A tail of two teams

[georgetwn]

After seeing Illinois upset Ohio State, I was wondering how they compared with ND. Ron Turner had left Illinois in horse sh*t shape, so I compared recruiting classes since 2003:
2003 ND 12 Illini 30
2004 ND 37 Illini 50
2005 ND 40 Illini 51
2006 ND 8 Illini 30t
2007 ND 8 Illini 20
These rankings came from rivals. The only difference I can make out is coaching. CCW has brought in talent, as did to a certain extent CTW, (at least better than Illinois), but the results aren't there. That has to do with coaching.
So we can keep blaming CTW for this mess, yes he does deserve some of the blame for it, but Coach W and staff have to shoulder blame also, because it looks as if Zook is outcoaching him

 

[johnnd05]

It's a worthwhile comparison to make. Illinois has benefited from a bunch of JC transfers, though, and I don't think those are included in the rankings.

 

[SoCalDomer]

Something to keep in mind about the upsets this year (Illinois over Ohio, Stanford over USC, App State over Mich, etc). If those teams played 10 times in a given year, the underdog probably loses 8-9 times out of 10. Let's not overstate what Ill, Stanford, App State has done. They haven't become top 10 teams, they played well and upset a better team. It requires good coaching, good execution and good game planning to do so. But the talent divide will keep those teams from beating top teams on a regular basis. However, you raise an interesting comparison.

The recruiting history of CW and TW with has been discussed ad nauseum. Not many people here are blaming Willingham while letting CW off the hook for the woes we've faced this season.

Look at it this way. The former chef (whose job included restoking) failed to place future orders to keep the kitchen stocked with enough ingredients and high quality ingredients. By not doing his job, the effects will be felt sometime down the road; there's no way to make up for the missing orders. That doesn't excuse the chef who takes over from putting a terrible finished product out on the table. It may not be 5-star dining, but it should still be edible.

 

[BeatSC]

I say we get Chef Ramsay in here to kick -ss! It has certainly felt like Hell's Kitchen this year. Zook has outcoached CW this year, who hasn't? With that said, give him another year. I think the team lost yeasterday. Eliminate dropped passes and fumbles yedterday and we could have won that game. Still, we're not exactly shooting for the stars. What is Marty Schottenheimer doing?

 

[SoCalDomer]

Ha ha, great BeatSC. I've watched that show because my wife puts it and didn't think about it with my kitchen analogy.

 

[teamalaska]

After seeing Illinois upset Ohio State, I was wondering how they compared with ND. Ron Turner had left Illinois in horse sh*t shape, so I compared recruiting classes since 2003:
2003 ND 12 Illini 30
2004 ND 37 Illini 50
2005 ND 40 Illini 51
2006 ND 8 Illini 30t
2007 ND 8 Illini 20
These rankings came from rivals. The only difference I can make out is coaching. CCW has brought in talent, as did to a certain extent CTW, (at least better than Illinois), but the results aren't there. That has to do with coaching.
So we can keep blaming CTW for this mess, yes he does deserve some of the blame for it, but Coach W and staff have to shoulder blame also, because it looks as if Zook is outcoaching him

One thing to keep in mind is that Zook's young guys have been playing for two years while Charlie had Brady's class that kept the younger guys off the field for a couple of years. Zook had his crap years the last two when Juice/Mendenhall, etc. were getting their reps and working out all the bugs. Ten games into the season, ND just now figured out who our QB is. Not to let Charlie off the hook too easy...this last game was the most unimpressed I've ever been with the overall team effort this year. I think if they had played with even "one tenth of the heart of Ruettiger", they would've killed AF. That being said however, I think most of us who have been following recruiting for a while predicted that Zook would do exactly what he's doing now---and what he did while at Florida: put together solid recruiting classes, play solid enough to upset big teams occasionally, but be inconsistent enough to lose to 3-4 teams he should beat. Starting next year when Illinois can no longer hide under the radar, you'll see them consistently 8-3 or 7-4, which I'm sure if fine by Illinois fans. Just don't expect to see him in the title game anytime soon. With Charlie, I get the feeling that as the level of play improves, the team's performance will be very professional and consistent...just getting to that point will take a longer time because Charlie isn't as good as a Zook and pulling the emotional strings on a team to get them up for big games.

 

[jonesman]

Folks,
Stop making excuses for CW and our situation. First, you want to say that Illinois is using a bunch of JC transfers. Well, I only see 1 on the first team depth chart. Then you state how if they play OSU 10 times they lose 9. Well, they also managed to beat PSU, Wisconsin and took UM down to the wire. They are not getting throttled by anyone. As for ND having Brady the last couple years and the other youngsters getting no chance to play. Shame on CW for not developing those kids. Are you telling me that he could not get many of these kids some PT during our games. Finally, you say how the Illinois fans are happy with 7-8 win seasons. Well, I see folks already saying that 7 wins next season is OK in South Bend. Look at our schedule and look at our talent and tell me that 7 wins is acceptable.

 

[wahoo]

Illinois is improved because they are effective this year in running the spread offense. Williams and #5 (running back) are perfect for that kind of offense. Defensive coordinators are having fits trying to stop the spread. ND does not have the right people to run the spread.
Also the Illinios LB had a "killer" game against OSU. I haven't seen good LB play on ND...just spurts. Maybe one of the young freshman will develop into the headhunter which is what I think the defense needs

 

[BeatSC]

I think Brian Smith is the Guy

I think Brian Smith is the Guy

He is your candiate for head hunter/enforcer. He was the last minute replacement recruit that we picked up at the last minute last year because of all of the defections at the Army All American game. He looks really good. The whole team needs to put on at least 10lbs. of muscle (except Schwaap). The D plays too much zone. I think it takes away from the aggression.

