Problem with our team

MeanGreen

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This is rather long so please bare with me.
Before yesterdays game, we were thinking 7 - 5 and I thought really it was not a bad record. We were supposed to lose to MSU and really they out played us. UNC and Pitt were one play away from a victory. BC was, I have no idea,we just did not show up. I think a majority of people had those games as either a lose or a tough win for us when the season started. USC was always considered a lose. All of those teams have winning records and were in the hunt for the conference titles. Now comes the Syracuse game and after the game some deeper reflection. First let me say that whether it is on a fan board, talk radio, or throwing a snow ball no players or coaches deserve personal attacks. I thought it was terrible last year when people singled out Sullivan and I think it is terrible to personally attack JC, CW, BW or any player or coach. Say they played bad, but do not resort to name calling. The reports of snow balls being thrown at the game yesterday was sickening. What to the recruits that were there think of us after that. As Sam Wyche said long ago your not in Cleveland!!! Sorry BQ. Now for my list of problems with out team

1) Quicksand. You're playing and you think everything is going fine. Then one thing goes wrong. And then another. And another. You try to fight back, but the harder you fight, the deeper you sink. Until you can't move... you can't breathe... because you're in over your head. Like quicksand. Yes the Falco quote from the Replacements describes this team to a tee. UNC - second half INT, Pitt Personal Foul call, SU - bad snap on very make able FG. I think from the coaches to the players they are looking to make that one big play that gets everything back. It just does not happen.

2) No emotion. CW knows ND and the culture and everything that goes with it. He needs to learn that college football is played with emotion. He is used to those Pats teams he coached. They had no emotion. It was all business for them. Name me one emotional guy on those teams. The Giants teams he coached on had LT, Carson, Banks and a few others who had skill but increased that skill with emotion. We need Zorich and Aaron Taylor to join this staff just to get these guys emotionally into the game. Not since the USC game in 05, have I seen anything the looked like emotion from any one associated with this team.

3) Ara and Lou aren't coming back. Nope, they aren't. There is not a clone of them out there. I loved them both, still think they are the best, better than Bear, JoePa, McKay, any of their other peers. They could not win an NC with this team and probably would be 8 -3 maybe 9 - 2 with this team. CW should talk to them every day in-season and off-season. No disrespect to either of those gentlemen, but they were not given the program in such a state. Ty handed CW a wrecked car that needs lots of work. At the very least Faust gave Lou Tim Brown. We are still playing short handed. Texas, OU, TexTech, USC, and UF do not relay on the underclassmen we do. They play them and get great results, but from their linemen to the skill positions there is an upperclassmen to lead the way. Ara and Lou were at an advantage back in the day. If you were offered by ND, your parents thought great my kid will get a free education at a top notch university. They took the offer and did not worry about your playing time. They thought if you played well you might be a pro, but more than likely you will get a degree and have a better life. Today, every parent and every kid is think the Pros first, education later. Kids want to start as freshman and hopefully be gone after their sophomore year if not junior year. A kid would rather start at Boise, Kentucky, or Miami of Ohio than sit a year or too an ND.

4) No Coach is perfect. Many on other boards are wanting Leach, Stoops, Saban, Miles, or Meyer to be offered the job. First I do not think they would take it($$$$) and secondly not sure they could win here. Lastly they all have had bad games and or seasons. Miles almost lost to Troy and did lose to Ole Miss. Leach got taken to the wood shed last night ( maybe he can't win the big game, because that was the biggest he coached in, a lot was on the line). Stoops had some down years, Meyers want admissions concessions and Sabans looking for the next big contract. The only coach I know out there that supposedly has an ND clause is Hawkins at Colorado and after winning a Boise, he is not doing so while at Colorado. We can wish all we want but again I do not see us landing a big name like we did when we got Lou. Plus Lou had coached at a football school when he lead Arkansas to the Orange Bowl. They had a proud program back in the 60's and 70's. Luring a coach away from a big time program or even mid level might be more difficult today.

