"Apples & Oranges" Cards on the Table

[SteveM]

Let’s play out the "Apples & Oranges" recruiting argument right here.

The argument: Other schools recruit players that ND won't. That puts Notre Dame at a serious competitive disadvantage. (Apples & Oranges)

What that implies:

ND’s recruiting advantage of history, tradition, excellence and TV contract is swamped by Apples & Oranges

Assumption:

ND’s will not relax its recruiting standards

Aside:

I help people think through hard problems for a living. And a critical point of understanding is being able to discriminate between the things you can change (intrinsic opportunities to improve) and things that you can’t (the extrinsic state of nature.)

What that means:

The A&O argument is an extrinsic factor. Bitching and moaning about A&O is like bitching and moaning about the weather. If A&O is as substantial as you guys state, Notre Dame will NEVER again be big time competitive because the state of nature CAN NOT BE CHANGED.

So admit that, give up the gnashing of teeth and ice the dialogs about winning and losing now. Because ND can’t compete and should be in a downsizing mode with reduced expectations. That makes the current on field drama discussions moot. Because we can’t compete for extrinsic reasons.

We can still love ND like Colgate grads love Colgate. Change the conversation to topics like building a Navy – Tulane type schedule. That’s it. All the other stuff about coaching and execution is irrelevant because we don’t belong on the same field with our current competition.

When there is no alternative – there is no problem.

I am typing this with the (somewhat) emotional detachment of an analytic. And I know what the feedback is going to be already. A bunch of “Yeah, buts…” “We want to have our cake and eat it too”.

There’s no “Yeah, buts…” if ND can get it done because of who it is, let’s see ‘em get it done. Stop the A&O excuse and just play.

If it can’t because of who it’s competition is, admit that with equanimity, reduce expectations and let’s have some tea and cookies.

SteveM

 

[Irishlew]

damn dude...do you have a job? you typed all that crap at 4:00 in the morning.

 

[SteveM]

Zzzzzzzzz..........

Zzzzzzzzz..........

damn dude...do you have a job? you typed all that crap at 4:00 in the morning.

IL,

Yeah, I thought that too. I couldn't sleep, and the time change thing and the topic spun me up.

I have to try meditation or something.

SteveM

 

[ACamp1900]

Let’s play out the "Apples & Oranges" recruiting argument right here.

The argument: Other schools recruit players that ND won't. That puts Notre Dame at a serious competitive disadvantage. (Apples & Oranges)

What that implies:

ND’s recruiting advantage of history, tradition, excellence and TV contract is swamped by Apples & Oranges

Assumption:

ND’s will not relax its recruiting standards

Aside:

I help people think through hard problems for a living. And a critical point of understanding is being able to discriminate between the things you can change (intrinsic opportunities to improve) and things that you can’t (the extrinsic state of nature.)

What that means:

The A&O argument is an extrinsic factor. Bitching and moaning about A&O is like bitching and moaning about the weather. If A&O is as substantial as you guys state, Notre Dame will NEVER again be big time competitive because the state of nature CAN NOT BE CHANGED.

So admit that, give up the gnashing of teeth and ice the dialogs about winning and losing now. Because ND can’t compete and should be in a downsizing mode with reduced expectations. That makes the current on field drama discussions moot. Because we can’t compete for extrinsic reasons.

We can still love ND like Colgate grads love Colgate. Change the conversation to topics like building a Navy – Tulane type schedule. That’s it. All the other stuff about coaching and execution is irrelevant because we don’t belong on the same field with our current competition.

When there is no alternative – there is no problem.

I am typing this with the (somewhat) emotional detachment of an analytic. And I know what the feedback is going to be already. A bunch of “Yeah, buts…” “We want to have our cake and eat it too”.

There’s no “Yeah, buts…” if ND can get it done because of who it is, let’s see ‘em get it done. Stop the A&O excuse and just play.

