Pat Forde's 40 Yard Dash - Irish Edition

[dre1919]

Mr. Forde touches on something I've mentioned on the forums here before. If we lose to USC this weekend, then Charlie Weis' tenure will mirror Ty Willingham's in winning percentage, quality wins and bowl victories. Ty was fired for that...will Charlie be? While I don't consider Pat Forde a great sports writer by any stretch of the imagination, he is right. If Ty was fired for mediocre results, then we should expect the same treatment for Charlie given their similar lack of success. It's a bad situation all around because it probably means that either A. Notre Dame has to be embarrassed and say "We made a mistake" in hiring Charlie Weis as well as giving him a ridiculous contract extension before anything real was proven on the field. Or, B. Notre Dame has to be embarrassed because if they do not fire Charlie at this juncture, they're opening themselves up for ridicule on the basis of "If it wasn't for mediocrity, then why was Ty Willingham really fired?"

With Charlie's struggles, and the University's knee jerk reaction to give him the huge contract extension without much reason (or at least reason enough to explain why Ty didn't get one after a similar start), Notre Dame is in a precarious position. Sure, Charlie is a much, much better recruiter...but with the program nosediving the past two seasons, and even falling to Navy (something even Ty didn't screw up), how can we justify keeping CW on just that basis alone? I believe the only way out of this situation is to treat Weis just as Willingham was. You didn't produce on the field so we let you go. Now, it does enter us into a "cycle" of hiring and firing coaches after a relatively short period to prove themselves, but at least it doesn't get us labeled as racist or stubbornly tied to a clearly failed coaching regime. I believe we have no choice because Charlie (and ultimately, the University with how Ty was handled) hasn't given us one.

Discuss.

 

[irishfan1122]

Yea, I just read Forde's article. I completely agree. Charlie will get shit canned to save face. No offense to Charlie, but I am not going to feel sorry a guy who makes millions.

 

[SoCalDomer]

well, the people who want to throw around the racist label are going to do it whether justified or not. there are people who just make their living off sensational and irrational public comments.

the people who want to bash ND are going to do that regardless too. (and I'm not saying everyone who is critical of ND is necessarily bashing).

But firing someone just for consistencies sake isn't right, if that decision was a bad decision.

First, decide what the reasons for firing Willingham were and if those reasons make his firing justified Second, decide if the timing of Willingham's firing was good.

I believe the reasons they fired Willingham have been discussed, and it goes way beyond winning percentage. Now, I think they may have set a bad precedent in firing Willingham from the timing aspect. On the one hand, he could have further decimated recruiting, but on the other it set a terrible precedent which is now coming back and slapping them in the face.

I don't believe Weis meets all the same reasons for firing Willingham. Plus, if we agree the timing might have set a terrible precedent, then firing Weis just to be consistent with a prior bad decision is a just an even worse bad decision.

But keeping Weis just because of this feeling that coaches should be able to finish a season with a team full of their own recruits may also be a bad decision, if the program ends up worse by keeping him.

I hope everyone sees keeping or firing Weis is not as easy a decision as you think. One choice has certain consequences, the other different consequences.

Simply doing what you did before to be consistent is neither logical nor right. They need to make the right decision in this case, and accept whatever flack comes with it.

 

[mick2]

well, the people who want to throw around the racist label are going to do it whether justified or not. there are people who just make their living off sensational and irrational public comments.

the people who want to bash ND are going to do that regardless too. (and I'm not saying everyone who is critical of ND is necessarily bashing).

But firing someone just for consistencies sake isn't right, if that decision was a bad decision.

First, decide what the reasons for firing Willingham were and if those reasons make his firing justified Second, decide if the timing of Willingham's firing was good.

I believe the reasons they fired Willingham have been discussed, and it goes way beyond winning percentage. Now, I think they may have set a bad precedent in firing Willingham from the timing aspect. On the one hand, he could have further decimated recruiting, but on the other it set a terrible precedent which is now coming back and slapping them in the face.

I don't believe Weis meets all the same reasons for firing Willingham. Plus, if we agree the timing might have set a terrible precedent, then firing Weis just to be consistent with a prior bad decision is a just an even worse bad decision.