5) Don't say the team quit. I do not believe the team quit on CW. Nor did I believe they did that to Gerry. Unless you talked to a player and he said we just said hell with it do not say that. Because really you are saying that the players do not care about each other or Notre Dame.

None of this is meant to be a 100% endorsement of CW. He has issues. Being stubborn may work in the pros, it does not in college. He has two big things to learn in less than a year really. How to be a head coach and how to put emotion back in the football program. Look at the 1988 and 1993 teams, they won playing smart, tough, emotional, nasty football. Yesterday hurt, it hurt bad. More than any pounded we have taken recently from UM or USC. We need to rise above this as a program. Staff adjustment might be necessary. Philosophy might have to change. From a players stand point it appears as if the pieces to the puzzle are there, CW needs to put them together. I will be in his corner until the day the administration say he is no longer the man to lead us.
 

KamaraPolice

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I dont know what anyone could do here, big name or not. But I am 100% certain of what Charlie Weis CANT DO HERE. So what do you want?
 

MeanGreen

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Besides talent level find out what happen in 05 and 06 that has gone away in 07 and 08. Maybe BQ, JS, MS and gang had more passion then anyone associated with the team in the last two years.
 

kmoose

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I am 100% certain of what Charlie Weis CANT DO HERE.

And that means what, exactly? Are you some kind of football guru that we don't know about? Why should we be swayed by something *you* are 100% certain of, when our guts are telling us something different? Are you Bill Parcells or something?

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying that I am not convinced that NOW is the time to get rid of Weis. Then again, I wouldn't necessarily call it a bad decision, either. But here is the thing: If they are going to get rid of Weis, I want a plan. And not the "Tom Clements" plan, or the "Some guy who MIGHT be successful" plan. Right now, I just don't know who is out there, that fits that criteria. Despite what we may think, it IS possible that it could get worse.
 
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lags24

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I think you hit the nail on the head. Emotion is the key for this team I believe. They have talent now they just have to want to succeed and believe they can.
 

phgreek

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This is rather long so please bare with me.
Before yesterdays game, we were thinking 7 - 5 and I thought really it was not a bad record. We were supposed to lose to MSU and really they out played us. UNC and Pitt were one play away from a victory. BC was, I have no idea,we just did not show up. I think a majority of people had those games as either a lose or a tough win for us when the season started. USC was always considered a lose. All of those teams have winning records and were in the hunt for the conference titles. Now comes the Syracuse game and after the game some deeper reflection. First let me say that whether it is on a fan board, talk radio, or throwing a snow ball no players or coaches deserve personal attacks. I thought it was terrible last year when people singled out Sullivan and I think it is terrible to personally attack JC, CW, BW or any player or coach. Say they played bad, but do not resort to name calling. The reports of snow balls being thrown at the game yesterday was sickening. What to the recruits that were there think of us after that. As Sam Wyche said long ago your not in Cleveland!!! Sorry BQ. Now for my list of problems with out team

1) Quicksand. You're playing and you think everything is going fine. Then one thing goes wrong. And then another. And another. You try to fight back, but the harder you fight, the deeper you sink. Until you can't move... you can't breathe... because you're in over your head. Like quicksand. Yes the Falco quote from the Replacements describes this team to a tee. UNC - second half INT, Pitt Personal Foul call, SU - bad snap on very make able FG. I think from the coaches to the players they are looking to make that one big play that gets everything back. It just does not happen.

2) No emotion. CW knows ND and the culture and everything that goes with it. He needs to learn that college football is played with emotion. He is used to those Pats teams he coached. They had no emotion. It was all business for them. Name me one emotional guy on those teams. The Giants teams he coached on had LT, Carson, Banks and a few others who had skill but increased that skill with emotion. We need Zorich and Aaron Taylor to join this staff just to get these guys emotionally into the game. Not since the USC game in 05, have I seen anything the looked like emotion from any one associated with this team.