 

[johnnd05]

He is your candiate for head hunter/enforcer. He was the last minute replacement recruit that we picked up at the last minute last year because of all of the defections at the Army All American game. He looks really good. The whole team needs to put on at least 10lbs. of muscle (except Schwaap). The D plays too much zone. I think it takes away from the aggression.

That's not why Smith was picked up; it was because Minter didn't want him for the 4-3 scheme, but Brown liked him and wanted to go after him when Minter was fired.

 

[kjones]

Folks,
Stop making excuses for CW and our situation. First, you want to say that Illinois is using a bunch of JC transfers. Well, I only see 1 on the first team depth chart. Then you state how if they play OSU 10 times they lose 9. Well, they also managed to beat PSU, Wisconsin and took UM down to the wire. They are not getting throttled by anyone. As for ND having Brady the last couple years and the other youngsters getting no chance to play. Shame on CW for not developing those kids. Are you telling me that he could not get many of these kids some PT during our games. Finally, you say how the Illinois fans are happy with 7-8 win seasons. Well, I see folks already saying that 7 wins next season is OK in South Bend. Look at our schedule and look at our talent and tell me that 7 wins is acceptable.

Jonesman, I don't think anyone did any of the things you just stated. John is the one who mentioned JC transfers merely as an addendum to the recruiting rankings, I think he hardly qualifies as a CW supporter/defender these days . Did anybody even say much about defending Weis? Are there any people left who think he hasn't done a very sub-par job this season? I don't really think so. But there are people who think he can do better than he did this year, and these are the people who are still optimistic. But that doesn't mean ALL mitigating factors are completely false. This season really has been a perfect storm of problems, from the top to the bottom.

So basically, just because people bring up other issues, doesn't mean they are defending Weis. I think most would agree he's kinda beyond defense, at least for his performance this year.

 

[johnnd05]

Jonesman, I don't think anyone did any of the things you just stated. John is the one who mentioned JC transfers merely as an addendum to the recruiting rankings, I think he hardly qualifies as a CW supporter/defender these days . Did anybody even say much about defending Weis? Are there any people left who think he hasn't done a very sub-par job this season? I don't really think so. But there are people who think he can do better than he did this year, and these are the people who are still optimistic. But that doesn't mean ALL mitigating factors are completely false. This season really has been a perfect storm of problems, from the top to the bottom.

So basically, just because people bring up other issues, doesn't mean they are defending Weis. I think most would agree he's kinda beyond defense, at least for his performance this year.

Kjones, you just made me smile ... quite the accomplishment these days. Nicely done.

 

[kjones]

I try to put things, shall we say, diplomatically. Sometimes less is more, if you know what I mean. Too many people underestimate the effect of understatement. I'm glad you're not one of them.

 

[WaveDomer]

http://cache.deadspin.com/images/2006/05/ronzookreadytorock.jpg

This should answer any Ron Zook questions.

 

[KamaraPolice]

Sometimes a team just doesnt show up. Hell, look at UCLA, they lost to...

 

[KamaraPolice]

This should answer any Ron Zook questions.

thats what i like in a coach, a cool dude.

 

[SemperIrish]

Folks,
Stop making excuses for CW and our situation. First, you want to say that Illinois is using a bunch of JC transfers. Well, I only see 1 on the first team depth chart. Then you state how if they play OSU 10 times they lose 9. Well, they also managed to beat PSU, Wisconsin and took UM down to the wire. They are not getting throttled by anyone.

You're mis-quoting people and taking what they say out of context. No one said Ohio would beat Illinois 9 times out of ten. He said the underdogs (which included other teams) "probably" lose 8-9 times. Even if they only beat them 6-7 times, it shows you who the better team is. Beating PennState is no great feat. We were only down 17-10 going into the half and by all appearences they should have mopped the floor with us. The top teams in the Big 10 (um 11) have played schizophrenic this year, as have many usually good teams. Illinois has benefitted from poor showings from the other teams and themselves playing good solid fundamental football.

I don't read anyone making excuses. There are a bunch of factors to consider when comparing two teams.

 

[SoCalDomer]

I'd like to clarify that Illinois seems to be a program on the rise. I'm just not convinced they've arisen to a top program based on this year. What they have shown is much improvement. Next year they could be a surprise team like Rutgers in 2006 or South Florida this year. But if you notice Rutgers seems to be a last year phenomenon. Whether SFlorida has more than one good year will yet be seen.

Hopefully next year we rise to the competitive level Illinois has shown. Hopefully the year after that we compete with and beat top level teams.

 

[wahoo]

I'd like to clarify that Illinois seems to be a program on the rise. I'm just not convinced they've arisen to a top program based on this year. What they have shown is much improvement. Next year they could be a surprise team like Rutgers in 2006 or South Florida this year. But if you notice Rutgers seems to be a last year phenomenon. Whether SFlorida has more than one good year will yet be seen.

Hopefully next year we rise to the competitive level Illinois has shown. Hopefully the year after that we compete with and beat top level teams.

One of the reasons Illinois improved so much is because of the QB. Last year he was a freshman and made a lot of mistakes....he learned from them and is running that spread offense very well. The spread offense is a nightmare to college defensive coaches. maybe in a few years someone will come up with a way to stop it. Right now it is the "in" thing in college football. That is why that QB from PA is being highly recruited.

 

[kmoose]

After seeing Illinois upset Ohio State, I was wondering how they compared with ND. Ron Turner had left Illinois in horse sh*t shape, so I compared recruiting classes since 2003:
2003 ND 12 Illini 30
2004 ND 37 Illini 50
2005 ND 40 Illini 51
2006 ND 8 Illini 30t
2007 ND 8 Illini 20
These rankings came from rivals. The only difference I can make out is coaching.

And it's simply not possible that there is something there that you can't make out, right?