Academic Admissions at Notre Dame

[Irish Rogue]

BS...

Our standards have not been raised since we won our last championship...

Don't use academics as an excuse. We have elite talent WITH our standards.

Where is this elite talent? Short of Floyd/Tate/Smith, I disagree. Watch Oklahoma/USC, you see the difference in "Elite Talent". According to articles written, the admission standards have been raised. See the SI article about calculus. Do you think any USC clowns are required to have calculus to be admitted? 1988 had elite talent with relaxed standards.

 

[ARALOU]

BS...

Our standards have not been raised since we won our last championship...

Not true according to "several" books I have read and interviews I have seen. I tend to believe that standards had been tweaked up a bit under the White regime.

 

[tgolden]

Where is this elite talent? Short of Floyd/Tate/Smith, I disagree. Watch Oklahoma/USC, you see the difference in "Elite Talent". According to articles written, the admission standards have been raised. See the SI article about calculus. Do you think any USC clowns are required to have calculus to be admitted? 1988 had elite talent with relaxed standards.

How did we have the #1 recruiting class last year and a top 5 class the year before that? Maybe they aren't actually elite talent... maybe every recruting service is wrong. But we can get the guys we want who supposedly have talent with the standards as they are. ND got guys coveted by many colleges such as Armando Allen, Jimmy Clausen, James Aldridge, Sam Young, etc. They all had the test scores, grades, class load, etc to get into Notre Dame. Just because they have not yet panned out to be superstars does not mean they have no talent. Maybe if Baldwin had come here (and I still doubt that test scores were the only reason he was not offered), he would nto have panned out either.

If you lower the standards much more, ND will have to create a new major called "Football" or "General Studies" or something like that. ND is a good school. If a football player wants to come here, given the time they spend at practice and traveling to games, he has to meet a certain level to have any chance of graduating. Unless you'd prefer ND lower it's whole academic reputation for both athletes and for the rest of the student body in exchange for football, it is impossible to lower the standards much more for football players. And even if we did, all the 5 stars in the world don't necessarily lead to wins as we have learned the past 2 years. We have all the talent in the world with the admissions standards as they are right now. We just need to develope it.

 

[WaveDomer]

I would actually like to see a breakdown of who is in favor of lower standards and who isn't by whether or not they graduated ND or are a student presently. I think if you are a graduate or current student (or paying parent) you have a lot more investment (monetarily and emotionally) into the standards of the school.

 

[ARALOU]

5 star skill position talent is one thing. I think yu also have to have talented players on both lines of scrimmage. We dont seem to have that yet. The skill position guys can make plays "if" they have time for the play to develop. A good number of our offensive plays are blown up at the snap. On defense they seem to not get much push the majority of the time. That translates into long saturday afternoons for the Irish.

 

[Irish Rogue]

My main point is to take a chance on a player who has good charecter, but may not be a 1200 Sat. The football team/players bring in a tremendous amount of revenue to the university. I don't think they go wrong for taking a chance on a Tony Rice, I think that panned out pretty good for ND. Don't turn ND into an IVY league school.

 

[ARALOU]

An argument can made for those that pay tuition and have to get in on academics (test score) too. Where do you draw the line? If I pay a butt load of money to get a degree I dont want it watered down by lower standards. I can argue your side also. I am not saying either way. I am just saying I understand both sides. I have been told some students could care less about Irish football and are there to get a prestigious degree. I cant imagine being a student and not supporting the athletics but I guess it happens.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Where is this elite talent? Short of Floyd/Tate/Smith, I disagree. Watch Oklahoma/USC, you see the difference in "Elite Talent". According to articles written, the admission standards have been raised. See the SI article about calculus. Do you think any USC clowns are required to have calculus to be admitted? 1988 had elite talent with relaxed standards.

The talent is all over the team. Is it being utilized well, apparently not. That's a coaching issue, not a lack of talent issue.

ND's class last year was #1 in the country with the highest average star rating in the country. And you know what, the average ranking of the team WENT DOWN after they committed to ND...and they were STILL rated the highest.

I know that USC clowns don't have to take Calc. I don't care either. Just because USC, tOSU, FSU, and other schools don't give a shit about their student-athletes is not my problem.

Seeing that we can consistently get Top10 talent...and even Top5 talent, there is no reason to change and in fact, we had the highest GSR last year as well...

So lowering our academic standards is something that will not really help the team...and frankly would probably lower our GSR by having more guys drop out.

What's the point in that?

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

My main point is to take a chance on a player who has good charecter, but may not be a 1200 Sat. The football team/players bring in a tremendous amount of revenue to the university. I don't think they go wrong for taking a chance on a Tony Rice, I think that panned out pretty good for ND. Don't turn ND into an IVY league school.

