CW's system...

Clausen2Kamara

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I think CW's system is hard to learn and can be too complicated for young kids to learn (Clausen). I think its a good system because it obviously worked with the Pats but it is quite complicated and I think it takes time for a QB to learn it. BQ picked it up well but he was a seasoned Junior. Weis said he has tried to simplify it and hopefully he has. Screens are not too hard to learn...Its not only JC learning it, its the inexperienced wideouts learning it. Ala Kamara and Tate. Remember Kamara comes from a running HS and never really had 2 worry about running precise routes and Golden Tate wasn't even a WR in HS. I think we as a fanbase, (myself included) have got to realize that most of our offensive talent are still getting their feet wet into the college game and system. Once everyone is on the same page and gets comfortable with this offense, to go along with the fact that if our offense learns from it mistakes this season, our O will be a pleasent sight to see. Also remember on the D side the CB's system is also new. So I know its hard but be patient and be positive. Better things are to come...
 

NDOM

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I think CW's system is hard to learn and can be too complicated for young kids to learn (Clausen). I think its a good system because it obviously worked with the Pats but it is quite complicated and I think it takes time for a QB to learn it. BQ picked it up well but he was a seasoned Junior. Weis said he has tried to simplify it and hopefully he has. Screens are not too hard to learn...Its not only JC learning it, its the inexperienced wideouts learning it. Ala Kamara and Tate. Remember Kamara comes from a running HS and never really had 2 worry about running precise routes and Golden Tate wasn't even a WR in HS. I think we as a fanbase, (myself included) have got to realize that most of our offensive talent are still getting their feet wet into the college game and system. Once everyone is on the same page and gets comfortable with this offense, to go along with the fact that if our offense learns from it mistakes this season, our O will be a pleasent sight to see. Also remember on the D side the CB's system is also new. So I know its hard but be patient and be positive. Better things are to come...

Nice post.
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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This is why we are probably two years away. Not just on the talent side, but everyone thinking like a coach.....takes time.
 

Junkhead

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He needs to learn to relate to the players as kids not as millionaire NFL professionals. If he is too stubborn to change, I wouldn't count on him making it to the end of his contract.
 

ColonialHead

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I don't pretend to know anything about Charlie's system since I am not present during team practices or film study.
 

Freeman Ara

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I think CW's system is hard to learn and can be too complicated for young kids to learn (Clausen). I think its a good system because it obviously worked with the Pats but it is quite complicated and I think it takes time for a QB to learn it. BQ picked it up well but he was a seasoned Junior. Weis said he has tried to simplify it and hopefully he has. Screens are not too hard to learn...Its not only JC learning it, its the inexperienced wideouts learning it. Ala Kamara and Tate. Remember Kamara comes from a running HS and never really had 2 worry about running precise routes and Golden Tate wasn't even a WR in HS. I think we as a fanbase, (myself included) have got to realize that most of our offensive talent are still getting their feet wet into the college game and system. Once everyone is on the same page and gets comfortable with this offense, to go along with the fact that if our offense learns from it mistakes this season, our O will be a pleasent sight to see. Also remember on the D side the CB's system is also new. So I know its hard but be patient and be positive. Better things are to come...

I agree that the offensive playbook is huge and involves more than just the QB making reads, but I think the situational playcalling has been terrible. Anytime we were in short yardage this year we brought in Hughes or Aldridge and ran it up the gut which everyone knew was coming, I think it worked 10 percent of the time. On the rare occasion that we got inside the 10 yard line CW loved to call the same play action pass that he has since he stepped on campus. Its called tendencies and other teams study them so they are pretty aware whats coming. Until Weis decides to get less predictable I don't care how smart you are as a coach this offense will struggle. We screened and ran nothing but outs most of the year, when we started taking shots down field is was always the go route. It seems like there weren't enough crosses and slants, which are the hardest routes to cover for a DB. CW rarely put guys in position to make yards after the catch because of his playcalling, it was always a catch followed by a quick tackle. Another thing, as great as Kamara, Tate and some of our other guys might end up I don't think any of them are real gamebreakers yet. I think adding a receiver that can dominate games(which I think Floyd can do right away) these guys are going to have more room to work. They just weren't ready to step in as true frosh and be game changers.
 
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Freeman Ara

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He needs to learn to relate to the players as kids not as millionaire NFL professionals. If he is too stubborn to change, I wouldn't count on him making it to the end of his contract.