Yes. I agree,

If Charlie is fired this season it will be a complete an utter shock to me, next year is judgment year for him and we all knew that coming into this season.

I guess its getting pretty bad in SB, but from what i've heard about weis from former players such as matt shelton and Dj fitzpatrick(who played for willingham too) he is a great coach, and they said we just have to stick by him.

its always Darkest before the Dawn. ND will be Back and Charlie will lead us there.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Yes. I agree,

If Charlie is fired this season it will be a complete an utter shock to me, next year is judgment year for him and we all knew that coming into this season.

I guess its getting pretty bad in SB, but from what i've heard about weis from former players such as matt shelton and Dj fitzpatrick(who played for willingham too) he is a great coach, and they said we just have to stick by him.

its always Darkest before the Dawn. ND will be Back and Charlie will lead us there.

I'm hoping you're right mick2. SoCal brought up some great points as well, esp about firing someone for consistency's sake. I don't see us firing Weis yet, as you said, next year we all said would be judgment year. But I can't argue with people anymore that say we've seen enough to properly judge CW. I just can't do it. I can lie to non ND fans, but to true Domers, I have to be honest: I just can't defend CW anymore the way I used to. The Syracuse loss and tate's comments are very telling.

But like I said, I hope you're right. I'm giving him another year, whether I sound stupid doing it or not. I can't ignore his recruiting prowess, and I still remember what he did with upperclassmen before. Here's to hoping (praying???) that he can do it again...

 

[irishfan1122]

let's just say it's probably a good thing I am not the AD. Like I have said before: Which is worse? Losing on the field or worrying about losing recruits who haven't participated in a practice yet? I am sick and tired of losing DAMNIT

 

[irishfan1122]

Yes. I agree,

If Charlie is fired this season it will be a complete an utter shock to me, next year is judgment year for him and we all knew that coming into this season.

I guess its getting pretty bad in SB, but from what i've heard about weis from former players such as matt shelton and Dj fitzpatrick(who played for willingham too) he is a great coach, and they said we just have to stick by him.

its always Darkest before the Dawn. ND will be Back and Charlie will lead us there.

No offense to Matt Shelton or DJ but they played on an average team with a Great quarterback. Frankly, I could give two shits what DJ Fitzpatrick says, he's a kicker.

 

[mick2]

I'm hoping you're right mick2. SoCal brought up some great points as well, esp about firing someone for consistency's sake. I don't see us firing Weis yet, as you said, next year we all said would be judgment year. But I can't argue with people anymore that say we've seen enough to properly judge CW. I just can't do it. I can lie to non ND fans, but to true Domers, I have to be honest: I just can't defend CW anymore the way I used to. The Syracuse loss and tate's comments are very telling.

But like I said, I hope you're right. I'm giving him another year, whether I sound stupid doing it or not. I can't ignore his recruiting prowess, and I still remember what he did with upperclassmen before. Here's to hoping (praying???) that he can do it again...

whether it be charlie or some other guy this team will be good. talent and experience trumps all.

I'm hoping its charlie.

 

[irishfan1122]

whether it be charlie or some other guy this team will be good. talent and experience trumps all.

I'm hoping its charlie.

That's the biggest load of shit I have ever heard in my life.

 

[SoCalDomer]

That's the biggest load of shit I have ever heard in my life.

try explaining your criticisms of people's posts rather than just calling what they wrote the biggest load of crap.

 

[mick2]

No offense to Matt Shelton or DJ but they played on an average team with a Great quarterback. Frankly, I could give two shits what DJ Fitzpatrick says, he's a kicker.

bet you wouldnt say that to his face hes a pretty big kid and he'd probably kick your ass.

frankly i don't give two shits about what you have to say because you werent in the locker room, they were.

and they said it was night and day when it came to football knowledge between willingham and weis, shelton said willingham was showing him things that he already learned in high school!!

 

[irishfan1122]

try explaining your criticisms of people's posts rather than just calling what they wrote the biggest load of crap.

It's a message board, not a court room. If he wants to throw out accusations saying talent and experience trump all without evidence, then I can call it a load of shit without evidence.

 

[mick2]

That's the biggest load of shit I have ever heard in my life.

who are you?!!? why don't you make a valid point instead of belittling peoples posts?