If it can’t because of who it’s competition is, admit that with equanimity, reduce expectations and let’s have some tea and cookies.

SteveM

Steve I am torn here, it was obviously late and you obviously put a lot of thought into this post... for that you deserve reps... but let me add to that a bit


Your post is full of absolutes with no shades of gray, it ain't that simple... just a couple points (Not "yeah butts" as you put it)

1.) Every major program has built in advantages and disadvantages... SC has a great climate but is in the middle of the ghetto and surrounded entirely by an inner city environment... they recruit almost exclusively kids from the inner city and stay away, for the most part, from kids from more rural areas... they also can't sell their academics like they used to, so they don't try. They sell the flash and the glitz... that's how they have properly adjusted and evovled and look at the results...

the same type of scenario can be laid out for Florida, tOSU and guess what, Notre Dame... you go with what you got, they do it and we do it... Lou Holtz and Charlie have proven you can get five star talent with our academic standards so we will be fine there, we adjusted and moved forword. So those posters who vent on our disadvantages are fine, those who use that as an excuse for loses... well I'm right there with ya on that it's apples to oranges and we simply need to move on...

2.) Schduling, (Man this is really a sour spot with you isn't it??) is NOT repeat NOT a Notre Dame exclusive here. During the great Nebraska run of the late 80's to late 90's the Huskers played NO ONE during the season... they got beat in the title game (or bowl game) far too often because of it but no one really remembers that do they?? Tom Osborne is a living legend and those NU teams are considered some of the greatest all time. Penn St. during the 80's was dominant, then they joined the big ten and thier schedule and other circumstances got harder, they have had exactly two seasons where they have enjoyed title contension since and this year is one of them.

Notre Dame lost maybe two titles b/c of ridiculously strong schedules during the late 80's to mid 90's imo. Say what you want but that is the nature of the beast, you have to recruit, you have to have the right coach and you have to have the right schedule in order to run the table. I am NOT saying play D 2 teams but I don't see ANYTHING wrong with ND playing a big ten schedule with USC, Stanford, Navy and you pick em being our schedule. It's not a cake walk nor is it a gauntlet... simply an average schedule, and right now I believe our SOS shows that.

I also don't see anything wrong with admitting where this team is right now... we are better than Pitt and should have beaten them... we are not at the level of SC or Florida and should not on any average gameday beat them... there I said it... Don't duck anyone but unrealistic expectations is yet another on the long list of factors that have hurt ND over the last decade plus

3.) Sure let's give up the ship and have tea time... I'm not sure what is worse: the poster who feels we need to lessen the schedule more because we can't beat a big team right now; or the poster who feels if we aren't gonna play a top 25 team every week and expect fully to win every game lets just move on to other things and stop taking football seriously.

Seriously, both sides of that need to shotgun a can of 'stfu.' We all feel hard loses, I am no exception, but I could care less if we lose every freaking game. I'm a ND diehard and will be til my last breath... the fact that we do in fact have higher standards, the same that the entire country should be held to imo, is probably the main reason as to why. If we become Northwestern so be it, I'm cherring to the end, in fact I'd much rather become Northwestern than do things the USC or Florida way and win a title, I mean that sincerly.




I still personally stand by what I said after the Pitt game, The last ten years have put Notre Dame in a position where if we don't evovle and adjust in many ways then our beloved program will in fact have to enjoy highlights of eras past and simply live for that once every five years bowl bid... but imo we have been doing just that evloving and adjusting... wins will solve everything in the long run and I believe they are coming. I'm very much a realist and consider myself one of the more grounded posters here at times (in regards to ND's expectations) and I can honestly say I see great things over the next three to four years at ND... schduling, recruiting and coaching have put us in the position to finally climb out of the muck we have been stuck in since the end of the Holtz era. Once we truly 'get back' to where we all want and expect to be, then lets smash through walls... but that attitude that seems anti-rebuilding and anit-reflective is what had us spining our wheels the last 15 years to begin with



I hope you were just tired last night and the dissapointment over the loss to Pitt finally showed in your post this morning b/c I'm starting to feel a large majority is jumping off the bus and even though we have two different views on the details, until this thread I felt that we where two of the regs with a ton of resolve on the matter of our programs bright future.... I know you think back to the late 90's and I remember them well too, but this time IS different...

