offensive line, defensive line i am completely disgusted

[alleycat9]

sophomore, junior, senior it really doesnt matter, i will give freshmen a pass but once you have played and lets remember some of these guys have started for 3 years. you really really should be able to stay lower than the defensive lineman and put a shoulder into him and move him. its not like they are not getting there on reach blocks these guys are letting the dl get under their pads and move them backward on straight ahead blocks. completely unacceptable for a major college lineman.

its not just now and again either its EVERY SINGLE TIME WE RUN. i also saw too many times where they did not understand what an angle was and let a guy rush right around them to the outside directly into the qb almost like they thought he would go beyond. they at times didnt look like they knew who to block in passing situations. they looked slow, they looked weak, they looked like an absolute mess. and that creates major problems EVERYWHERE, run offense, pass offense, defense, special teams. everywhere


the rbs dont gain big yardage because number 1 there are absolutely no holes to run through, when they do manage a few yards they are having to make moves in the backfield which slows down the progression of the play into the second level. we also do not get very good blocking downfield. i will give the te a break as he is not really ready to be playing but hes out there. the rest of them i expect better from and if i were the coach i would be in their ass every single day.

the dl is small, but on top of that they are slow too. do not shed blocks, do not take up blocks, do not require double teams. they are going the opposite direction, they are being pushed right off the ball every play. they also create no pressure and we blitz a hundred times a game because of it. and that doesnt produce any pressure.

it isnt necessary to have 5 star recruits to have a good o and d line.

talk all you want about next year and the year after if the lines dont improve greatly which i dont see happening nothing will matter.


i walked away for a number of hours after the game because i was fired up and i guess i still am. its quite frustrating to me.

 

[brentlycat]

Does anybody remember what charlie weis said after being hired?"we will be a mean,nasty,intelligent football team"kind of ironic seeing as we're none of those things.

 

[Junkhead]

They had 82 yards on 27 carries...if you eliminate sacks 26 carries and 105 yards.

They better be able to run, they threw 8 for 34.

We had 16 yards on 22 rushes...if you eliminate sacks: 53 yards on 17 att.

We simply did not try. 17 rushes total...that's all.

Hard to compare apples to apples that way.

Look at the hard facts, no silver lining, and our lack of running game is a HUGE problem. No way to sugar coat it.

 

[NDOM]

Does anybody remember what charlie weis said after being hired?"we will be a mean,nasty,intelligent football team"kind of ironic seeing as we're none of those things.

THANK YOU!!!!!Finally someone said it!

 

[phork]

Oh how the tide has turned... It wasn't but a week ago that I was getting slammed of my appraisal of this team.

BTW LOVEMYIRISH Alabama comes to mind:

Class Breakdown
Freshmen 45
Sophomores 26
Juniors 25
Seniors 11

Sorry, but you can only defend the coaching for so long.

 

[NDOM]

Oh how the tide has turned... It wasn't but a week ago that I was getting slammed of my appraisal of this team.

BTW LOVEMYIRISH Alabama comes to mind:

Class Breakdown
Freshmen 45
Sophomores 26
Juniors 25
Seniors 11

Sorry, but you can only defend the coaching for so long.

WOW WOW WOW! Great post dude. And Bama is in the SEC. Were independent. I bet you anything if we played Arkansas like Bama did, Arkansas probly would have smoked us.

 

[GoIrish41]

Did you watch the game? Did you see one play where there was a big hole that the RBs missed? Out of AA, RH, and JA, the long run was 9. There is nowhere to go. You could put Walter Payton in his prime back there and he would lose yards.

I watched the game and I saw Ringer breaking tackles and picking up YAC all day long. He didn't have anywhere to go either many times, and all of the sudden, he'd break out of the pack and pick up 4 or 5 more yards. ND's RBs rarely if ever do that. They have as much to do with our lack of production as our line does, IMHO. Playcalling isn't great either. Every run is between the tackles. We rarely challenge the edges. My point is that it isn't as simple as blaming the OL every week we don't have significant production in the running game (which is never).

 

[GreenGoblin]

Charlie Weis has been an epic failure. His NFL tactics failed, he recruits well, but whats the point if you cant develop the talent? James Aldridge, a 5 star back, is getting one touch a game. Sam Young, a 5 star tackle is making mental errors and getting pushed around like a little girl at 6'8.