 

[irishfan1122]

bet you wouldnt say that to his face hes a pretty big kid and he'd probably kick your ass.

frankly i don't give two shits about what you have to say because you werent in the locker room, they were.

and they said it was night and day when it came to football knowledge between willingham and weis, shelton said willingham was showing him things that he already learned in high school!!

I'd be more than happy to say it to his face. The man kicked field goals, let's not act like he was thoroughly involved in schemes. We all know Weis is extremely knowledgeable in football, but you have to be able to transfer that knowledge to players. We have all had brilliant teachers and professors. Sometimes the best ones aren't always the most knowledgeable.

 

[mick2]

I'd be more than happy to say it to his face. The man kicked field goals, let's not act like he was thoroughly involved in schemes. We all know Weis is extremely knowledgeable in football, but you have to be able to transfer that knowledge to players. We have all had brilliant teachers and professors. Sometimes the best ones aren't always the most knowledgeable.

ok, my bad your right, you probably know more than former players.

 

[irishfan1122]

ok, my bad your right, you probably know more than former players.

Ok Mr. Talent and Experience trump all. If that was the case Notre Dame wouldn't have lost to Syracuse this year or Navy last year. Villanova would never have won championship as a mediocre seed. George Mason wouldn't make it to the final four. Boise St would never beat Oklahoma in the Fiesta Bowl. Appie St would never beat Michigan. Stanford would never beat USC.

 

[KAPLAN]

After Ty's stay at Washington it has been proved that he is not a good coach and getting rid of him was the smartest thing for us to do. Same with Bob Davie, who has not coached a thing since ND.

 

[mick2]

Ok Mr. Talent and Experience trump all. If that was the case Notre Dame wouldn't have lost to Syracuse this year or Navy last year. Villanova would never have won championship as a mediocre seed. George Mason wouldn't make it to the final four. Boise St would never beat Oklahoma in the Fiesta Bowl. Appie St would never beat Michigan. Stanford would never beat USC.

We have almost no experience.

there is no excuse for losing to syracuse, and there is always exceptions to the rule in anything, but that is not usually the norm. once this team is juniors and seniors you'll see what im talking about.

 

[irishfan1122]

After Ty's stay at Washington it has been proved that he is not a good coach and getting rid of him was the smartest thing for us to do. Same with Bob Davie, who has not coached a thing since ND.

exactly

 

[irishfan1122]

We have almost no experience.

there is no excuse for losing to syracuse, and there is always exceptions to the rule in anything, but that is not usually the norm. once this team is juniors and seniors you'll see what im talking about.

Come on, they have played nearly 2 years together. That excuse just doesn't fly anymore. Can we just admit that they are underachievers at this point?

 

[mick2]

what were brady quinns first two years like?

under acheiving at best.

its not an excuse its just the way it is.

 

[Bubba]

I didn't read Forde's article and probably won't. But....

I agree with SoCal. You can't just fire Weis to avoid being labeled by the media and whoever else would like to jump on it. Worrying about what people say about you is a complete waste of thought. And, if you keep doing what you have done in the past, you shouldn't expect a different result. I don't have complete confidence in Charlie at this point, but I think you need to give him one more year. If at the beginning of the year you can see that progress isn't being made, then formulate a plan to bring the best possible candidate in to coach this team.

 

[dre1919]

I think Willingham was overrated because his Stanford teams averaged 35 points per game and he took them to the Rose Bowl. People also overlooked the fact his teams had a nasty habit of nose diving. I truly do not believe his firing was racially motivated...I think that's too easy of a cop out for people to dredge up. However, I do think his firing had everything to do with just being exposed as a mediocre coach. Notre Dame cannot afford to have a mediocre coach...not with the publicity, the history and the expectations from fans and alumni.

Now, this is the problem facing us currently. It's been proven through results that even with better talent, Weis is a mediocre coach. He had top flight talent at a few spots (namely, QB and WR) with Willingham's Juniors and Seniors yet still managed to lose bowl games just like his predecessors. He's been out couched by some of the best (like Carroll) and some of the worst (like Robinson). Even though he can recruit well, he hasn't been able to make that talent perform at it's highest level yet.