Come back to us Steve, brighter days lay ahead

GO IRISH!!!

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

damn dude...do you have a job? you typed all that crap at 4:00 in the morning.

I read SteveM's post and thought hmmmm, how can I respond. Then I read yours and farted while I busted out laughing. ND football is turning me schizo.

Funny thing about ACamp's tremendous response to SteveM's tremendous post is that sometimes preachers to the choir sometimes don't recognize that tenors and altos sing together.

This forum needs to invite haters.

I think I will join a FUSC forum.

 

[SteveM]

The Ric Flair Model

The Ric Flair Model

Steve I am torn here, it was obviously late and you obviously put a lot of thought into this post... for that you deserve reps... but let me add to that a bit


Come back to us Steve, brighter days lay ahead

GO IRISH!!!

ACamp,

First of all great post. Your points are elegantly and passionately stated. I appreciate the thought that went into it.

I think we are on the same page. Let me try to validate that.

First, I agree about the scheduling arguments. I checked Texas Tech's schedule for grins and their first 5 opponents were doormats. (UMass!?)

I agree with the sanity of a balanced schedule. What gets me is the confluence of excuses and workarounds that the guys here cobble together. I.e., Too young and too pure + cede tough games and hopefully slide into a weak bowl. In other words, the easier part of the schedule isn't just easier, it's mission critical because we can't match up against teams that matter. ND football is just an illusion under that regime.

I don't think that way. When I'm in Ric Flair Wooo!!! mode, it's genuine. I wouldn't say it if I thought the boys couldn't get it done.

And I do share your optimism about the future. I was baiting our guys to put up or shut up about where the program should go. Buy into the competitive environment without excuses or petition for a downscope of the program.

But the near term future is contingent on the proper leadership. From my PoV the jury's still out.

I can't help thinking about Paul Johnson. It's not that I think he walks on water. It's just that he is the perfect archetype for a college coach who can win in a quality environment. In other words, case history proves it can be done. So that's what I expect out of Charlie. Again, I'm not saying anything else about this topic. I'm just pointing out the facts on the ground.


SteveM

 

[CurtisCandy]

Interesting, thoughtful post, Steve... At least the parts of it I can understand; I've been hit in the head a LOT.

Personally, I wouldn't change ND's recruiting process for anything. I am very proud of the school's high standards, and I believe it makes our wins all that much more special. If it means going a little longer in between those wins, then so be it.

Suffering through losing seasons would NEVER derail my passion for Notre Dame football. Giving up on the standards we have that make ND a truly special place, however, would do some serious damage to my zeal.

That said, I have to go to the fridge now... For some reason, I have a craving for a piece of fruit.

 

[SoCalDomer]

I can't help thinking about Paul Johnson. It's not that I think he walks on water. It's just that he is the perfect archetype for a college coach who can win in a quality environment. In other words, case history proves it can be done. So that's what I expect out of Charlie. Again, I'm not saying anything else about this topic. I'm just pointing out the facts on the ground.

One of the things I am learning about college football is it becomes nearly impossible to compare different teams, who have different coaching situations, who underwent different recruiting situations, who play different opponents.

We can use all sorts of bad and circular logic like we beat this team beat this other team who beat this other team who beat USC so that means we should beat USC.

But it seems to me that in college football, short of the top-10 teams (by the end of the season, not any poll in between) teams will exhibit rather inconsistent play on any given Saturday. That's why UCLA can beat Tenn in their opener only to lose 59-6 to BYU the following week. That's why Michigan can lose to Div-1AA App State in their opener and then beat defending National Champion Florida in a BCS bowl. That's how Alabama can lose to Louisiana-Monroe one year and come back to possibly play for the NC the next year.

