Notre Dame Fans Flinch too much

[kicker20]

Being a former player for Holtz and Davie from 1995-99, Coach Holtz had 2 words he felt vital to winning a close game, " Don't Flinch". I believe in this demeanor 100%, but it has been very clear that many of the Notre Dame football fans Flinch way too much and often. Whether it concerns Coach Weis, Brandon walker, or Jimmy Clausen. This type of attitude will only divide a looker room and the fan base. I really hope in the very near future, this way of thinking will change, and the fan base will unite under good or bad situations. Trust me, the players will only grow stronger by the undivided loyalty of the Notre Dame football program.
Kevin Kopka #20

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

agreed.

 

[ND.SB]

Being a former player for Holtz and Davie from 1995-99, Coach Holtz had 2 words he felt vital to winning a close game, " Don't Flinch". I believe in this demeanor 100%, but it has been very clear that many of the Notre Dame football fans Flinch way too much and often. Whether it concerns Coach Weis, Brandon walker, or Jimmy Clausen. This type of attitude will only divide a looker room and the fan base. I really hope in the very near future, this way of thinking will change, and the fan base will unite under good or bad situations. Trust me, the players will only grow stronger by the undivided loyalty of the Notre Dame football program.
Kevin Kopka #20

You're 100% right.

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

I'm not sure I'm convinced that MY flinching caused the meltdowns against NC... or Stanford.... or Pitt....or Navy... or Syracuse. I'm not sure my flinching cause the team to get beatdown by Michigan State or USC.

I get what you are saying... We need to always be supportive of the team. But please don't turn this into a blaming the victim thing. Its not OUR fault the team isn't producing they way the talent should be.

 

[kicker20]

I'm not sure I'm convinced that MY flinching caused the meltdowns against NC... or Stanford.... or Pitt....or Navy... or Syracuse. I'm not sure my flinching cause the team to get beatdown by Michigan State or USC.

I get what you are saying... We need to always be supportive of the team. But please don't turn this into a blaming the victim thing. Its not OUR fault the team isn't producing they way the talent should be.

As a former player, I or any other player would never say we lost due to the fair weather fans, and the lack of their support during good or bad times. The players that dawn the blue and gold week in and week out don't look for excuses, they look to improve every week. The last people they would ever blame their failures on are the fans. Words can't express the first time I walked into a peep rally, or saw the whole student section stand during game time. I will never doubt your loyalty, just the manner in which some people choose to display it.

 

[mooneytostle]

Being a former player for Holtz and Davie from 1995-99, Coach Holtz had 2 words he felt vital to winning a close game, " Don't Flinch". I believe in this demeanor 100%, but it has been very clear that many of the Notre Dame football fans Flinch way too much and often. Whether it concerns Coach Weis, Brandon walker, or Jimmy Clausen. This type of attitude will only divide a looker room and the fan base. I really hope in the very near future, this way of thinking will change, and the fan base will unite under good or bad situations. Trust me, the players will only grow stronger by the undivided loyalty of the Notre Dame football program.
Kevin Kopka #20

This program has been mediocre on the whole for 15 years. Any other school in the country probably would have lost its fans by now. But as long as there is mismanagement of the football program by the powers that be and the coaching staff, there is going to be division among the fans. I will never stop supporting this football team or the university that I love so much - but I will not support it blindly nor will I do it in the face of clear mismanagement. The players have the undivided loyalty of the fans...the coaching staff, AD, BOT, etc does not and nor should they.

 

[chyrspchuck]

Being a former player for Holtz and Davie from 1995-99, Coach Holtz had 2 words he felt vital to winning a close game, " Don't Flinch". I believe in this demeanor 100%, but it has been very clear that many of the Notre Dame football fans Flinch way too much and often. Whether it concerns Coach Weis, Brandon walker, or Jimmy Clausen. This type of attitude will only divide a looker room and the fan base. I really hope in the very near future, this way of thinking will change, and the fan base will unite under good or bad situations. Trust me, the players will only grow stronger by the undivided loyalty of the Notre Dame football program.
Kevin Kopka #20

I agree 100%, like Lou said at the Michigan pep rally before the dedication of his statue, ask yourself one question, "If i didn't show up will the team have missed me....." they need our support now, unconditionally of the performance., and i know it sounds cheesy, because I love Notre Dame, I'm on board, are you guys?