The only success Weis had on this team was with the players he inherited, aside from 4-5 players, the rest of his recruits(so far) have turned into practice squad material.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Charlie Weis has been an epic failure. His NFL tactics failed, he recruits well, but whats the point if you cant develop the talent? James Aldridge, a 5 star back, is getting one touch a game. Sam Young, a 5 star tackle is making mental errors and getting pushed around like a little girl at 6'8.

The only success Weis had on this team was with the players he inherited, aside from 4-5 players, the rest of his recruits(so far) have turned into practice squad material.

I guess I have to respond to every one of your tired old posts with the same post I wrote on another thread:

Is your plan just to come on every thread and rant about Charlie Weis being fired? Where were you last week after the Michigan game? Not here. So all of a sudden he should be fired because we lost on the road w/ a bunch of freshmen and sophomores? And you want to hire a KID who just to a putrid team they were WAAYYYYYY better than (supposedly), a kid who MIGHT be good in the future but still has so much to prove, over a guy who took us to 2 BCS bowl games in the last 3 years? Are you for real? So you just want to start over, AGAIN? I can't stand it when people just want to hire Johnny Come Lately and blow up what they have going. Ty was a great firing; firing Weis and blowup the recruiting and improvement we're maing already would be premature.

I feel your frustration; the O-Line and D-Lines, again, were disappointing to see the least. But there is VAST improvement from last year, and that young talent is just doing to keep playing better and better. It's funny how you rant and rave about NO PLAYER DEVELOPMENT, but you neglect to mention GOLDEN F-ING TATE. I guy who could run but one route last year now looks like a first-rounder. Ummm, I think that's called development. And there's more:

*Brian Smith: Holy cow what a stud.
*Kyle McCarthy - leading the nation in tackles, and not because he's late getting to plays. Those who say that don't know what a safety does.
*Jimmy Clausen - So much better than last year. Just wait - he's special.
*Bruton - Has turned into a highly touted NFL prospect.

I could go on and on. Yeah, we want to see more. We NEED to see more. But just chill out a bit. Starting over with the brand new everything is the stupidest thing we could do right now. Just ask the NYGiants if keeping Coughlin worked out? Ask the Raiders if letting go of Gruden and hiring like 20 coaches since has worked out. If he sucks - get rid of him. CW doesn't suck. If the team doesn't show improvement, I'm with you. But right now, you're way off base...

 

[NDOM]

Charlie Weis has been an epic failure. His NFL tactics failed, he recruits well, but whats the point if you cant develop the talent? James Aldridge, a 5 star back, is getting one touch a game. Sam Young, a 5 star tackle is making mental errors and getting pushed around like a little girl at 6'8.

The only success Weis had on this team was with the players he inherited, aside from 4-5 players, the rest of his recruits(so far) have turned into practice squad material.

You CANT argue with this post. It's 150 billion % true. How can you argue otherwise?

 

[alleycat9]

I watched the game and I saw Ringer breaking tackles and picking up YAC all day long. He didn't have anywhere to go either many times, and all of the sudden, he'd break out of the pack and pick up 4 or 5 more yards. ND's RBs rarely if ever do that. They have as much to do with our lack of production as our line does, IMHO. Playcalling isn't great either. Every run is between the tackles. We rarely challenge the edges. My point is that it isn't as simple as blaming the OL every week we don't have significant production in the running game (which is never).

i have to disagree, they were opening holes for him all day. sure he got YAC as well but there were very very nice holes there. they trapped us to death in that game.

we continued to get pushed back or maintain position every running play, there was no forward push there was no trapping and opening holes. these guys stand straight up they have difficulty blocking someone directly in front of them. i dont know if i have seen one single good reach block this season where the blocker gets his head across and drives the man out. usually the d lineman gets his head across and the blocker loses his balance and is overrun.


i have to wonder about the outside running as i wonder does the OL have the quickness and agility to get outside on a pull? they really dont even trap inside the tackles which makes me think they either dont have the agility and quickness or the coaching staff is confused.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

GOOD LORD JESUS YOU POSTERS HERE ARE SOME KNOWLEDGEABLE FOOTBALL FANS. I missed most of the game, probably mostly because I anticipated a loss and my pre-partem depression forced me to sleep through the first 3 1/2 quarters of the game. After reading all these posts, all I can add is that (and I have no verifiable proof) an ND frosh is probably 18 or 19, compared to the opposition, whose frosh could be 22. This team is still way too young to contend for the NC, but I do believe Weis is laying a solid foundation.