3) Ara and Lou aren't coming back. Nope, they aren't. There is not a clone of them out there. I loved them both, still think they are the best, better than Bear, JoePa, McKay, any of their other peers. They could not win an NC with this team and probably would be 8 -3 maybe 9 - 2 with this team. CW should talk to them every day in-season and off-season. No disrespect to either of those gentlemen, but they were not given the program in such a state. Ty handed CW a wrecked car that needs lots of work. At the very least Faust gave Lou Tim Brown. We are still playing short handed. Texas, OU, TexTech, USC, and UF do not relay on the underclassmen we do. They play them and get great results, but from their linemen to the skill positions there is an upperclassmen to lead the way. Ara and Lou were at an advantage back in the day. If you were offered by ND, your parents thought great my kid will get a free education at a top notch university. They took the offer and did not worry about your playing time. They thought if you played well you might be a pro, but more than likely you will get a degree and have a better life. Today, every parent and every kid is think the Pros first, education later. Kids want to start as freshman and hopefully be gone after their sophomore year if not junior year. A kid would rather start at Boise, Kentucky, or Miami of Ohio than sit a year or too an ND.

4) No Coach is perfect. Many on other boards are wanting Leach, Stoops, Saban, Miles, or Meyer to be offered the job. First I do not think they would take it($$$$) and secondly not sure they could win here. Lastly they all have had bad games and or seasons. Miles almost lost to Troy and did lose to Ole Miss. Leach got taken to the wood shed last night ( maybe he can't win the big game, because that was the biggest he coached in, a lot was on the line). Stoops had some down years, Meyers want admissions concessions and Sabans looking for the next big contract. The only coach I know out there that supposedly has an ND clause is Hawkins at Colorado and after winning a Boise, he is not doing so while at Colorado. We can wish all we want but again I do not see us landing a big name like we did when we got Lou. Plus Lou had coached at a football school when he lead Arkansas to the Orange Bowl. They had a proud program back in the 60's and 70's. Luring a coach away from a big time program or even mid level might be more difficult today.

5) Don't say the team quit. I do not believe the team quit on CW. Nor did I believe they did that to Gerry. Unless you talked to a player and he said we just said hell with it do not say that. Because really you are saying that the players do not care about each other or Notre Dame.

None of this is meant to be a 100% endorsement of CW. He has issues. Being stubborn may work in the pros, it does not in college. He has two big things to learn in less than a year really. How to be a head coach and how to put emotion back in the football program. Look at the 1988 and 1993 teams, they won playing smart, tough, emotional, nasty football. Yesterday hurt, it hurt bad. More than any pounded we have taken recently from UM or USC. We need to rise above this as a program. Staff adjustment might be necessary. Philosophy might have to change. From a players stand point it appears as if the pieces to the puzzle are there, CW needs to put them together. I will be in his corner until the day the administration say he is no longer the man to lead us.

I agree with most of what you say here. I think we all wish things were different.

That said many things would be different if ONE facet of the game would get some attention. Our O line is so dismal its rediculous. Armando Allen is a decent back, but good grief, the guy rarely reaches the LOS without getting popped. Guys two and three holes away make the play. We do not hold a block for more than a count (maybe), and many times d-lineman come unblocked...how can that be? I could go on and on and on...

The fact that JC is standing up more this year might be a statement...not sure. But think about our defense, and their play...they get nailed late in the 3rd and 4th...because they are stepping on their tongues most of the time...they spend way too much time on the field...particularly in the second half. Look, we make young team mistakes in all facets of the game, but in college footbal, if you have an O-line that can play at all, you can settle down, and re-take momentum/recover.

you could argue coaching or players...really, its both. As a player, regardless of the coaches you reach a point where you flat ass refuse to get beat anymore...not seeing it. Good kids, but our O-line are delicate Orchids who wilt pretty damned easily. That isn't age, thats personality and attitude...and unfortunately we have recruited how many years of this...it is now ann institutional problem that needs a bad ass to fix it.