 

[kicker20]

A little boy and his dad

A little boy and his dad

During the first 5 games of the 1997 season, things were not look golden to say the least. We had just got beat badly by Michigan State on Sat. and every player was fearing the amount of gassers we would be running as our penance. Needless to say, practice was long, hard, and as a team we felt lost. Then after practice on the way to the locker room, the usually crowd of people to get autographs was down to 2 people. A father and his 5 year old sign. The sign read " We Still Believe". Every player who saw the sign had a long quite walk to the locker room that day, and there were not many dry eyes inside. This father and son helped reminded a lost team the true meaning of Notre Dame. That day, we came together as a team, beat LSU in LSU the last game of the year and we earn a birth in the Independence Bowl. It wasn't.t the BCS, but it meant a lot to our players and coaches to say the least.

 

[chyrspchuck]

This program has been mediocre on the whole for 15 years. Any other school in the country probably would have lost its fans by now. But as long as there is mismanagement of the football program by the powers that be and the coaching staff, there is going to be division among the fans. I will never stop supporting this football team or the university that I love so much - but I will not support it blindly nor will I do it in the face of clear mismanagement. The players have the undivided loyalty of the fans...the coaching staff, AD, BOT, etc does not and nor should they.

didn't mean to rep you mooneytostle.......meant to rep kicker.....your ass is lame, i wouldn't rep you. mismanagement? no, more like a growing pain. everybody has them. Remember when Miami was awesome, Remember when Nebraska, Florida State. Teams have their ups and downs, but some Notre Dame fans, like yourself just don't understand it. God I wish I was your boss so I could criticize your piss poor work habits as a janitor. I assume your janitorial duties are as piss poor as your commentary. I want a personal apology in 12 months when we reel off 11 wins.....

 

[kicker20]

This program has been mediocre on the whole for 15 years. Any other school in the country probably would have lost its fans by now. But as long as there is mismanagement of the football program by the powers that be and the coaching staff, there is going to be division among the fans. I will never stop supporting this football team or the university that I love so much - but I will not support it blindly nor will I do it in the face of clear mismanagement. The players have the undivided loyalty of the fans...the coaching staff, AD, BOT, etc does not and nor should they.

While I understand your point of frustration, you must also say that none of your grievances lie with the players. The are like our troops over seas, they both didn't have a choice of their Generals or Administration, but as long as they are out on the Field of battle or football giving 100% of everything they have, they both deserve your unconditional support. The players don't choses their coaches, schedule, or plays, but I promise they do their best to execute them the best way they know how.

 

[mooneytostle]

While I understand your point of frustration, you must also say that none of your grievances lie with the players. The are like our troops over seas, they both didn't have a choice of their Generals or Administration, but as long as they are out on the Field of battle or football giving 100% of everything they have, they both deserve your unconditional support. The players don't choses their coaches, schedule, or plays, but I promise they do their best to execute them the best way they know how.

Where and when did I say that I didn't support the players? Where did I say that I have "grievances" with the players?

 

[Irishlew]

As a former player, I or any other player would never say we lost due to the fair weather fans, and the lack of their support during good or bad times. The players that dawn the blue and gold week in and week out don't look for excuses, they look to improve every week. The last people they would ever blame their failures on are the fans. Words can't express the first time I walked into a peep rally, or saw the whole student section stand during game time. I will never doubt your loyalty, just the manner in which some people choose to display it.