CFB teams can be terribly unpredictible, both for the good and the bad.

 

[NDinL.A.]

ACamp,

I can't help thinking about Paul Johnson. It's not that I think he walks on water. It's just that he is the perfect archetype for a college coach who can win in a quality environment. In other words, case history proves it can be done. So that's what I expect out of Charlie. Again, I'm not saying anything else about this topic. I'm just pointing out the facts on the ground.


SteveM

I responded to this on another post of yours and you ignored me, so I'll try on this one:

What has Paul Johnson done in year one that CW didn't do in year one? CW took ND to a BCS bowl, which GT still has a whole lot of work to do just to get there. The PJ analogy simply doesn't work here. If he was in year 4, then yeah, you can compare the 2. But saying that PJ is doing a job that CW hasn't proven he can do yet simply isn't true. CW already did what PJ is doing, plus possibly much more, in year one. You need to find another coach to make your analogy fit...

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

We almost had Urban as a coach.

How ya like them apples?


I'll take CW. He's a great fit for the Irish.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Another thread where the heavyweights check in...

Interesting, thoughtful post, Steve... At least the parts of it I can understand; I've been hit in the head a LOT...

Sometimes a post is so funny that...

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

One of the things I am learning about college football is it becomes nearly impossible to compare different teams, who have different coaching situations, who underwent different recruiting situations, who play different opponents.

We can use all sorts of bad and circular logic like we beat this team beat this other team who beat this other team who beat USC so that means we should beat USC.

But it seems to me that in college football, short of the top-10 teams (by the end of the season, not any poll in between) teams will exhibit rather inconsistent play on any given Saturday. That's why UCLA can beat Tenn in their opener only to lose 59-6 to BYU the following week. That's why Michigan can lose to Div-1AA App State in their opener and then beat defending National Champion Florida in a BCS bowl. That's how Alabama can lose to Louisiana-Monroe one year and come back to possibly play for the NC the next year.

CFB teams can be terribly unpredictible, both for the good and the bad.

Yep. Guess that is why you da man. Good post my friend.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Here's more for the apples and oranges argument:

GAINESVILLE, Fla. -- Florida cornerback Jacques Rickerson was kicked off the team following his arrest on a felony battery charge.

The 20-year-old sophomore from St. Augustine was being held in the Alachua County jail Tuesday. According to the Gainesville Sun, no bond had been set yet.

Gainesville police said Rickerson slapped his girlfriend on the face, choked her, then covered her face with a pillow when she tried to scream for help. Authorities say the altercation started when she asked him to leave her apartment and Rickerson got upset.

According to the Sun, the woman told police Rickerson blocked the door and took her cellphone when she tried to flee the room and call police.

The police report indicated the woman had visible marks on her arm, neck and chest, according to the Sun.

Rickerson played in all eight games this season as a backup, recording 10 tackles and an interception.

"Jacques Rickerson is no longer part of our team -- that is not what our program is about," coach Urban Meyer said in a statement

ESPN - Florida Gators cornerback Jacques Rickerson kicked off team after arrest

I love the last thing Urban said! Sure, that's why you're program leads the world in arrests since you took over. Oh, wait Nick Satan might have caught you by now...

 

[SteveM]

Nuance Run Amok

Nuance Run Amok

Here's more for the apples and oranges argument:

Uh...Left Coastie,

You're missing the point. "Extrinsic factors" ring a bell?

The point is not the differential standards. They are an Extrinsic State of Nature over which ND has no control.

The fundamental question is, Can ND compete given the global BCS recruiting model?

A&O has been totally played on this site. No need to recycle.

If ND can compete, rack 'em up against the opponents in cell block #9. If not, play Tulane 12 times a year with a bowl classic against the Little Sisters.