I also believe Willingham ruined the program. Opportunists tend to do that. So do prostitutes. "Get what you can get while you can and eff the rest tommorrow..."

Weis is a homeboy. I don't think a homeboy would ever betray his mother.

I also believe the o-line is too fat and eating too much. They need to lose weight and gain quickness and muscle. Eat less spaghetti and more vegetables. That will keep a body hungry and active.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I will amend my last post. I never thought Willingham was a championship-able coach, but he was also coaching at a time that I think ND was full of itself. I read a post on here that said "To be the man, you have to beat the man." Thing is, in NCAA football, you only have to beat 1 perceived best man once, in order to be the man. ND was arrogant enough to think they could beat the best programs in the country every week. No coach or team can survive that. I think the T.V. contract somewhat forced N.D. into such a ridiculously tough schedule.

I will always respect Mr. Willingham, the man and father and coach.

As far as my "opportunists and prostitute" comment goes, I was personally crushed by such a person and group. Some have said I suffered a catastrophic event. Just for kicks, let's say that in school, someone studied and did well on exams. Someone else batted their eyelashes and convinced the studier to help them pass the class. One is the real thing, and one is a fraud. I think CDub is the real thing. I think Willingham is the real thing too, but he was given too tough a job.

It is not and will not be an even playing field ever. But that's life. All I can do is be a diehard Notre Dame du Lac fan.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Oh how the tide has turned... It wasn't but a week ago that I was getting slammed of my appraisal of this team.

BTW LOVEMYIRISH Alabama comes to mind:

Class Breakdown
Freshmen 45
Sophomores 26
Juniors 25
Seniors 11

Sorry, but you can only defend the coaching for so long.

Umm...why don't I see 5th Year Seniors on this list?

There is a reason, because they don't have 45 Freshman. C'mon man.

First off, they are limited to 85.
Second, we know they only have 25 Freshman this year.
Third, most of those SENIORS are really 5th year Seniors.

If you wanna debate with data, know the data you are debating with first.

Not trying to be rude here, but this data is simply not proving your point since there are no 5th years listed...and we know why. THEIR JUNIORS ARE REALLY SENIORS.

 

[NDinL.A.]

You CANT argue with this post. It's 150 billion % true. How can you argue otherwise?

Easily. Charlie won w/ Juniors and seniors, not freshmen and sophomores. Look it up. Ty left the program's depth chart so bare, we should have seen last year coming a mile away. We didn't. At least I didn't.

So you're really agreeing that they're only 4-5 CW recruits that are any good on this roster? You're really saying that the rest are practice squad material? And you're a ND fan who knows ND football? Wow, OK, off the top of my head:

Tate
Floyd
Smith
Blanton
Smith
Rudolph
Hughes (not his fault the O-Line sucks)
Allen (ditto)
Williams
Robinson
Johnson
Gray (coming along; made several nice plays Saturday)
Clausen

And this is just off the top of my head. These are TRUE freshmen and sophomores playing and contributing. Wait until some of these guys get some weight and some experience.

I understand some of the criticism, hell I understand everything being said about the O-Line and Latina. But to say our young guys are pretty much all practice squad players, and then to say you CAN'T argue against it, well, IMO is short-sighted...

 

[phork]

Umm...why don't I see 5th Year Seniors on this list?

There is a reason, because they don't have 45 Freshman. C'mon man.

First off, they are limited to 85.
Second, we know they only have 25 Freshman this year.
Third, most of those SENIORS are really 5th year Seniors.

If you wanna debate with data, know the data you are debating with first.

Not trying to be rude here, but this data is simply not proving your point since there are no 5th years listed...and we know why. THEIR JUNIORS ARE REALLY SENIORS.

Limited to 85? 85 Scholarships, yes, not everyone has a scholarship on the sideline.