CW is not a rah rah guy, I wouldn't expect his personality to change much. I do think he needs to get some coaches that are motivaters and rah rah guys, to offset his personality. And at some point as a player you have to realize your playing major college football for perhaps the most storied program and get yourself motivated.
 

jonesman

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Clausen & BCS,
I agree with you both. CW's offense is way too hard for kids who have 20 hours a week to learn. Further, he needs to get some college help, not NE help. His tendencies are soooooooooo predictable. Defenses have to almost be laughing at the man who calls himself an offensive genius. How many times yesterday did you know what was coming?? Almost every play. Hey Stonebreaker, some of these kids been in this system for 3 years, others for 2 and they still look slow in running the plays. Did anyone else watch many of the other games yesterday?? Notice how fast developing their plays are compared to ours. Our kids are not that slow, they plays are. Charlie better do some serious fixing next season or it will be his last.
 

Win4Gipper

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I dont think he should change his personality.....how often are we going to have ONLY young talent. As the team matures the young talent will come in and be able to see how the older guys are getting it done and wait for their turn to step in. When you have the oldercore the younger core can see that a coach laying into you does not mean be hesitant to make mistakes.
He said he was going to have a nasty football team on day one. I love his tough attitude and think it helps bring the most out of a mature team because they understand the passion behind the attitude.
 

jonesman

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We had a mature team last season. Did you see nasty?????? NOT. Did you see improvement 2005 to 2006 with a very mature team and very very mature QB. NO!!!!!!! If anything, they regressed in 2006. We had worse losses. Our OL went backwards. We needed miraculous and somewhat lucky comebacks to avoid a 4 loss regular season. Sorry guys, but CW is to blame for alot of this years issues.
 
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Moostache

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I watched Missouri and Kansas run the same offense last night (granted its VERY different than Weis' pro-style attack) but they each ran the same basic 5 or 6 plays and neither defense could stop it.

I was amazed that Mizzou could ROUTINELY pick up 6 and 7 man blitzes WITH A 5 MAN LINE and NO RBS!!!! The pass routes were routinely 7-12 yards and the catches were almost always made with the WR having a chance to do something with the ball after the catch - whether in stride or in front of defenders giving the receiver a chance to juke and move after the catch. ND's passing attack mysteriously did not feature the slant to Kamara except for ONE HALF (against Purdue, where it was nearly unstoppable). Most ND completions happened to receivers un bad positions or simply unable to do anything after the catch anyway....mystifying....

When Missouri ran the ball, they opened enormous holes to allow their RB to look like an All-American and when he WAS hit, it was usually by ONE MAN and not half the opposing defense (as was the case all year for ND). It made me mad at first...thinking what the hell?!?!? Why can't ND do anything remotely like this? And then it hit me...Missouri, and Kansas for that matter, seemed to run about 10-15 different plays TOTAL - and it has worked all year - most explosive offense in the nation is Missouri - having never been held UNDER 31 a game....a mark ND only reached once, in 3 OTs no less...

Their players seemed so much faster than ND's (and so have out opponents all year) because while ND is thinking on the field and TRYING to remember their assignments and a complex play name, the players for KU and UM were simply running very simple assignments and attacking the defense wherever the mistake or mismatch was.

Now, I do not advocate ND junking the entire offense and installing a true spread offense, but they must be able to identify those core plays that they CAN run with some success. In 2005-2006, we saw the offense run several things very consistently - draws to Walker, screens to Walker, fades to Shark and Mo and Rhema, quick hitters to Mo and Shark, slants to just about anyone and seam routes to Carlson and Fasano. PA at the goal line was also inordinately successful given ND's lack of a credible power running threat in the red zone (save Powers-Neal briefly).

This year was a disaster from week 1 through week 13. They ran almost NOTHING consistently well all year, with the lone exception of the delayed handoff, misdirection off-tackle play that both Hughes (Stanford and Duke) and Aldridge (MSU, Navy) ran with some success. Why Armando Allen wasn't given a few more chances at running THAT play is beyond me - neither Aldridge nor Hughes had the necessary break away speed to take that play the distance, even though on their longest runs it sure seemed like a faster back like Allen would have scored on those runs.

The lists of needed improvements are not wrong...they just omit the fact that NCAA teams do not need NFL length playbooks - especially as freshmen and sophomores - in order to be dominant on offense. I believe that cutting the playbook by a third would help next year exponentially over this year...
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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We had a mature team last season. Did you see nasty?????? NOT. Did you see improvement 2005 to 2006 with a very mature team and very very mature QB. NO!!!!!!! If anything, they regressed in 2006. We had worse losses. Our OL went backwards. We needed miraculous and somewhat lucky comebacks to avoid a 4 loss regular season. Sorry guys, but CW is to blame for alot of this years issues.