Nobody is trying to turn ND into an Ivy. I am saying leaving ND as it is.

You are trying to change it and make it a lesser school.

 

[kmoose]

Nobody is trying to turn ND into an Ivy. I am saying leaving ND as it is.

You are trying to change it and make it a lesser school.

I have to admit, LMI, I am with Irish Rogue on this one.........in the sense that, if you have a guy who shows great character(not a kid who simply has never been in trouble, but a guy with GREAT character) and good smarts, I would say that those qualities should count. I am reading "Loyal Sons" right now, a book about the '24 National Championship team (of the Four Horsemen fame). Rockne's guys were not all geniuses with great test scores. But they *were* upstanding young men. I don't think taking people with great character, but who maybe don't have great test scores, is "watering down" anything. But I'm a blue collar guy who has that blue collar mentality of "I don't care how book smart you are, show me that you can figure out this problem we have, using your training and your common sense." I'm not an ND grad, so maybe I just don't understand the mentality they teach there. But my brother is on the MBA faculty, and I know he counsels his students on the values of hard work and humility. I know alot of ND people roll their eyes when others talk about the Rudy story. But what was the moral of that story? That you can be an average guy, of sufficient intelligence, and you can succeed at the highest level, if you dedicate yourself to it. Isn't that part of the embodiment of the Notre Dame spirit?

 

[tgolden]

My main point is to take a chance on a player who has good charecter, but may not be a 1200 Sat. The football team/players bring in a tremendous amount of revenue to the university. I don't think they go wrong for taking a chance on a Tony Rice, I think that panned out pretty good for ND. Don't turn ND into an IVY league school.

Very, very few of the scholarship guys on our team had 1200 SATs. Most were more around 900-1100 max.

and kmoose, if a guy has GREAT character and good smarts, and he is a good enough football player (or athlete in another varsity sport) that ND coaches want him, he will not be turned away. Despite the cultural and economic biases, etc of standardized testing, a guy with GREAT character (presumably that means he works hard in high school, gets good grades, takes semi-challenging classes and doesn't just take every easy elective and study hall he can) should be able to get at least a 900 on the SAT or a 18 on the ACT. ND will take those guys provided they take a course load that will prepare them to succeed at college. Trust me, ND admissions looks as much at course load as anything. If a guy is taking home ec, algebra I, study hall and gym as a senior in high school and didn't take much higher intellectual courses in earlier years and he gets a 19 on his ACT, they aren't going to care if he has a 4.0. However, if a guy is taking pre-calc, english, some science class and some other legit class and has good recomendations from coaches and teachers with maybe a 3.2 gpa and a 18 on his ACT, they are far more likely to take him.

Not everyone is made for Notre Dame. That doesn't mean they aren't good kids, and it doesn't mean they won't go on to be successful people someplace else.j

Nobody is asking for ND to only recruit geniuses. I wouldn't say many of the players we have now are geniuses or have stellar test scores. Look at the recruiting profiles for the last few classes and look at their test scores and GPAs. Some are smarter than others, some work harder than others. Admissions considers work ethic right along with test scores, GPAs, course load, etc when they look at a guy. But there is only so low you can go with scores. I'm not sure what you guys want. Should we accept guys with 12s on their ACTs or 500s on their SATs with 3.5 gpas taking remedial classes at horrible high schools? I'm not saying these are bad kids if they are trying hard. Again, some people are just not made for Notre Dame. We have brought in plenty of very talented athletes with the standards we have now. Development is an issue far more than admissions.

 

[Bubba]

I have to admit, LMI, I am with Irish Rogue on this one.........in the sense that, if you have a guy who shows great character(not a kid who simply has never been in trouble, but a guy with GREAT character) and good smarts, I would say that those qualities should count. I am reading "Loyal Sons" right now, a book about the '24 National Championship team (of the Four Horsemen fame). Rockne's guys were not all geniuses with great test scores. But they *were* upstanding young men. I don't think taking people with great character, but who maybe don't have great test scores, is "watering down" anything. But I'm a blue collar guy who has that blue collar mentality of "I don't care how book smart you are, show me that you can figure out this problem we have, using your training and your common sense." I'm not an ND grad, so maybe I just don't understand the mentality they teach there. But my brother is on the MBA faculty, and I know he counsels his students on the values of hard work and humility. I know alot of ND people roll their eyes when others talk about the Rudy story. But what was the moral of that story? That you can be an average guy, of sufficient intelligence, and you can succeed at the highest level, if you dedicate yourself to it. Isn't that part of the embodiment of the Notre Dame spirit?