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[mooneytostle]

didn't mean to rep you mooneytostle.......meant to rep kicker.....your ass is lame, i wouldn't rep you. mismanagement? no, more like a growing pain. everybody has them. Remember when Miami was awesome, Remember when Nebraska, Florida State. Teams have their ups and downs, but some Notre Dame fans, like yourself just don't understand it. God I wish I was your boss so I could criticize your piss poor work habits as a janitor. I assume your janitorial duties are as piss poor as your commentary. I want a personal apology in 12 months when we reel off 11 wins.....

If you honestly believe that over the past 15 years this football program has not been mismanaged you are so naive it is not even worth arguing my point with you. Forcing out Holtz. Davie. O'Leary. Willingham. Weis. The administration under Malloy and Wadsworth changed the status quo of the football program. A claim otherwise is futile and stupid and proves your ignorance.

Do you really think what has happened to Notre Dame is a typical "down" of a team experiencing an "up and down?" You think what is going on at Notre Dame is comparable to a few years of mediocre play on the field at Florida State? What a joke.

As for the personal attack - I suppose it would be foolish to expect more from someone with such a juvenile outlook.

I don't need to prove my loyalty to my alma mater or the football program I have supported every saturday since I was a small boy - and certainly not to the likes of you. I, as everyone else on this board, would love for the team to win 11 games next year and will support the team and the players every step of the way, as I always have - but its not going to happen and its because they aren't properly coached. At some point you have to stop blindly wishing we will be good and realize what it will actually take to put this program back where it belongs.

 

[Irishlew]

While I understand your point of frustration, you must also say that none of your grievances lie with the players. The are like our troops over seas, they both didn't have a choice of their Generals or Administration, but as long as they are out on the Field of battle or football giving 100% of everything they have, they both deserve your unconditional support. The players don't choses their coaches, schedule, or plays, but I promise they do their best to execute them the best way they know how.

two of the dumbest quotes i have ever heard on here.

1) comparing students who play a children's game and will walk away with a degree from ND to our troops who are dying for our freedom.

2) how don't they have a choice for who they play for? i can think of 100 D1 schools who would love to have Cierre Wood. He CHOSE to come to ND.

 

[kicker20]

If you honestly believe that over the past 15 years this football program has not been mismanaged you are so naive it is not even worth arguing my point with you. Forcing out Holtz. Davie. O'Leary. Willingham. Weis. The administration under Malloy and Wadsworth changed the status quo of the football program. A claim otherwise is futile and stupid and proves your ignorance.

Do you really think what has happened to Notre Dame is a typical "down" of a team experiencing an "up and down?" You think what is going on at Notre Dame is comparable to a few years of mediocre play on the field at Florida State? What a joke.

As for the personal attack - I suppose it would be foolish to expect more from someone with such a juvenile outlook.

I don't need to prove my loyalty to my alma mater or the football program I have supported every Saturday since I was a small boy - and certainly not to the likes of you. I, as everyone else on this board, would love for the team to win 11 games next year and will support the team and the players every step of the way, as I always have - but its not going to happen and its because they aren't properly coached. At some point you have to stop blindly wishing we will be good and realize what it will actually take to put this program back where it belongs.

I think it is obvious, that no matter the argument that is made, you are just going to access blame to different parts of our program. You said in your comment that our players aren't,t properly coached. Has it ever occurred to you that some recruits reach their peak in high school, and regardless of the coaching, weightlifting, running, that former parade all-American is not going to start at Notre Dame.So if I understand you, the players are great, it's our coaches who are failing. I would also love to hear your years of coaching experience, that allows you to say our coaches are not up to par. What a shame it is if you are the #1 Notre Dame Fan and critic.

 

[phgreek]

Being a former player for Holtz and Davie from 1995-99, Coach Holtz had 2 words he felt vital to winning a close game, " Don't Flinch". I believe in this demeanor 100%, but it has been very clear that many of the Notre Dame football fans Flinch way too much and often. Whether it concerns Coach Weis, Brandon walker, or Jimmy Clausen. This type of attitude will only divide a looker room and the fan base. I really hope in the very near future, this way of thinking will change, and the fan base will unite under good or bad situations. Trust me, the players will only grow stronger by the undivided loyalty of the Notre Dame football program.
Kevin Kopka #20

Kevin,

I always love reading the players' perspective. You see and hear things most of us only wish we could. Your experience gives you perspective and understanding of this program that is well beyond what we could put together over our entire lives.