For your reference:

ESPN - Alabama Crimson Tide Roster - College Football

Alabama has one of the youngest teams in the country and yet are ranked at #8 now, jumping Wisconsin. Granted they have yet to play anyone of substance, but I digress.

 

[bluegold06]

Limited to 85? 85 Scholarships, yes, not everyone has a scholarship on the sideline.

For your reference:

ESPN - Alabama Crimson Tide Roster - College Football

Alabama has one of the youngest teams in the country and yet are ranked at #8 now, jumping Wisconsin. Granted they have yet to play anyone of substance, but I digress.

Alabama will do fine this year. They have manhandled every team they have played. Clemson hasn't lost since that whipping Alabama put on them. Alabama wll give Georgia everything they want, probably winning the game. Alabama will win the battle on both lines. The bad thing of all this is, we have out recruited Alabama the last few years. I don't want to hear about transfers, etc. everyone has them. Saban is just a better college coach than we have.

 

[BeatSC]

Our Offensive Line needs to hit the weight room. They look like farm boys who are big but couldn't bench their own body weight. Every other team I look at has stronger looking guys. I have to laugh at the thought of a previous thread last week that asked the question: "Do we think that Sam Young will leave school early for the NFL draft?"...What a joke. He is Ok but until he can anchor a line that supports a real ground game he can forget even getting drafted. CW really needs to put some emphasis on the running game and getting a little more creative ASAP. Also our RB's don't have to run into the back of their lineman if it is all bunched up in there. I have seen many backs bounce the run outside for big gains...just not us.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Alabama will do fine this year. They have manhandled every team they have played. Clemson hasn't lost since that whipping Alabama put on them. Alabama wll give Georgia everything they want, probably winning the game. Alabama will win the battle on both lines. The bad thing of all this is, we have out recruited Alabama the last few years. I don't want to hear about transfers, etc. everyone has them. Saban is just a better college coach than we have.

Yeah, and that coach is a scumbag. We always talk about how proud we are to have graduated from or root for a school that puts values ahead of all else. Well, look into the real Nick Saban, and the dude is straight trash. Not talking about his coaching abilities, but just as a man himself. He's nicknamed Nick Satan for a reason.

As for Alabama, you're right, they are nice and athletic as hell. But again, they get the athletes that ND can't touch. Just look at Penn St. They sucked for a long time, and then JoePa sold his soul to the devil and told his recruiters to go get anyone, regardless of character. And then magically they started winnign again. And now magically, just coincidentally, they lead the world in police incidents as well. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out why.

And Rivals and Scouts and those guys are wrong just as much as they are right. You never know until they step foot on the field. Those Alabama boys are some mean SOB's, and they get after it.

I know many are down on CW, but I think he's the right man for the job, and we're on the upswing. But like you, I want to see more improvement. I see it coming, but time will tell...

 

[kmoose]

Let's translate that into BCS team speak.

We have 3 RedShirt Sophomores, 1 Junior, and 1 red-shirt Junior starting.

So, I ask again...what team has an OL that young besides us?

It's not a question of whether or not they are the youngest. They are all experienced enough now that they should know what they are doing. They just are not getting the job done consistently. There have been some holes that backs have missed, this year. It's neither all on the Line, nor all on the backs. Both are mediocre, and taken together they add up to a piss poor running game.

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

Does anyone think we wills see any personnel changes soon along the lines? Also, do you think Jonas Gray gets a shot if the backs don't start producing soon? I am not calling for any personnel changes, but I was curious if anyone thought there would be.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Does anyone think we wills see any personnel changes soon along the lines? Also, do you think Jonas Gray gets a shot if the backs don't start producing soon? I am not calling for any personnel changes, but I was curious if anyone thought there would be.

Everyone always loves the backups. But remember, there's a reason why they are backups in the first place. We were all clamoring for Clausen last year, and then we saw him play and we were clamoring for Sharpley again. Clausen was a freshmen w/ a bum elbow, but the guys in front of him were so bad we wanted a change. And I know what you mean about Gray, I mean, he's built like friggin' Apollo Creed. But man, you can have Barry Sanders in his prime run behind that line and nothing would change. There are simply little to no holes. I was I would see the Armando Allen that people were comparing to Reggie Bush after his jr year in h.s. I wish I would see the Hughes that I saw at the end of last year. I wish I could see the 5* recruit in Alrdridge. But the line is so bad, I don't think we've given them their true fair shake.