Very well put. Reps!

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I have to admit, LMI, I am with Irish Rogue on this one.........in the sense that, if you have a guy who shows great character(not a kid who simply has never been in trouble, but a guy with GREAT character) and good smarts, I would say that those qualities should count. I am reading "Loyal Sons" right now, a book about the '24 National Championship team (of the Four Horsemen fame). Rockne's guys were not all geniuses with great test scores. But they *were* upstanding young men. I don't think taking people with great character, but who maybe don't have great test scores, is "watering down" anything. But I'm a blue collar guy who has that blue collar mentality of "I don't care how book smart you are, show me that you can figure out this problem we have, using your training and your common sense." I'm not an ND grad, so maybe I just don't understand the mentality they teach there. But my brother is on the MBA faculty, and I know he counsels his students on the values of hard work and humility. I know alot of ND people roll their eyes when others talk about the Rudy story. But what was the moral of that story? That you can be an average guy, of sufficient intelligence, and you can succeed at the highest level, if you dedicate yourself to it. Isn't that part of the embodiment of the Notre Dame spirit?

As usual, great post Kmoose. Great posts by everyone.

I prefer proof of hard work and character over highest test scores, but maybe that's why I do what I do and ND does what ND does. Great points on all sides.

My (ignorant) perception of Ivy League schools is that they are the oldest well established schools in the country that "accept" high test scorers and great grand kids of former presidents and pilgrims. My "perception" of Notre Dame du Lac is that it is God's school. And (maybe a stretch) also one of the biggest military (ROTC) schools in the country after Army Navy Air Force. I would hope academic "standards" would be considered only after a prospective football player has already proven he is willing to work his ass off while trying (give or take a mistake or two or 415) to follow Notre Dame and her son's influence.

Uh oh. Painkillers taking effect. (Just having some fun here and I know my words kinda float away like a leaf - then get raked and stuffed in a Hefty bag...)

Let ND be ND. Let wannabee coaches submit their application.

 

[IrishAddiction]

Excellent posts Neutered, kmoose and Irish Rogue..... i dont think that any of us want notre dame to be an ivy league type school, but feel like that is what it is turning into LMI. I believe Notre Dame should stay Notre Dame as well, just quit raising the bar to where excellent kids with excellent character cannot get in. Look at something besides just test scores. Just to name another player from this years class (09) that couldnt get in bc of academics, remember Micheal Campanaro? Clocked the fastest time at the scout combines, running a 4.37, and put up gaddy numbers at his hs in Maryland. alot of fans, and our staff, were very high on this speedster for along time. Was not offered due to GPA and SAT scores(2.8 and 860). Now committed to Wake Forest. Probably would have been offered in the late 80s early 90s.

 

[GoIrish21]

It's FAR easier to get in as a scholarship football player though...far far easier.

When the max on the SAT was 1600, the average for the football team was 960. Most students could not get in with less than 1200.

For those who remember SAT scores, sit and think about this for a minute...

I'm a current Freshman at ND and your view of the SAT seems to be a bit outdated. You'd be hard pressed to find any students walking around (i.e. not athletes or anyone else with significant pull) with anything less than a 1300. The majority of students need over 1400 to really be competitive with the applicant pool. Even a 1400-1500 doesn't guarantee you anything.

 

[tankjeep]

I have to admit, LMI, I am with Irish Rogue on this one.........in the sense that, if you have a guy who shows great character(not a kid who simply has never been in trouble, but a guy with GREAT character) and good smarts, I would say that those qualities should count. I am reading "Loyal Sons" right now, a book about the '24 National Championship team (of the Four Horsemen fame). Rockne's guys were not all geniuses with great test scores. But they *were* upstanding young men. I don't think taking people with great character, but who maybe don't have great test scores, is "watering down" anything. But I'm a blue collar guy who has that blue collar mentality of "I don't care how book smart you are, show me that you can figure out this problem we have, using your training and your common sense." I'm not an ND grad, so maybe I just don't understand the mentality they teach there. But my brother is on the MBA faculty, and I know he counsels his students on the values of hard work and humility. I know alot of ND people roll their eyes when others talk about the Rudy story. But what was the moral of that story? That you can be an average guy, of sufficient intelligence, and you can succeed at the highest level, if you dedicate yourself to it. Isn't that part of the embodiment of the Notre Dame spirit?

nice post, maybe eharmony can come up with a questionnaire for potential notre dame football players. that way they find players that are suitable fits for nd. it worked for me in finding my wonderful wife.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

I'm a current Freshman at ND and your view of the SAT seems to be a bit outdated. You'd be hard pressed to find any students walking around (i.e. not athletes or anyone else with significant pull) with anything less than a 1300. The majority of students need over 1400 to really be competitive with the applicant pool. Even a 1400-1500 doesn't guarantee you anything.