Last year can be largely attributed to the lack of speed and talent on defense. There is a reason why CB was brought in. I see nasty in Laws, Smith, and Bruton. I think that trend will continue as the talent infusion progresses.
 

Win4Gipper

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I agree that Weis deserves some of the blame but I think there are a lot of factors that go into blame on this season and his rough approach is not one of the things that need to be changed.
 

Clausen2Kamara

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Jonesman and Moos, I agree with ya both. CW does need 2 change up his playcalling and call more slants and posts. They are more hard 2 cover as a DB. I know this cuz I did play DB in HS and it was much harder to cover. 2 things come to mind why CW didn't do more of this. He didn't believe his WR's were running their routes correctly or he didn't want JC to throw into coverage and rish a pick. Hopefully with a more seasoned JC next season we will see more of these routes....especially the slant. It is not that hard 2 run and it is a solid 5 yards at least.
 

piyachi

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Stone - I think Bruton is the true mold of what we are looking to see in the future of our D being nasty. He just lays the wood on people, and he can cover a lot better than Ndukwe could.

The system is not inherently flawed, nor is the way Charlie interacts with the kids.

a - This year and the 'seam' are a one time thing. I think there will be some residual effects next year but we wont have to worry about a team of freshman and sophomores any time soon.

b - 19-6 - If Charlie was a one trick pony I think the second year would have begun to expose it. This year is AWFUL but I think the playcalling just looks terrible because of mitigating factors.

c - Wrinkles - Really what makes any offensive system a success isn't how complicated or simple it is - people make both win. For Weis' system to be effective, we need to install some things that are going to take time to understand. Now that the year is over it's a moot point because we won't have to play people that don't yet understand that we snap on three, much less a trap block.

Ok I could go on but the important thing IMO is time. Time for players to learn and bulk up. Things are never as good or bad as they seem.
 

jonesman

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Piyachi,
I will take issue with your points. I see you point out the 19-6 and how the second year would have exposed it. I think we saw that. We had do come from behind on two games and got blown off the field by both high level competition we played. I think this definitely showed there may only be one trick in the pony. You say it will take time for the kids to understand the system. Well, many of these kids have been in the system for atleast 2 seasons and some this was there 3rd. If they can't get it figured out in a season, it is too damn complicated for 18 year olds.
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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Are we forgetting the fact that were were going to a spread offense with DJ at the helm? We probably spent a hell of a lot of time on that in the offseason.
Also, we have a new DC with a new scheme.

Let's show some patience folks!
 

piyachi

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18 year olds aren't any less intelligent than a lot of NFL players. I will agree that if someone can't understand it within 3 years, then yes it is too complicated. Quinn and co managed to soak it in quickly though. My point is that people are saying that the system is too complicated, then lamenting how we run the same play all the time (not saying this is you - just in general). Weis runs a pretty simple show, it's the wrinkles that add firepower (and more complication) to our offense. I don't think that he is giving them too much, but you cannot make up for lack of reps and experience.

As for the blowouts/comebacks - In most of those games our offense wasn't what was losing us the game (really only in the UCLA game, and they had a fantastic D). We needed to score waaaay too many points to keep up (at least 30 in each game) and that isn't Weis playcalling that is hurting us there. Again seems this (hopefully) is resolved after replacing Minter with Brown, so we put ourselves in a position to win, not hang on.
 
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goldenlid

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I think jonesman is right about the players not getting it, because the system does work look at the Pats they run the same thing and it looks like no one can stop them. The big diffence is that in the NFL those guys live football. CW and his staff need to get the players that will fit into the system and so far it looks like they have not done and great job at that. The Pats last year had the same system and they looked bad but this year they look good with the right players in the system. CB came in and got a player he felt fit into his system in B.Smith and he has shown he can play.
 

jonesman

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Guys,
Remember one very significant comment made by the Irish defensive players before the season. "Minter's defense was so complicated that many times we were lost in the complexity. Corwin has simplified things and we can fly to the ball and use our instincts." HMMMMM, could we not say the same for CW and his offensive scheme being to complex and the kids can't let there talent take over???????
 

piyachi

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What about it is complicted? I'm not saying this to be contentious, I just legitimately want to know. Having seen the BGS breakdowns of our running plays it seems almost overly simplistic. We have about 7-8 plays and the ones that get used more have about 2-3 options on how you use them. Very basic. Anyone who could qualify for ND academically should be able to understand that.

