequate information to evaluate an entire career or a person. I'm done. I have said all I have to say on this. You disagree and that is fine. Moving on...

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

Let me try it another way. I loved playing football, but there were days that I would have rathered gnawed through my leg than get up for my eighth two-a-day kn a row... Thing is, I played at a smaller D3 powerhouse. D3 colleges do not give out scholarships, so I played for the love of the game man. I had to pay my own way for the pain. If I was a DI athlete, I would love LOVED to be out of college debt free. That isn't the case for me and a TON of other players that aren't on the 85 man roster of D1 teams.

I hear ya brother! Started off my first two years as a walk-on. I wasn't even given the Adidas shoes and sweats the rest of the team received. Given a scholly my JR year, but not given one my senior year and was back to walk-on status. Not every one is like Charlie Weis and honors schollies for the full four years.

 

[tannerpw3]

No, I have never made a movie. But I am not going to say that Jim Carrey sucks ass and is worthless in anything he does because I don't know how hard he has to work at it. That is exactly why I said you can criticize individual bad plays, but don't criticize the player's entire caeer because you haven't been there on a daily basis and been through what they go through.

You are using non sequitur logic. I never said if you haven't played college sports you don't get to watch or be critical. I said if you have never played college sports you have no right to say that everything they do is a sweet deal. You don't know that. And dating a girl who was an athlete doesn't give you full glimpse of that either. You might think you understand, but you don't. Yes, we chose to take that path and players do earn a degree, but to say they earn more than enough is a determination you cannot make unless you have been there.

I keep repeating myself - I never said there can't be criticism. Criticize bad plays all you want. I do it myself. My main point is don't criticize someone's entire collegiate career based off a handfull of missed plays. Basing judgement solely off what you see in games on Saturdays is not adequate information to evaluate an entire career or a person. I'm done. I have said all I have to say on this. You disagree and that is fine. Moving on...

His career as a football player is based on what he does on the field on Saturdays. I don't care how he practices. Or how hard. The point of all the work and the practice (ostensibly) is to perform well on the field in games. That's why they don't broadcast the practices. That's why they're called practices. And your Jim Carrey comment is telling. What does your not knowing how hard he worked have to do with whether or not a movie is bad? Or a performance? We're discussing results. I can SEE if a performance is bad. I can SEE if Terrail Lambert is playing poorly game-in, game-out. It's not about effort. Everyone's effort is more or less equal (or at least, the difference in effort is probably indistinguishable to the layman, even if that small difference makes all the difference). It's about results. Fans and aficionados, of sports or of movies, judge results. The effort involved is taken as a given.


To Wabash: If you played for free, that's a whole different ballgame. Nothing I said would apply to non-scholarship college athletes.

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

His career as a football player is based on what he does on the field on Saturdays. I don't care how he practices. Or how hard. The point of all the work and the practice (ostensibly) is to perform well on the field in games. That's why they don't broadcast the practices. That's why they're called practices. And your Jim Carrey comment is telling. What does your not knowing how hard he worked have to do with whether or not a movie is bad? Or a performance? We're discussing results. I can SEE if a performance is bad. I can SEE if Terrail Lambert is playing poorly game-in, game-out. It's not about effort. Everyone's effort is more or less equal (or at least, the difference in effort is probably indistinguishable to the layman, even if that small difference makes all the difference). It's about results. Fans and aficionados, of sports or of movies, judge results. The effort involved is taken as a given.


To Wabash: If you played for free, that's a whole different ballgame. Nothing I said would apply to non-scholarship college athletes.

I am over this. You're not reading my entire posts or your not reading them well. I didn't say how hard an actor works has to do with whether or not a movie is bad. I am differentiating between criticizing individual plays or efforts versus criticizing a person as a whole or their whole career.

"Wow that player really made a bad play" versus "That player was worthless for the Irish."

One is discussing a botched play the other pretty much insults the entire effort an individual has put forth.

 

[tannerpw3]

But if that's what youre saying, I pretty much agreed with you in posts earlier in the thread. I always make the distinction between fair criticism and trashing a guy.

My going-away word on this topic, though, is that the players listed (some of them - the Armando and Abiamiri mentions were crazy) didn't 'make a bad play here or there'. They made a good play here or there. People defend them by citing a couple of good plays they made. But if you watch them their whole careers, those are the exceptions. And it's not unfair to say that, if it's true.

 

[Brown]

Tanner, I couldn't agree with you more.

We're on a fan site message board.

The idea that we can't point out players that disappointed, or frustrated us, during their ND tenure, seems a bit ridiculous.

If somebody loves a player, I'd want to know all the reasons why.

If somebody hates a player, I'd want to know all the reasons why.

This is a discussion forum for crying out loud.

 

[TDHeysus]

Zibby was supposed to cover over the top on that 4th and 9 play, hes as much to blame.

I say that was a great read by a QB. The combination of great execution, and superior talent was too much for ND to overcome that day. we over-achieved by matching their talent, but in the end the execution got us (/rimshot)

Holiday was recruited as an option QB and was forced into the West Coast offense. Can't blame him for not having the tools to fit the offense

Spot on

 

[WabashFalcon]

What the HELL are with these images popping up from ImageShack?

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

What the HELL are with these images popping up from ImageShack?

I am glad you are seeing it too Wabash. I thought I was just really high.

 

[WabashFalcon]

Irish... make with the puff puff pass brother!

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

Irish... make with the puff puff pass brother!

Okay, but you gotta put down the troll-smashing club first. Here you go. Hands over bong shaped like shillelagh...