Has Gray wasted his 'redshirt' yet? If not, I doubt they'd waste a whole year just to watch him run through zero holes, and watch him miss a crucial blitz pickup. It's just not worth it. One change I'd like to see if Floyd starting full time over Kamara, w/ Tate on the other side...

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

It's not a question of whether or not they are the youngest. They are all experienced enough now that they should know what they are doing. They just are not getting the job done consistently. There have been some holes that backs have missed, this year. It's neither all on the Line, nor all on the backs. Both are mediocre, and taken together they add up to a piss poor running game.

I agree that two of them are experienced enough, I don't agree on the other 3.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Limited to 85? 85 Scholarships, yes, not everyone has a scholarship on the sideline.

For your reference:

ESPN - Alabama Crimson Tide Roster - College Football

Alabama has one of the youngest teams in the country and yet are ranked at #8 now, jumping Wisconsin. Granted they have yet to play anyone of substance, but I digress.

Yet again you are ignoring the fact that Alabama is not nearly as young as you say.

Please go dig up a depth chart WITH THEIR REAL YEAR. Not this RedShirt BS. If you do, you will find that half of the guys are 1 year older than what they are listed as.

 

[kmoose]

I agree that two of them are experienced enough, I don't agree on the other 3.

4 of the 5 probable starters for Purdue (Olsen, Wenger, Stewart, Young) are listed as Juniors. So they have been in the system for quite a while, even if they don't have a ton of starts.

Olsen: making his 10th start
Wenger: making his 10th start
Stewart: making his 4th start
Young: making his 29th start

The 5th probable starter is Turkovich, a Senior who is making his 16th career start.

As mentioned, they are all uppperclassmen who have been in the system long enough for us to expect them to know what they are doing. It's the skill positions that are young enough be considered jail bait.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Kmoose, based on the numbers you just posted (or I just read hours later) Young is the only Old guy on the team.

How long did it take for any poster here to finally outwrestle his older brother or sister?

I think until you reach a certain age, age and physical development and bias from teachers is all the difference. Bias from teachers because many teachers and coaches and bosses tend to favor the oldest and not let the youngest fight it out fairly.

I still think these guys are too young, and maybe being taught the wrong thing. The o-line needs to be dragged through the mud at practice and let the best man win.

Remember this: despite the numbers you posted, they now have a supposedly new offensive coordinator. I take the tite "offensive coordinator" with a grain of salt, because they still look the same, only with better play-sequencing, but still, they are learning a new offensive system. So they are underaged, overweight athletes, learning from square one. And they are 2-1. They might be 2 and 7 a few weeks from now. My 10 - 17 year old family member ND analysts, who have watched every minute of ND so far tell me ND is vastly improved, and I believe them.

Prepare yourself for that 2-7 possibility. I am preparing myself for a loss against Washington. I think Tyrone will have his troops ready to destroy us. I am not sure I would be so upset by losing to him.

Nah. I'll be pissed as a MF again. I hate when ND du Lac loses.

 

[bluegold06]

Everyone always loves the backups. But remember, there's a reason why they are backups in the first place. We were all clamoring for Clausen last year, and then we saw him play and we were clamoring for Sharpley again. Clausen was a freshmen w/ a bum elbow, but the guys in front of him were so bad we wanted a change. And I know what you mean about Gray, I mean, he's built like friggin' Apollo Creed. But man, you can have Barry Sanders in his prime run behind that line and nothing would change. There are simply little to no holes. I was I would see the Armando Allen that people were comparing to Reggie Bush after his jr year in h.s. I wish I would see the Hughes that I saw at the end of last year. I wish I could see the 5* recruit in Alrdridge. But the line is so bad, I don't think we've given them their true fair shake.

Has Gray wasted his 'redshirt' yet? If not, I doubt they'd waste a whole year just to watch him run through zero holes, and watch him miss a crucial blitz pickup. It's just not worth it. One change I'd like to see if Floyd starting full time over Kamara, w/ Tate on the other side...

Not starting Tate and Floyd is just not smart. They are by far the best 2 wideouts we have. It is not even close, these 2 are going to make plays the others can't and help us win. They should be starting, fulltime.