Most of us have to go by the product on the field...this is not any resemblance to the football of your days....and I wander...

How are the other guys from your days taking this...I saw some things Aaron Taylor wrote(a little before your time)...and while always respectful, he too was critical...can we say Aaron Flinched. While he is more credible...many of the same criticisms he made are echoed herein. There are others...wouldn't say they flinched...would say they are passionate.

I don't want to be critical of your post...because there is some truth to it...but I also think there is room for criticism without being tagged a fair weather fan.

 

[Dizzyphil]

Kicker,

I have to agree with both Irishlew and Mooneytostle. Your comparisons with our armed forces and being able to choose your coach is a bit on the crazy quote side. You might as well say, "I didn't get to choose my parents is why I ended up this way??!!!" Mooneytoostle and I have banged heads on a couple of arguements but, it is our passion for the Irish and the hunger for wins that bring it out. I didn't see in any of the replies to your post here where Mooneytoostle said anything negative about the kids out there running the plays that are sent in. You have to realize something that I don't think you are; what worked with Samardzija and Quinn does not mean it will work with JC and Tate... and it hasn't or any other of the combination of receivers. It is CW's job to realize this, adjust, re-scheme then create something that will. He hasn't, he keeps trying the same freakin screen play hoping it will work.

Ok, I'm off

Dizzy

 

[mooneytostle]

I think it is obvious, that no matter the argument that is made, you are just going to access blame to different parts of our program. You said in your comment that our players aren't,t properly coached. Has it ever occurred to you that some recruits reach their peak in high school, and regardless of the coaching, weightlifting, running, that former parade all-American is not going to start at Notre Dame.So if I understand you, the players are great, it's our coaches who are failing. I would also love to hear your years of coaching experience, that allows you to say our coaches are not up to par. What a shame it is if you are the #1 Notre Dame Fan and critic.

Notre Dame ran for 43 yards on the ground against Syracuse in the 11th game of CW's fourth season with offensive lineman and running backs recruited by all the other top programs in the country. please defend this.

 

[Irishlew]

Notre Dame ran for 43 yards on the ground against Syracuse in the 11th game of CW's fourth season with offensive lineman and running backs recruited by all the other top programs in the country. please defend this.

he'll try, but i doubt we'll be able to understand all the nonsense.

 

[ARALOU]

Starting to a trend.

Starting to a trend.

First of all, I am not criticizing any fan. I am just making an observation and it is a general one, at that. It appears that "all" fans are disappointed with the teams performance and progress. Whatever the reason. You have some alumni that are from the fire Charlie camp, he cant do it. You have some alumni that are saying that the character of the players is important and we have to be patient to rebuild. We should give it some time (next year). The non-alum fans have the same divided views.

One thing that I have noticed also is the younger age group fans seem to be more impatient (as a general rule not everyone). I think that the younger fan feeling that way is justifiable. The older fan or alum has possibly seen the better teams in the past and has some positive memories to recall. The younger fan, say from 26 years old and younger has no championship memories. Just maybe the 93 season and possibly vague memories of the 88 team. I am not saying we should live in the past but I offer this thought so we might better understand the dynamics and age diversity of the ND fan. I stress that this may not apply to everyone regardless of age but it is something to think about.


I say this because I had a conversation last night with a 22 year old Irish fan. The first thing he said was that he did not have many recollections of the great Irish teams of the late 80s and early 90s. He was a fan because his family had Irish graduates and he was catholic. He also said he had uncles that were Purdue alumni as well as ND. It made for memorable holidays. What really got my attention was something he said, "Notre Dame has not been a premier power in my adult life. I dont remember when they were but I am a fan because of the legend that was told to me by family." After that I he said that I had an objective and positive attitude because I had lived through times that have seen a decline and re-emergence of Irish football. It made sense to me. Just because some are critical and some are not it does not mean that either is any less of a fan. They just have different experiences with Irish football.