And yet the football team AVERAGE is below 1,000

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

I have to admit, LMI, I am with Irish Rogue on this one.........in the sense that, if you have a guy who shows great character(not a kid who simply has never been in trouble, but a guy with GREAT character) and good smarts, I would say that those qualities should count. I am reading "Loyal Sons" right now, a book about the '24 National Championship team (of the Four Horsemen fame). Rockne's guys were not all geniuses with great test scores. But they *were* upstanding young men. I don't think taking people with great character, but who maybe don't have great test scores, is "watering down" anything. But I'm a blue collar guy who has that blue collar mentality of "I don't care how book smart you are, show me that you can figure out this problem we have, using your training and your common sense." I'm not an ND grad, so maybe I just don't understand the mentality they teach there. But my brother is on the MBA faculty, and I know he counsels his students on the values of hard work and humility. I know alot of ND people roll their eyes when others talk about the Rudy story. But what was the moral of that story? That you can be an average guy, of sufficient intelligence, and you can succeed at the highest level, if you dedicate yourself to it. Isn't that part of the embodiment of the Notre Dame spirit?

Trust me man, MANY of the players are AVERAGE guys...we are mainly keeping out the slackers of the lot coming out of High School.

 

[GoIrish21]

And yet the football team AVERAGE is below 1,000

I understand that, but if you try to make a team out of kids with 1400 SAT scores, I'm not sure you'd be able to fill a roster. I have classes with Jamoris Slaughter, Kyle Rudolph, Mike Golic, Dayne Christ, and Jonas Gray. And I would say inside the classroom, they are no different than any other student (other than a good 6 inches taller and 75-100 pounds heavier). They are not at all disruptive, do the homework (with the help of their academic tutors), and participate at least as much as the average student. In fact, in theology class, Jamoris is one of the class's most vocal contributors. Sure they don't have the 4.0 GPAs and 1400 SAT scores of everyone else, but at least they show up every day (probably at a higher rate than the general student population), do the homework, pay attention, and try their best. What more could you ask? Especially considering the hours each day they dedicate to getting up at 6am to lift and then meetings and practice all day after school until 7-8 o'clock.

So I agree with whoever is arguing in favor of admitting kids with good character even if their grades aren't all too stellar, you want kids like this. I think their teacher recommendations give more insight to their classroom performance than any standardized test. But at the same time, we don't want kids strolling into class 30 minutes late, causing all kinds of disruptions, dressed inappropriately flashing gang signs. But if the kid has good character, and you can often tell from 1 on 1 interviews, then I say give him a chance.

 

[ARALOU]

Good post, reps to you. Appreciate the insight.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

I understand that, but if you try to make a team out of kids with 1400 SAT scores, I'm not sure you'd be able to fill a roster.

This is very true and that's why ND does not do it and has never tried to...nor is anyone suggesting it.

So I agree with whoever is arguing in favor of admitting kids with good character even if their grades aren't all too stellar, you want kids like this. I think their teacher recommendations give more insight to their classroom performance than any standardized test. But at the same time, we don't want kids strolling into class 30 minutes late, causing all kinds of disruptions, dressed inappropriately flashing gang signs. But if the kid has good character, and you can often tell from 1 on 1 interviews, then I say give him a chance.

I agree about admitting kids with good character, etc...but I don't agree that we should lower our current standards. It's just not needed.

 

[gairish]

admissions

admissions

I'm not an alum, as you all know, but with that said my love and respect for Notre Dame is as strong as a non alum could have it. I read these posts everynight and would like to say this about admissions. You are all missing the point, we all know ND has higher standards thats why when one of these other schools gets a student who excells its promoted so well. They could do that with half the Athletes at ND. Where Notre Dame is lacking (and severly lacking) is football players at the non skilled positions who are the motor of any football team. If you think the majority of lineman, linebackers and hitters on special teams of this years top 15 teams in the country could get into Notre Dame then you are dillusional. This is where we are playing with a different type of kid and so be it if this great school wants it that way. I'm telling you this because I have first hand knowledge from people who are at some of these top tier programs. I'm always going to love Notre Dame and the people who graduated from the school are to be admired, but its probably time to adjust your expectations. Yes we should beat Syr, Pitt, NC, and even BC but the days of constant excellance are over. Unless they let football players in. Note I did not say student athletes.