 

[SteveM]

Contributing to the Collective Mind Dump

Contributing to the Collective Mind Dump

Arguing over the wide-outs is an aside. Those guys can all make plays. It's how the wide-outs fit into the larger scheme of things that matters.

You can never win by just chucking the ball up in the air. That's why the Run 'n Shoot failed. An offense cannot live on wide-outs alone.

Unless, ND starts to develop more balanced productivity offensively, stick a fork in them, they're cooked. (I'm "homing it up" again for Saturday BTW, confident that they will.)

The thing about running backs is that they are a dime a dozen. Notice how the NFL personnel guys have figured that out? Sure, there is the occasional special Barry Sanders. But that's the exception. Here in DC, if Clinton Portis goes does, put in Ledell Betts. And if Betts goes does put in Rock Cartwright. All with little loss of productivity.

It's because of the horses up front. College D-IA is a lot like that. All of the top tier teams have a stable of guys who can carry the ball. Look at Ryan Grant. Just OK at ND, and becomes explosive at GB because of who is in front of him.

Somebody above mentioned the weight room. The right training methods had been ingrained in those guys for so long, there's no way they could have even gotten to ND without knowing when to lift. Nobody's that naive anymore.

One thing I must say, is that a lot of talented guys may have played for mediocre position coaches at the prep level. And when they get to college, their fundamentals still stink. So they have to try to break bad habits at the college level. The skill guys, you just send them out. That phenomenon has the biggest impact on the O-Line.

On last thing about "Apollo Creed". Worst mistake is to evaluate a guy as an athlete rather than a football player. There are plenty of muscle-heads who can't play a down but were recruited or drafted because of their physicality. Not saying it's the case with Gray. Just saying that muscularity gets chicks, but may not correlate to production on the football field.

Just my two Zlotys,

SteveM

P.S. Man I love this stuff...

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

Everyone always loves the backups. But remember, there's a reason why they are backups in the first place. We were all clamoring for Clausen last year, and then we saw him play and we were clamoring for Sharpley again. Clausen was a freshmen w/ a bum elbow, but the guys in front of him were so bad we wanted a change. And I know what you mean about Gray, I mean, he's built like friggin' Apollo Creed. But man, you can have Barry Sanders in his prime run behind that line and nothing would change. There are simply little to no holes. I was I would see the Armando Allen that people were comparing to Reggie Bush after his jr year in h.s. I wish I would see the Hughes that I saw at the end of last year. I wish I could see the 5* recruit in Alrdridge. But the line is so bad, I don't think we've given them their true fair shake.

Has Gray wasted his 'redshirt' yet? If not, I doubt they'd waste a whole year just to watch him run through zero holes, and watch him miss a crucial blitz pickup. It's just not worth it. One change I'd like to see if Floyd starting full time over Kamara, w/ Tate on the other side...

You are so right. I never like to see a lot of personnel changes because I think development takes some time and I don't like to see someone yanked after a couple of off games especially because it is so rough on their confidence.

Another question for you- Why don't we see any plays that pull linemen and run something like an old student body right? Have I just missed it? I guess it goes with the question about running more misdirection and things like that, but if straight up blocking and running it up the gut haven't worked, why haven't we tried to get the backs outside more? Like I said, maybe I just missed it. I just haven't seen very many (if any) toss sweeps outside. If our Oline is not blocking very well against D linemen, would it help to get them out into space and possibly matched up with linebackers and safeties?

 

[SteveM]

Outside Looking In?

Outside Looking In?

...but if straight up blocking and running it up the gut haven't worked, why haven't we tried to get the backs outside more? Like I said, maybe I just missed it. I just haven't seen very many (if any) toss sweeps outside. If our Oline is not blocking very well against D linemen, would it help to get them out into space and possibly matched up with linebackers and safeties?

GI,

Somewhere in the rich pastiche of insight that I've strewn about this forum, I mentioned MSU's defensive discipline. I paid attention to ND's attempts at running outside on Saturday and noticed straight away the great pursuit and run support provided by even the backside safety and linebackers.

Those guys came to play. So for ND to run outside successfully, they have to be doing it on all 11 cylinders.

SteveM