Change we can believe in

[LOVEMYIRISH]

LMI, just want to make sure you are ok with the Gitmo prisoners coming to Minnesota. I hear there's plenty of room and constitutional rights for the murderers of innocents up there.

Absolutely I am fine with it.

Humans deserve due process. It's the simple. It's one of the core tennants of American society. EVERYONE deserves due process.

If there is evidence that they are guilty, provide it. Give them a trial, etc. If we don't want them, send them home.

Holding someone in detention for years upon years with no access to legal recourse is unAmerican in every way. Our Founding Fathers would vomit at what's been done. It's disgusting and reeks of Stalinism at it's best.

Let's not forget that many of these fellows were not captured by American forces, rather they were turned over by their tribal enemies in return for cash.

Anyone who knows how Afghanistan works knows full well that some of these fellows may literally been held for no other reason than being in the wrong tribe or family.

Besides, what's a worse fate...time in Gitmo or time in a cell with a mad American?

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

I am becoming a raging conservative on most issues more with each passing day...

There are very few conservatives in Washington anymore...the Republican Party purged them out back in 1998. Conservatism would be a welcome change in Washington. We haven't had that since Clinton. The first 6 years of the Clinton Era.

 

[ACamp1900]

There are very few conservatives in Washington anymore...the Republican Party purged them out back in 1998. Conservatism would be a welcome change in Washington. We haven't had that since Clinton. The first 6 years of the Clinton Era.

agreed, todays Repubs are far from what the right has built itself on economically... it seems both parties have shifted further left over the past 15 or so... at least economically and where social issues intermix with economic issues...

socially it may be the other way around with the right... and that's where I tend to side with the left, as long as my wallet isn't impacted...

 

[ACamp1900]

Holding someone in detention for years upon years with no access to legal recourse is unAmerican in every way. Our Founding Fathers would vomit at what's been done. It's disgusting and reeks of Stalinism at it's best.

Not all... Sam Adams would drink a beer to it, no pun intended...

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

agreed, todays Repubs are far from what the right has built itself on economically... it seems both parties have shifted further left over the past 15 or so... at least economically and where social issues intermix with economic issues...

socially it may be the other way around with the right... and that's where I tend to side with the left, as long as my wallet isn't impacted...

The Republican Party went to Supply-Side...which is so far from Conservatism it's amazing.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Not all... Sam Adams would drink a beer to it, no pun intended...

hehehehe... no

 

[IrishAlum1997]

Absolutely I am fine with it.

Humans deserve due process. It's the simple. It's one of the core tennants of American society. EVERYONE deserves due process.

If there is evidence that they are guilty, provide it. Give them a trial, etc. If we don't want them, send them home.

Holding someone in detention for years upon years with no access to legal recourse is unAmerican in every way. Our Founding Fathers would vomit at what's been done. It's disgusting and reeks of Stalinism at it's best.

Let's not forget that many of these fellows were not captured by American forces, rather they were turned over by their tribal enemies in return for cash.

Anyone who knows how Afghanistan works knows full well that some of these fellows may literally been held for no other reason than being in the wrong tribe or family.

Besides, what's a worse fate...time in Gitmo or time in a cell with a mad American?

I'll be sure to book your travel when Obama gets ready to talk with the Taliban. Be sure to bring Sean Penn.

I highly doubt our Founding Fathers would vomit.

I'll sleep at night knowing Gitmo Bay exists. And I believe that one of our 'core tenants' is that every AMERICAN deserves due process. Muslim extremists that kill innocent Americans through terrorist acts that include hijacking passengers planes and beheading people don't get a trial.

We don't want them. But 'sending them home' means sending them back to plot attacks on innocent people, including Americans.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

IA97

Why haven't we found Osama?

"It" caught my interest.

I was a bit angry after a certain event.

 

[IrishAlum1997]

Great question, Doomer. I hope we find him soon. Maybe we can give him a tour of NYC and a fair trial.

 

[no.1IrishFan]

Great question, Doomer. I hope we find him soon. Maybe we can give him a tour of NYC and a fair trial.

ROFL!!!!

 

[Sureal]

After seeing what has just occured with AIG I feel inclined to chime in a bit being the tone on this lively thread has gotten better... Major props are due...

The AIG revelation should come to nobody's surprise. Albeit the urgency of some type of action was needed, the seemingly ignored fact that the infrastructure of these "bailout" companies was in error has come back to bite this administration. Simply throwing money at a problem does not fix the problem. You cannot socially engineer an executives' lust/greed for money. These failing companies need an overhaul in leadership and how they do business. Giving these guys money without reservation is reckless at best. Now hopefully this congress and administration will understand that they are wasting taxpayers money in these reckless bailout plans. Let the irresponsible businesses fail and file Chapter uh... I think it's 11...
This whole situation occured because of the lack of regulation on the lending industry and the greed of both the consumer and businesses.