 

[tgolden]

I'm not an alum, as you all know, but with that said my love and respect for Notre Dame is as strong as a non alum could have it. I read these posts everynight and would like to say this about admissions. You are all missing the point, we all know ND has higher standards thats why when one of these other schools gets a student who excells its promoted so well. They could do that with half the Athletes at ND. Where Notre Dame is lacking (and severly lacking) is football players at the non skilled positions who are the motor of any football team. If you think the majority of lineman, linebackers and hitters on special teams of this years top 15 teams in the country could get into Notre Dame then you are dillusional. This is where we are playing with a different type of kid and so be it if this great school wants it that way. I'm telling you this because I have first hand knowledge from people who are at some of these top tier programs. I'm always going to love Notre Dame and the people who graduated from the school are to be admired, but its probably time to adjust your expectations. Yes we should beat Syr, Pitt, NC, and even BC but the days of constant excellance are over. Unless they let football players in. Note I did not say student athletes.

Are skilled position players smarter than "non skilled" position players that they can manage to get in? I know they might not be living up to the hype right now, but we have landed some pretty highly ranked offensive linemen over the last few years and some pretty decently ranked linebackers. If you have all this first hand knowledge, then you should realize if we lower the standards much more, the kids we get are not going to be able to graduate... nor will they be able to play more than a year or two because they'll flunk out. With the guys we are able to get now, there is no reason that we shouldn't be able to win. We brought in the #1/#2 recruiting class in the country last year, and that included some linebackers, dlinemen and olinemen, and we did that without changing the current standards for student-athletes' admission. The year before that we brought in a top 10 class and the year before that, a top 15 class. There is no reason to not be winning with the talent we have.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Are skilled position players smarter than "non skilled" position players that they can manage to get in? I know they might not be living up to the hype right now, but we have landed some pretty highly ranked offensive linemen over the last few years and some pretty decently ranked linebackers. If you have all this first hand knowledge, then you should realize if we lower the standards much more, the kids we get are not going to be able to graduate... nor will they be able to play more than a year or two because they'll flunk out. With the guys we are able to get now, there is no reason that we shouldn't be able to win. We brought in the #1/#2 recruiting class in the country last year, and that included some linebackers, dlinemen and olinemen, and we did that without changing the current standards for student-athletes' admission. The year before that we brought in a top 10 class and the year before that, a top 15 class. There is no reason to not be winning with the talent we have.

Do you have first hand knowledge of what is going to happen to the football team? Do you have first hand knowledge of your own future? Just curious.

Does ND give music scholarships? Volleyball scholarships?

Does ND have proper "teachers" in place to handle such talent?

I'm getting confused here.

If you want a football program to happen, let football happen. Cut the crap. Football players will attend class or listen to tutors because they have a job to do.

(Don't let the JUCO's in though...)

 

[IrishAddiction]

ESPN agrees. until Notre Dame lowers admission standards, Notre Dame will not compete for a national championship or BCS game. Also talks about Manti and Jenkins a little bit. Link below.

ESPN: Chat with Scouts Inc.'s Tom Luginbill - SportsNation

 

[Irish Rogue]

Slightly off topic, but did anyone catch Sneaky Pete on 60 minutes last night. The quote I caught was "Carroll recruits LA Gang members". I'm not judging !!! I wonder how many clowns he gets into usc that are gang members ?

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

ESPN agrees. until Notre Dame lowers admission standards, Notre Dame will not compete for a national championship or BCS game. Also talks about Manti and Jenkins a little bit. Link below.

ESPN: Chat with Scouts Inc.'s Tom Luginbill - SportsNation

If we have Top10 or better talent, admissions don't need to change.

 

[Aerosmith777]

ESPN agrees. until Notre Dame lowers admission standards, Notre Dame will not compete for a national championship or BCS game. Also talks about Manti and Jenkins a little bit. Link below.

ESPN: Chat with Scouts Inc.'s Tom Luginbill - SportsNation

I knew ND was right in not lowering the standard when the reason for lowering them began with the words "ESPN agrees." Lol.

 

[tko]

Slightly off topic, but did anyone catch Sneaky Pete on 60 minutes last night. The quote I caught was "Carroll recruits LA Gang members". I'm not judging !!! I wonder how many clowns he gets into usc that are gang members ?

people can say what they want about petey but the guy has it figured out. maybe charlie should take some notes. pete's kids play hard, win and have fun and his coaching staff is one of the best in the country.

 

[IrishAddiction]

Yea maybe we do have top ten talent but it has yet to prove anything. we cant get the players here needed to go to the BCS, then we are screwed. at least on the football field, and believe it or not, alot of fans on this site care about winning football games.