Sure, giving him time would be great. But, since what he has done to this point hasn't made anyone say "Wow!", why waste the time? Sure, the program will take a step back because of the transition and me may lose some commits. To me, it's all about securing a real, true, top flight head coach that has proven himself somewhere else already. Someone that can step in and because of his resume we can say "We can give him all the time he needs because look at what he has on his resume." People can argue that Weis has four Super Bowl rings and that should be impressive. Well, for one, the Patriots as an organization gave him those four rings. Yes, he was an integral part, but the victories came in larger part to Belichek and Brady, as well as Robert Kraft and Scott Pioli than Weis' play calling. He didn't suck, but it's not like we're comparing Weis' resume to someone like Carroll who has big college wins and a national championship. Someone like him, or Saban, or even Phillip Fulmer have been to the top of the mountain and know what it takes to get there. They have coached at the head coach level in CFB and came away better than anyone else at least once. That's the type of man we need leading this team.

The point here is though, it's a public relations nightmare if we keep Charlie with no real reason when we didn't keep Ty. From the outside looking in, it makes Notre Dame look bad.

 

[sportallyr]

I agree that Weis needs one more year. If the school decides not to give it to him, instead of going outside for a new head coach, I'd rather they promote Corwin Brown to head coach, make Tenuta the defensive coordinator and hire a big time offensive coordinator. I still hope that they give Charlie another year, but this would be my preference should they fire him.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Ok Mr. Talent and Experience trump all. If that was the case Notre Dame wouldn't have lost to Syracuse this year or Navy last year. Villanova would never have won championship as a mediocre seed. George Mason wouldn't make it to the final four. Boise St would never beat Oklahoma in the Fiesta Bowl. Appie St would never beat Michigan. Stanford would never beat USC.

And when George Mason got to the Final Four, they got hammered by a more talented team. That same Stanford team lost to US last year of all teams. There are exceptions to every rule, but unfortunately, talent and experience usually do win out over well coached teams.

There's an old saying that everyone has heard, but it's true: You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. I don't care how great of a coach you are, you need talent to win. Period. Was Saban a bad coach last year? He went 6-6 and lost to Monroe from Too Close For Comfort for Christ's sake (or was it Lousiana-Monroe?). This year they are #1 in the nation. What, did he just now remember how to coach? Of course not. Now, his QB is more experienced, the whole team is more experienced, and he has a boatload of stud freshmen and Juco's that have infused even more talent into a team that was already talented. Or look at UCLA basketball right now. Howland is a witch of a coach. But he's playing 5 freshmen, and they're going to struggle because of it.

Now, this is not to excuse CW or anything like that. That debate has been talked about to death and it's barely Tuesday. My point is that for you to say that Mick2 is full of shit because he says that talent and experience trump all is ignorant. You want to have it all, talent, experience and coaching; that's how you get NC's. You can have great coaching and not enough talent and you're going to lose a lot more than you think. And you can have great talent and horrible coaching and lose (i.e. Miami). But you can have great talent, and experience, and mediocre coaching, and still win. By that time the seniors can help a lot where the coaching faulters. Hell, just look at the Celtics last year, when they hammered my Lakers...

 

[Rocket's Rocket Fan]

This is why it think CW sould get one more year. I've seen some people bring up Quinn's 2nd year at ND. So I decided to look it up and look at his stats aganst Clausen's.


PASSING GP Effic Att-Cmp-Int Pct Yds TD Lng Avg/G
---------------------------------------------------------------
Quinn 12 125.87 353-191-10 54.1 2586 17 54 215.5

Clausen 11 127.63 392-235-15 59.9 2730 20 60 248.2


I think its safe to say that Jimmy is better than Brady at this time in his. Yes I see that we have thrown the ball more with Clausen but look at the efficentcy. They are almost the same. So my point is look at what Brady did in this third year, lets see what CW can do with Jimmy in his 3rd year.

 

[Bubba]

I agree that Weis needs one more year. If the school decides not to give it to him, instead of going outside for a new head coach, I'd rather they promote Corwin Brown to head coach, make Tenuta the defensive coordinator and hire a big time offensive coordinator. I still hope that they give Charlie another year, but this would be my preference should they fire him.