As a coach, you need to hound these guys, press buttons, whatever it takes to get them to play...you need to scheme, but you also need to make sure your boys know there are a core set of plays THEY MUST EXECUTE FOR POSITIVE YARDS regardless of the situation, or there will be stadium stairs until death. YEA, its OK to punish them, and be so pissed in practice they put an R rating on the stadium entrance...And before any of you egg head X and O guys start with the preparation for the next team crap, Hows that Workin'... who the hell cares what the other team does...what the hell can we DO?

Latina has been horrific at teaching these guys, and demanding they perform. He also STINKS at making adjustments...kinda think thats residue from his failure to do the first two things. As you can see, there is no other part of the game that puts more stress on a team than poor offensive line play...Fix that, and things start to improve significantly.

And yea...we could use someone to put some beef on the D-line too, but not as serious a problem.

Charlie, of all people has to know the O-line is the Lynchpin to his Offense, and the great equalizer of all in-game events...The fact that Latina is still around tells me Cahrlie is completely out to lunch.

Charlie will be here next year...No way Latina survives this...when the AD looks back at this season, and if he has a clue about football at this level, he'll demand the change.

I agree with everyone who says it'd be hard to get someone to take this job, and Charlie can recruit (although the great snowball incident is bound to hurt that department). And yea, he couldn't motivate an Ididerod sled dog to eat a steak, but reality is...he's ours in '09. We need someone who can coach the Fatties up worse than any other single thing noted as a shortcoming in this program.

If Charlie gets Toppled...go get Bill Cowher...he's everything Charlie lacks...and he has at least one "ring of credibility", and some pull in JoePA's backyard.
 

phork

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No more NFL coaches please. Its almost certainly a failure waiting to happen.
 

mooneytostle

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If Charlie gets Toppled...go get Bill Cowher...he's everything Charlie lacks...and he has at least one "ring of credibility", and some pull in JoePA's backyard.

He's everything Charlie lacks...except for head coaching experience in college. No one knows if he could adjust and adapt to the vast differences between the NFL and college football. It is clear that Weis could not. Pete Carroll is the exception, not the rule.

At this point Notre Dame needs to focus on a candidate that has experience and success at a major college program. The list should be short and ND will have to sacrifice a lot to get Weis out and get said coach from list in. I'm not optimistic that anyone on such a list will want to come to Notre Dame right now. I feel we may be stuck with Weis for another year.
 

kmoose

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I agree with most of what you say here. I think we all wish things were different.

That said many things would be different if ONE facet of the game would get some attention. Our O line is so dismal its rediculous. Armando Allen is a decent back, but good grief, the guy rarely reaches the LOS without getting popped. Guys two and three holes away make the play. We do not hold a block for more than a count (maybe), and many times d-lineman come unblocked...how can that be? I could go on and on and on...

The fact that JC is standing up more this year might be a statement...not sure. But think about our defense, and their play...they get nailed late in the 3rd and 4th...because they are stepping on their tongues most of the time...they spend way too much time on the field...particularly in the second half. Look, we make young team mistakes in all facets of the game, but in college footbal, if you have an O-line that can play at all, you can settle down, and re-take momentum/recover.

you could argue coaching or players...really, its both. As a player, regardless of the coaches you reach a point where you flat ass refuse to get beat anymore...not seeing it. Good kids, but our O-line are delicate Orchids who wilt pretty damned easily. That isn't age, thats personality and attitude...and unfortunately we have recruited how many years of this...it is now ann institutional problem that needs a bad ass to fix it.

As a coach, you need to hound these guys, press buttons, whatever it takes to get them to play...you need to scheme, but you also need to make sure your boys know there are a core set of plays THEY MUST EXECUTE FOR POSITIVE YARDS regardless of the situation, or there will be stadium stairs until death. YEA, its OK to punish them, and be so pissed in practice they put an R rating on the stadium entrance...And before any of you egg head X and O guys start with the preparation for the next team crap, Hows that Workin'... who the hell cares what the other team does...what the hell can we DO?

Latina has been horrific at teaching these guys, and demanding they perform. He also STINKS at making adjustments...kinda think thats residue from his failure to do the first two things. As you can see, there is no other part of the game that puts more stress on a team than poor offensive line play...Fix that, and things start to improve significantly.