Mind you I'm neither Repub or Demmie...

 

[FrankMA]

I'll be sure to book your travel when Obama gets ready to talk with the Taliban. Be sure to bring Sean Penn.

I highly doubt our Founding Fathers would vomit.

I'll sleep at night knowing Gitmo Bay exists. And I believe that one of our 'core tenants' is that every AMERICAN deserves due process. Muslim extremists that kill innocent Americans through terrorist acts that include hijacking passengers planes and beheading people don't get a trial.

We don't want them. But 'sending them home' means sending them back to plot attacks on innocent people, including Americans.

Right on-every American citizen is entitled to due process. Where the idea that non-US citizens have some kind of US rights, even when they are not on US soil, is absured.
As far as I am concerned, Muslim terrorists are not entitled to any better treatment
than they give Americans who are captured by them. Of course, we do treat them a lot better than they deserve. Gitmo is more like a Club Med than the horror pit some people paint it as.

 

[WabashFalcon]

Right on-every American citizen is entitled to due process. Where the idea that non-US citizens have some kind of US rights, even when they are not on US soil, is absured.
As far as I am concerned, Muslim terrorists are not entitled to any better treatment
than they give Americans who are captured by them. Of course, we do treat them a lot better than they deserve. Gitmo is more like a Club Med than the horror pit some people paint it as.

Gotta agree. I love how the Muslims treated Daniel Pearl when they captured him. Ya know... the guy who was a writer... an innocent writer... They gave him a bed, a nice place to sleep...

Then cut his head off on live TV.

Is that justice?

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

Right on-every American citizen is entitled to due process. Where the idea that non-US citizens have some kind of US rights, even when they are not on US soil, is absured.
As far as I am concerned, Muslim terrorists are not entitled to any better treatment
than they give Americans who are captured by them. Of course, we do treat them a lot better than they deserve. Gitmo is more like a Club Med than the horror pit some people paint it as.

gitmo is NOT "more like club med" in any way. comparing detainment and torture amongst and between the US and other groups doesn't make gitmo any less fucked up. you can't justify something because it's less evil than the other side.

now, i dont know what rights they should be given, if any, so i'll stay out of that side of the convo. gitmo should not be taken lightly and we certainly should not blind ourselves to the fact that it really is a horror pit.

 

[IrishAddiction]

my own opinion is why hold em in Gitmo?..... call me old fashion but if we catch them shooting at US troops or planning attacks on US troops, US friends, US anything, just kill em. thats war. quit making it something its not. its not humane. wars evil, but a necessary evil at that. after 9/11, we should have just cleaned house. IMO.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I want to see bin L dangling on a street light held by dental floss around his nuts. Why has that not happened? Who is protecting the asswipe?

I have applied for the job several times but always been told I am too ugly.

 

[IrishAddiction]

I want to see bin L dangling on a street light held by dental floss around his nuts. Why has that not happened? Who is protecting the asswipe?

I have applied for the job several times but always been told I am too ugly.

yea, i think we would all love to see that. hard to be called a martyr when your hanging by your testes. i kinda get the feeling hes dead though. just thinking, he wasnt in good health when we started looking for the fucker. not to mention how many caves we blew up in that damn bullah bullah country called afghanistan.

and i think the hooves are what did it with them not hiring you. how can you hire somebody if they arent wearing cool shoes right? haha jk brotha man.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I'm not kidding bud.

I wore Beverly Hills booties dude. I was a sharp dressed animal. Booties on all four hooves. I have been cute.

I'm serious.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Right on-every American citizen is entitled to due process. Where the idea that non-US citizens have some kind of US rights, even when they are not on US soil, is absured.
As far as I am concerned, Muslim terrorists are not entitled to any better treatment
than they give Americans who are captured by them. Of course, we do treat them a lot better than they deserve. Gitmo is more like a Club Med than the horror pit some people paint it as.

Actually, the idea of a fair and speedy trial was not a value they believed only American's should get...they firmly believed and strove for it as a fundamental value across all societies.

I never said they have US rights if they are not on US soil. HOWEVER, as they have been captured by the US (justly or not) they deserve a fair trial. We know for a FACT that some of the guys we held for years were not combatants, but were of the wrong tribe...