Feel free to debate this but if I get called crazy or stupid, I will find you.

 

[Irishlew]

you're Crazy...i live in Portage, Indiana

j/k

nice post.

 

[kicker20]

two of the dumbest quotes i have ever heard on here.

1) comparing students who play a children's game and will walk away with a degree from ND to our troops who are dying for our freedom.

2) how don't they have a choice for who they play for? i can think of 100 D1 schools who would love to have Cierre Wood. He CHOSE to come to ND.

While I in no way meant to compare the horrors of war with football. In one aspect you are mistaken, college football is not a children's game, it is a business. I know many former players like myself who's football career has left them permanently disabled, in pain, with post concussion syndrome etc.. I myself have undergone 18 right leg operations after playing on a torn leg for 3 years. My leg is now permanently fused, and I have contracted a chronic MRSA Staff Infection in that leg as well. This is leading to severe muscular atrophy, osteoporosis, and a degenerative nerve disorder that will have me enrolled in a palliative care program in January. I will suffer in agony and pain for the remainder of my life, but I still Love, Respect, and Cherish every player I was privileged enough to share the field with for over 3 years.

 

[scoutgod]

you're Crazy...i live in Portage, Indiana

j/k

nice post.

wow, my jeep broke down in Portage, Indiana when I was driving across country in 1990. Nice fella at a Shell Station took care of me. I ate at a Mexican rest..... (Tiajuana's? I think it was called)..... "Ate" means "drank"

... but the most memorable thing was watching the news saying that the cheif of police in Gary was being arrested for selling drugs.

 

[kicker20]

Notre Dame ran for 43 yards on the ground against Syracuse in the 11th game of CW's fourth season with offensive lineman and running backs recruited by all the other top programs in the country. please defend this.

Yes, we rushed for 43 yards against Syracuse. You can chalk this up to the fact we didn't dominate the line of scrimmage, we have a young o-line, the backs didn't hit the holes, we didn't,t set up the run with play action pass, etc... The bottom line is they came in to ND like it was their biggest game of the year. This is the same attitude most teams take when they play in the historic Notre Dame Stadium. That day Syracuse made a plan to stop the run and force the pass. Make our team 1 dimensional, and it worked. My very first home game in 1995 was against Northwestern, we lost 16-13. No one thought in a million years we would lose, but we did, and they went 10-1 to the Rose Bowl. These things happen, thats why you play the game. The only problem that occurs is when you walk out on to the field and expect to win because we are Notre Dame.

 

[kicker20]

Kevin,

I always love reading the players' perspective. You see and hear things most of us only wish we could. Your experience gives you perspective and understanding of this program that is well beyond what we could put together over our entire lives.

Most of us have to go by the product on the field...this is not any resemblance to the football of your days....and I wander...

How are the other guys from your days taking this...I saw some things Aaron Taylor wrote(a little before your time)...and while always respectful, he too was critical...can we say Aaron Flinched. While he is more credible...many of the same criticisms he made are echoed herein. There are others...wouldn't say they flinched...would say they are passionate.

I don't want to be critical of your post...because there is some truth to it...but I also think there is room for criticism without being tagged a fair weather fan.

99.9% of the Notre dame Fans are the most loyal, compassionate, fans any player, and that includes me could ever hope for. The fair weather fans comment was for those who asses unfair blame during adverse time, and are the first to praise the same people during success. I in know way meant to offend any fan, alumni, or reader, by my comment. I have always considered myself to be blessed to have the chance to represent such a great University, Alumni, and of course fan base. Without all of you, Notre Dame Would not have the magic and mastic that you bring week in and week out, regardless of our record, and for that I will forever be thankful.
Sincerely,
Kevin Kopka #20 1995-99

 

[ARALOU]

you're Crazy...i live in Portage, Indiana

LOL, hell thats punishment enough. Besides, it would be too hard to look for ya in ass deep snow.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Great posts kicker20. Thanks (and your comparison to troops overseas is not so offensive -to me at least, it is just a comparison - just words. But an understandable comparison because ND football players actually do put their lives and futures on the line with every single play...)