And yea...we could use someone to put some beef on the D-line too, but not as serious a problem.

Charlie, of all people has to know the O-line is the Lynchpin to his Offense, and the great equalizer of all in-game events...The fact that Latina is still around tells me Cahrlie is completely out to lunch.

Charlie will be here next year...No way Latina survives this...when the AD looks back at this season, and if he has a clue about football at this level, he'll demand the change.

I agree with everyone who says it'd be hard to get someone to take this job, and Charlie can recruit (although the great snowball incident is bound to hurt that department). And yea, he couldn't motivate an Ididerod sled dog to eat a steak, but reality is...he's ours in '09. We need someone who can coach the Fatties up worse than any other single thing noted as a shortcoming in this program.

If Charlie gets Toppled...go get Bill Cowher...he's everything Charlie lacks...and he has at least one "ring of credibility", and some pull in JoePA's backyard.


Good post, ph. Except for the bolded part. That's last year's impression carried over to this year. This year, ND has won the Time of Possession battle. Overall, ND averages 31:36 minutes of TOP, each game. Here is a breakdown, by quarters, of ND's average TOP:

1st Q: 7:38
2nd Q: 7:30
3rd Q: 7:35
4th Q: 8:51

They have been owning the 4th Q, in terms of TOP. The bottom line is that this defense is pretty much average. They have played well enough to win, most weeks. But they are still an average defense, at best. THIS is what truly seperates the great programs from the not so great programs. The great programs have weeks where their offense sputters, and the defense shuts the opposing team down. They also have weeks where the defense couldn't stop a crippled blind lady from going to the store, and their offense just runs wild. I think what we witnessed yesterday was a lack of depth. Losing Micheal Floyd really hurt the offense. I hate to use injuries as an excuse, but I just don't see any way that ND loses that game, with Michael Floyd in the lineup. No offense to David Grimes intended. From everything that I have read, David Grimes is an excellent person, and someone that you just can't help but root for. But he is no Michael Floyd.
 

MeanGreen

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I agree with phgreek and many others. Latina has to go. If Haywood leaves CW needs to find an offensive guy who is on the same page has he is. Or simple just hire someone to coach the RB's.
 

mooneytostle

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I agree with phgreek and many others. Latina has to go. If Haywood leaves CW needs to find an offensive guy who is on the same page has he is. Or simple just hire someone to coach the RB's.

the problem is that no one in their right mind will want to come coach here knowing that Weis will most likely be fired after next year. No one leaves a secure job for one that is completely unsecure. We won't be able to get anyone of substance.
 

phgreek

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Good post, ph. Except for the bolded part. That's last year's impression carried over to this year. This year, ND has won the Time of Possession battle. Overall, ND averages 31:36 minutes of TOP, each game. Here is a breakdown, by quarters, of ND's average TOP:

1st Q: 7:38
2nd Q: 7:30
3rd Q: 7:35
4th Q: 8:51

They have been owning the 4th Q, in terms of TOP. The bottom line is that this defense is pretty much average. They have played well enough to win, most weeks. But they are still an average defense, at best. THIS is what truly seperates the great programs from the not so great programs. The great programs have weeks where their offense sputters, and the defense shuts the opposing team down. They also have weeks where the defense couldn't stop a crippled blind lady from going to the store, and their offense just runs wild. I think what we witnessed yesterday was a lack of depth. Losing Micheal Floyd really hurt the offense. I hate to use injuries as an excuse, but I just don't see any way that ND loses that game, with Michael Floyd in the lineup. No offense to David Grimes intended. From everything that I have read, David Grimes is an excellent person, and someone that you just can't help but root for. But he is no Michael Floyd.

average TOP acknowledged...thanks for pointing it out...maybe I'm crazy but seems like there were a good handfull of games where we didn't do much on offense in the second half, and that the D seemed to be on the field alot...indeed, I'm hungover from last year's performance...still...it seems like we hit homeruns, and don't sustain drives...
 
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