Terrorists deserve punishment that goes without saying. However, in the US we punish people AFTER we try them. That's why we are America and not Iran.

 

[IrishAlum1997]

Actually, the idea of a fair and speedy trial was not a value they believed only American's should get...they firmly believed and strove for it as a fundamental value across all societies.

I never said they have US rights if they are not on US soil. HOWEVER, as they have been captured by the US (justly or not) they deserve a fair trial. We know for a FACT that some of the guys we held for years were not combatants, but were of the wrong tribe...

Terrorists deserve punishment that goes without saying. However, in the US we punish people AFTER we try them. That's why we are America and not Iran.

OK. I'll try them.

Taste like chicken. Now off with their heads!!!

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

I'll be sure to book your travel when Obama gets ready to talk with the Taliban. Be sure to bring Sean Penn.

How did the Taliban come into this discussion?

By the way, just a side note...if you don't like Obama talking to the Taliban...maybe you should rip George Bush for the Surge.

Why?

Because the surge was successful by our NEGOTIATING WITH KNOWN INSURGENTS AND PAYING THEM NOT TO SHOOT US.

Think about that for a second. They paid guys that they KNEW shot and killed American soldiers to not do it again. And not a peep of bitching about GWB for doing this.

I highly doubt our Founding Fathers would vomit.

Then maybe you should read up on them...if you don't think they would be beside themselves, you clearly don't know our Founding Fathers well.

Detention without trial was considered a violation of basic human rights to them.

I'll sleep at night knowing Gitmo Bay exists. And I believe that one of our 'core tenants' is that every AMERICAN deserves due process.

Change that to every person and you will begin to understand the people who founded this country.

Limit it to only Americans and you are no better than the tyrants who once denied the the colonists their basic rights.

Muslim extremists that kill innocent Americans through terrorist acts that include hijacking passengers planes and beheading people don't get a trial.

Not in countries run by tyrants and despots no.

In the civilized world they do. That's why we are civilized and they are not. If you stoop to their level, then you are just as bad.

We don't want them. But 'sending them home' means sending them back to plot attacks on innocent people, including Americans.

If they are guilty of something...then try them...jail them...and throw away the key.

No trial = tyranny and fundamental violation of human rights. It doesn't matter how evil they are. That's why we are better than them.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

"If Tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison

"The means of defense against foriegn danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home."
James Madison

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

...

 

[IrishAlum1997]

"If Tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison

"The means of defense against foriegn danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home."
James Madison

"C is for Cookie, that's good enough for me."
Cookie Monster

 

[ACamp1900]

I have always thought the founding fathers would have been libid a LONG LONG time ago really...


“It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible.” George Washington

"He that is of the opinion money will do everything may well be suspected of doing everything for money. " Benjamin Franklin

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government." Thomas Jefferson *I LOVE JEFFERSON*

"In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress." John Adams

“Ninety-nine percent of the failures come from people who have the habit of making excuses.” George Washington

"There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty." John Adams

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." Thomas Jefferson

also, taking sides and backing a tribe or militant group then funding them is HARDLY new... Clinton did it, Daddy Bush did it, Reagan did it TONS in Central America... hell you could go back to Kennedy with that one just off the top of my head...

 

[FrankMA]

“It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible.” George Washington

"He that is of the opinion money will do everything may well be suspected of doing everything for money. " Benjamin Franklin

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government." Thomas Jefferson *I LOVE JEFFERSON*

"There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty." John Adams

Yes, and how we need this type of government today!

 

[ACamp1900]

Yes, and how we need this type of government today!

yes and obviously both sides of the age old arguement have shit on a lot of what the founder's belived in...

 

[phork]

Patriot Act.

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

yea...'patriot'

pssssssh

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

“It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible.” George Washington

He never said this...sorry...urban legend.

"He that is of the opinion money will do everything may well be suspected of doing everything for money. " Benjamin Franklin

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government." Thomas Jefferson *I LOVE JEFFERSON*

"In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress." John Adams

“Ninety-nine percent of the failures come from people who have the habit of making excuses.” George Washington

"There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty." John Adams

Yup...agree with them all.

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." Thomas Jefferson

Precisely why we have a Republic and never implemented Democracy.

also, taking sides and backing a tribe or militant group then funding them is HARDLY new... Clinton did it, Daddy Bush did it, Reagan did it TONS in Central America... hell you could go back to Kennedy with that one just off the top of my head...

Agreed...we've done it for years. But the Bush example was one that related to fighting militant Islamists. AND IT WORKED. We shall see if Obama's talks with the Taliban get anywhere.