I'm not a guru, so maybe there is something there I just don't see or understand. Everyone says it is complicated but I don't see the basis for the assertion.
 

NDame77

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I agree with piyachi. I don't see how some people can say Charlie is preditable in his play calling, and go right back and say his offense is too complicated. The whole point of making an offense more complex and complicated is so that it isn't predictable.
 

goldandblue

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If it was that complicated, Quinn and Co. could never have soaked it up so well in one year.
 

jonesman

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Yes the playcalling is vanilla. It is all the little wrinkles that he puts in the system which are complicated. It has been stated that the players playbook is like a phone book. Simplify the plays and let the guys run them. It is like Minter the year before. It was a very complicated D, but you do not see what the complication is for the player. We just see guys out of position and getting beat. This is just like our O, it appears slow developing and we are missing assignments.
 

fortwayne_nd

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We had a mature team last season. Did you see nasty?????? NOT. Did you see improvement 2005 to 2006 with a very mature team and very very mature QB. NO!!!!!!! If anything, they regressed in 2006. We had worse losses. Our OL went backwards. We needed miraculous and somewhat lucky comebacks to avoid a 4 loss regular season. Sorry guys, but CW is to blame for alot of this years issues.


I agree about the regression in 2006. Way too much flipping the ball and running the mouth. The 2005 game against USC was truly Notre Dame football. After the loss to OSU, I thought the team would work hard over the off-season and come back committed to take the next step. But it didn't. Maybe they were satisfied. And if BQ hadn't been a stud, their record would have been much worse in 2006. Anyway, the hype surrounding CW and Notre Dame in 2005 and 2006 is gone.

There is so much blame to go around, I won't go into it. Next year will be telling to see who (coaches and players) wants to distance themselves from 2007's performance. Having one of the worse records in the history of the program should provide some motivation.
 

fortwayne_nd

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"One of the great traditions of college football was resurrected last year. Notre Dame re-emerged as a national power, winning eight of its first nine games and breaking into the final top-20 rankings for the first time in seven years. The Irish owe their success not to luck but to their cocky and clever little coach, Lou Holtz. And Holtz isn't satisfied yet. 'Our objective in 1988 is perfection. Anything short of that is unsatisfactory.'" - Playboy 1988 Pigskin Preview.

Now, that is a worthy goal. Lou gets ND football.
 

johnnd05

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Yes the playcalling is vanilla. It is all the little wrinkles that he puts in the system which are complicated. It has been stated that the players playbook is like a phone book. Simplify the plays and let the guys run them. It is like Minter the year before. It was a very complicated D, but you do not see what the complication is for the player. We just see guys out of position and getting beat. This is just like our O, it appears slow developing and we are missing assignments.

I am absolutely baffled at all this criticism of Weis's offense. The guy completely re-wrote the ND record books in nearly every offensive category in his first two years, and how he's supposed to change the playbook? I'm perfectly willing to say that he should have simplified it for /this/ year, but there's no reason why next year's players shouldn't have a handle on everything he's asking them to do.
 

Clausen2Kamara

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I am absolutely baffled at all this criticism of Weis's offense. The guy completely re-wrote the ND record books in nearly every offensive category in his first two years, and how he's supposed to change the playbook? I'm perfectly willing to say that he should have simplified it for /this/ year, but there's no reason why next year's players shouldn't have a handle on everything he's asking them to do.

I agree John, he should have simplified his scheme this year but next season most of the important pieces of our offense are coming back and there should be no excuse for our O not to execute CW's gameplan. He showed in his first 2 years that if the O can understand and execute what he is trying to do, then they will excel. It will depend a lot on the development of these key players in the off-season. If they actually want to try hard and learn all of the intrucusies of CW's O or just go through the motions.
 

kjones

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I think people seriously underestimate how much of an effect an OL that has not "gelled" can have on the identity of a team. Knowing the scheme and being able to execute it are completely separate animals. I think people also underestimate the psychology of a team that loses it's first several games in completely ugly fashion. Then even the guys that "get it" are second-guessing everything which leads to more mistakes and missed assignments. Add that to a constantly changing depth chart without many established starters, and almost no experience at most positions, and you have a downright terrible season. Especially if all the teams you play are decent enough to make you pay for all your mistakes.

CW's scheme works, I think there plenty of evidence for that, especially because the scheme is based on matchups, and retains flexibility in the face of different defenses. The problem really lies in the things listed above, and the coaches not getting the fundamentals ingrained before moving on to finer things.

Any way you look at it, this season was just a perfect storm of problems, but I don't think any of them are related to the scheme.
 
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