This might not be a bad idea if they do give Weis another year. If, within the first 3-4 games, it is obvious that this team has not improved promoting Brown wouldn't be a bad otion as an interim coach. If he proves he can get more out of these players maybe he stays on? But, if they can Charlie at the end of this season I'd rather see them try to go after an elite coach. And, for the naysayers, I understand that nobody worth a damn wants to coach here so you don't need to fill me in on that one.

 

[irishfan1122]

And when George Mason got to the Final Four, they got hammered by a more talented team. That same Stanford team lost to US last year of all teams. There are exceptions to every rule, but unfortunately, talent and experience usually do win out over well coached teams.

There's an old saying that everyone has heard, but it's true: You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. I don't care how great of a coach you are, you need talent to win. Period. Was Saban a bad coach last year? He went 6-6 and lost to Monroe from Too Close For Comfort for Christ's sake (or was it Lousiana-Monroe?). This year they are #1 in the nation. What, did he just now remember how to coach? Of course not. Now, his QB is more experienced, the whole team is more experienced, and he has a boatload of stud freshmen and Juco's that have infused even more talent into a team that was already talented. Or look at UCLA basketball right now. Howland is a witch of a coach. But he's playing 5 freshmen, and they're going to struggle because of it.

Now, this is not to excuse CW or anything like that. That debate has been talked about to death and it's barely Tuesday. My point is that for you to say that Mick2 is full of shit because he says that talent and experience trump all is ignorant. You want to have it all, talent, experience and coaching; that's how you get NC's. You can have great coaching and not enough talent and you're going to lose a lot more than you think. And you can have great talent and horrible coaching and lose (i.e. Miami). But you can have great talent, and experience, and mediocre coaching, and still win. By that time the seniors can help a lot where the coaching faulters. Hell, just look at the Celtics last year, when they hammered my Lakers...

You're right. I forgot, George Mason had more experience and talent than Michigan St, North Carolina, Wichita St (Maybe), and Connecticut. Good point about Larry Coker. Last time I checked he actually won them a national championship. And for the record, when you say "TRUMP ALL" that usually means EVERYTHING NOT ASSOCIATED WITH TALENT OR EXPERIENCE. TRUMPING all would by a ROYAL FLUSH. TRUMPING occurs 100% of the time.

 

[Mr. McGibblets]

I posted something a few months back about me being a "realist." Then i completely went against my "realist" nature and basically ripped Weis and stated that he should be replaced for losing to Syracuse. While it might be a joke that they lost to them, their record should supports me being a "realist." i am not longer using quotation marks for realist-- too annoying to type. I debated with those who wanted to be optimistic and say they were going to go 11-1, 10-2, and maybe even 9-3. So why should i be angry that they are now 6-5. I thought they would be 8-4 or 7-5 at the end of the season. And a few breaks in ND's favor and they could have slightly over-achieved or been right on the mark of where I wanted them to be. And its funny that I bet all of those who are angry are the one's who felt the same way as me who thought they would have a slightly above average season and make a decent bowl. So maybe Weis shouldnt be fired. Its just brutal knowing that we are going to have to wait through another long off season of predictions and wondering and arguments among each other of how the team will do. We have to sit and wonder how this will affect recruiting. I think its just frustrating because as a fanbase we are have waited so long for a nice win and this is what is causing much anger about this past weekends loss. The bad thing about that home loss to Syracuse was that it was such a setback in the overall plan. There is zero to build on. A USC win would cure almost everything about this season. 7-5 sounds so much better than 6-6. While the playcalling seems strange at times and the team seems to lack any sort of swagger, I think I will take a step back and wait another 12 months to see where Weis will take ND as a team next year. Sticking to my realist roots, i must accept this average record of where I had them in my mind at the begining of the year. However, next years realist roots will be 10-2 or better so the program needs to shape up.

 

[Irish Legend]

I agree that Weis needs one more year. If the school decides not to give it to him, instead of going outside for a new head coach, I'd rather they promote Corwin Brown to head coach, make Tenuta the defensive coordinator and hire a big time offensive coordinator. I still hope that they give Charlie another year, but this would be my preference should they fire him.

Corwin Brown as head Coach? You are joking right? He needs to be let go too! Why he was hired is beyond me and same goes with that RB coach they promoted to OC! If Weis stays then I think Tenuta should be DC and everyone else has to go.