And any DI school will circle the date with ND on their calendars, especially schools like Syracuse. "Hey Mom, we gonna be on National TV!" Anyone read the comment of the BC dude who said it doesn't matter what ND's record is, it will always be the most important game (or something like that...)

Funny to read great posters disagree. Choir bitching to choir.

Forum needs to admit trollers. Lets us bitch at an enemy instead of ourselves.

Aralou's post is a great point. We all fans but staring at the elephant from a different perspective. (No CW jokes please...)

 

[mooneytostle]

Yes, we rushed for 43 yards against Syracuse. You can chalk this up to the fact we didn't dominate the line of scrimmage, we have a young o-line, the backs didn't hit the holes, we didn't,t set up the run with play action pass, etc... The bottom line is they came in to ND like it was their biggest game of the year. This is the same attitude most teams take when they play in the historic Notre Dame Stadium. That day Syracuse made a plan to stop the run and force the pass. Make our team 1 dimensional, and it worked. My very first home game in 1995 was against Northwestern, we lost 16-13. No one thought in a million years we would lose, but we did, and they went 10-1 to the Rose Bowl. These things happen, thats why you play the game. The only problem that occurs is when you walk out on to the field and expect to win because we are Notre Dame.

actually - Notre Dame had never lost to a team with 8 losses before (Syracuse went on to lose their next game and finish 3-9) - so no, "these things" don't happen - they had never happened before. Losing to a 10-1 Northwestern team, regardless of how good people thought they were at the time is one thing, losing to a proven terrible team at the end of the year at home is unacceptable. Losing 15 games (another ND first) in two seasons is unacceptable. I don't need an explanation of why Notre Dame ran for 43 yards - no one does. We all saw it and we've been witnessing that same kind of play for 2 years now (and the running game in 2006 was average at best).

I am well aware that Notre Dame is going to get the opposition's best effort every Saturday. This has been true every year, every game, since Rockne was the coach. We've never made an excuse for it before, why would you start now?

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I am well aware that Notre Dame is going to get the opposition's best effort every Saturday. This has been true every year, every game, since Rockne was the coach. We've never made an excuse for it before, why would you start now?

Good point.

But I have made it clear (to myself at least) that ND has accepted a rebuilding, and it is my perception that it will take two more years. I don't like CW's offense at all, even after the first six games of his tenure, and I personally am not making excuses for the team.

They are young. That not an excuse. That is a fact.

It takes time to build depth.

 

[kicker20]

no excuses

no excuses

actually - Notre Dame had never lost to a team with 8 losses before (Syracuse went on to lose their next game and finish 3-9) - so no, "these things" don't happen - they had never happened before. Losing to a 10-1 Northwestern team, regardless of how good people thought they were at the time is one thing, losing to a proven terrible team at the end of the year at home is unacceptable. Losing 15 games (another ND first) in two seasons is unacceptable. I don't need an explanation of why Notre Dame ran for 43 yards - no one does. We all saw it and we've been witnessing that same kind of play for 2 years now (and the running game in 2006 was average at best).

I am well aware that Notre Dame is going to get the opposition's best effort every Saturday. This has been true every year, every game, since Rockne was the coach. We've never made an excuse for it before, why would you start now?

It is very obvious that we come from to very different schools of thought. NEVER WILL YOU HEAR MYSELF, OR ANY OTHER FORMER NOTRE DAME PLAYER MAKE AN EXCUSE WHEN WE LOSE, REGARDLESS IF WE LOST 2 GAMES, OR 15 IN THE PAST 2 SEASONS. THAT WILL BE SAID IS WE WILL DO EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER TO GET BETTER. THAT IS WHAT NOTRE DAME TEACHES. Excuses are for those who don't have the COURAGE to WIN!!!