SteveM

P.S. Now the fate of Charlie is Intrinsically larger than even he is. That, and other critical issues of the day that ND does control, invite much metaphysical contemplation and portentous discussion with furrowed brows here at this site. Let me put on my tweed jacket and fetch a snifter of brandy so I am properly equipped to mix it up.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Uh......D.C. guy, all I said was "Here's more for the apples and oranges argument", and that was it. Didn't take a stand one way or the other. All I wanted to do was actually draw you out, and I knew that the apples and oranges argument would do so. Sometimes it's too easy.

Here's my problem: You will argue until you are blue in the dictionary when you think you are absolutely right, but when I respond w/ my undictionary-like argument, you completey ignore my point. I asked you a question on 2 different threads that you started (or maybe you started one and posted on another) about how you can compare Paul Johnson's first year to CW's 4th year, and etc etc, and you ignored me both times and continued as if your argument was law.

The question: Why ignore the point? We're all wrong sometimes, even you. And you were wrong, but wouldn't admit it, but even worse, you ignore it. It comes off as smug. I'll always admit when I'm wrong, which as my lady likes to point out, is often...

 

[SteveM]

Mr. Manners Goes Ballistic

Mr. Manners Goes Ballistic

Uh......D.C. guy, all I said was "Here's more for the apples and oranges argument", and that was it. Didn't take a stand one way or the other. All I wanted to do was actually draw you out, and I knew that the apples and oranges argument would do so. Sometimes it's too easy.

Here's my problem: You will argue until you are blue in the dictionary when you think you are absolutely right, but when I respond w/ my undictionary-like argument, you completey ignore my point. I asked you a question on 2 different threads that you started (or maybe you started one and posted on another) about how you can compare Paul Johnson's first year to CW's 4th year, and etc etc, and you ignored me both times and continued as if your argument was law.

The question: Why ignore the point? We're all wrong sometimes, even you. And you were wrong, but wouldn't admit it, but even worse, you ignore it. It comes off as smug. I'll always admit when I'm wrong, which as my lady likes to point out, is often...

Ah Dear Ol' LA Guy,

You are confusing invitation with obligation. Posting a comment invites a response. It certainly does not compel one.

Guys here ignore what I write all the time. I sometimes congratulate them on their effective time management by doing so. So it's water off a duck's back. I ain't that special. Life isn't fair in love, war or blog posting.

But as a gesture of fraternal appreciation of your inputs and insights, let me go back and read what you wrote and see if I can come with something that validates in your mind that I am indeed a horse's ass.

SteveM

 

[NDinL.A.]

No need to do that. You're obviously a learned man, no response is necessary, esp if you don't feel like it. I just thought that since you like to dialogue so much, I found it odd you would choose otherwise.

P.S. I don't think you're a horse's ass. I feel like a horse's ass when I try to decipher your words though...

 

[SteveM]

Can't Pay the Bills with Erudition

Can't Pay the Bills with Erudition

No need to do that. You're obviously a learned man, no response is necessary, esp if you don't feel like it. I just thought that since you like to dialogue so much, I found it odd you would choose otherwise.

P.S. I don't think you're a horse's ass. I feel like a horse's ass when I try to decipher your words though...

Hah! My vocabulary and a buck - thirtyfive will get me a ride on the Metro.

SteveM

 

[ARALOU]

Do I think ND should compete with the top programs in the country? Yes. Do I think they are at a disadvantage recruiting? Not really. Do I think there are some "good" kids out there that just cant make the grade and can really play? Yes. Do I think we should schedule a few more cupcakes? Not really. I think we can and will be back.
IF you dont think there is a difference in the type of kid on the Irish then just look no further than the fans on this message board. The fans reflect the type of student ND has (for the most part)

Go to Volnation message board and read the jibberish they write. Bitching because some dude named Jim Bob Cooter did not get a fair shot.

I am willing to wait another year before I get on the fire CW bandwagon.