The BIG Recruiting lie told here.

marv81s · Nov 5, 2007

post count doesn't matter, if it was the other way around, he still wouldn't know what he is talking about when it comes to the subject of recruiting

ITellTheTruth · Nov 5, 2007

GoshenGipper said:
Let's see, which year is this?

Oh, it's 2007

Which class has ND been recruiting all year, in fact it goes into 2006 as well?

Oh that's right the class of 2008!

Thank you for proving how little you actually know. Thanks for playing, GoshenGipper FTW!

Score +1

Hey genius. The 2005 class is Weis's, not Ty's. Ty was fired with over a month left for recruiting. Saddling him with a class that he couldn't recruit for over a month is BEYOND RIDICULOUS. Pull your head out before you hurt something. It isn't Ty's fault that Weis was coaching the Pats, it is Weis's.

Get a clue.

johnnd05 · Nov 5, 2007

ITellTheTruth said:
Really? Then why was Weis flying all over the country during the playoffs and Super Bowl to recruit for the 2005 class? Was it just for practice?

I don't even know where to begin to respond to this kind of asininity. But perhaps the following will help:

1. Weis was named ND's new head coach in JANUARY (or maybe December).
2. At that time the recruiting class Willingham had assembled was piss-poor.
3. National Signing day is at the start of FEBRUARY.
4. Charlie Weis had, shall we say, a few other responsibilities in the interim (see: Super Bowl).

My goodness, I can't believe I am defending Weis YET AGAIN. You flamers need to go away and let me wallow in my misery.

GoshenGipper · Nov 5, 2007

Here

GoshenGipper said:
ITellTheTruth said:

As to his recruiting, I restate my original opinion. He is ALLEGEDLY a good recruiter. Frankly, I don't give a crap what Rivals or someone else says about HS kids who commit to ND. Until those rankings translate into wins, they mean NOTHING.

Charlie has brought in 3 years of so called stellar recruits yet this is one of the worst teams in the country this year. Plenty of other programs have had way WORSE recruiting rankings for the past 10 years in a row and they don't look nearly as horrible as this team.

Click to expand...

I'm going to take issue with that. CW hasn't had three years of recruits, no matter what the Mark May's of the world say. This current class of HS Sr.s will be his third class almost the entire Jr. class was recruited by Willingham and when CW was hired he had about a month left to recruit. His first class wasn't great, but it did lay a solid foundation. Where it was really lacking was that it was more about quantity than quality but that couldn't be helped because ND needed bodies, badly. Plus two four star QBs have transfered from that class, as well as a four star TE, and a four star OG because they were passed on the depth chart. Last year's class wasn't as large but it had much greater quality and I think that's starting to show. The next class that is comming in is the consensus #1 class in the country, no matter you grade/judge a class.

As far as evaluating talent goes how much do you really expect freshman and sophmores to contribute. Yes some will play early, but in a program that is going stong most of them will never see the field untill they're upperclassmen. People like Urban Meyer, Pete Carroll, and Jim Tressel woun't be after the same guys if they weren't talented.

GoshenGipper said:
georgetwn said:

You really can't use that as a valid argument. Last year, Nick Saban was hired by Alabama with about a month left, and he managed to turn in a top 15 recruiting class. I hate to say it, but coach Weiss will not lead us back.

Click to expand...

Alabama also already had a decent class put together, in addition to having the ability to accept recruits with lower grades and test scores as well as Junior College transfers. Plus if you remember CW had two jobs at the time he was still the OC for a team on the way to the Super Bowl. He even lost one four star WR because the WR told him he wouldn't come to ND unless CW personally showed up to meet him on a specific day which he couldn't do because of his job with the Pats. So you're really the one that doesn't have a valid argument. Wow, great 1st post!

marv81s · Nov 5, 2007

ITellTheTruth said:
Hey genius. The 2005 class is Weis's, not Ty's. Ty was fired with over a month left for recruiting. Saddling him with a class that he couldn't recruit for over a month is BEYOND RIDICULOUS. Pull your head out before you hurt something. It isn't Ty's fault that Weis was coaching the Pats, it is Weis's.

Get a clue.

and you just showed your f'n flat out lack of knowledge about how recruiting works even more with this latest post

how in the hell do you expect a coach to build a relationship with an elite recruit in just one month, in addition to planning for the superbowl?

it takes a long time to build a relationship with a recruit, that is why you start at the beginning of their junior year. Weis was flying around just trying to save what was left of the class after Ty got fired, and doing his best to get what he could.

You know less than nothing about how recruiting works, if you even knew that you knew nothing that would be something, but you don't

i suggest you go to this board and post there

ESPN.com - NCAA - Notre Dame Fighting Irish Message Board

johnnd05 · Nov 5, 2007

ITellTheTruth said:
Hey genius. The 2005 class is Weis's, not Ty's. Ty was fired with over a month left for recruiting. Saddling him with a class that he couldn't recruit for over a month is BEYOND RIDICULOUS. Pull your head out before you hurt something. It isn't Ty's fault that Weis was coaching the Pats, it is Weis's.

Get a clue.

Hmm ... we could either:

1. Blame Willingham for a class that he was able to recruit for ELEVEN (edit: I should have said seventeen) months, and which was already ranked VERY low at the time of his firing; or
2. Blame Weis for a class that he was (not) able to recruit for ONE month.

Faced with those options, the sane go with (1). You, apparently, don't deserve that appellation.

Of course there's also:

3. Share out the blame between the two of them based on the respective amounts of time that they had.

In that case, though, there is once again no debate among the sane as to where the lion's share goes. Want to get your head checked?

GoshenGipper · Nov 5, 2007

ITellTheTruth said:
Hey genius. The 2005 class is Weis's, not Ty's. Ty was fired with over a month left for recruiting. Saddling him with a class that he couldn't recruit for over a month is BEYOND RIDICULOUS. Pull your head out before you hurt something. It isn't Ty's fault that Weis was coaching the Pats, it is Weis's.

Get a clue.

. Blame Willingham for a class that he was able to recruit for ELEVEN months

Not to get too picky john, but it was 17 months. Sept '03 - Jan '05

So Ty recruited them for 17 months and CW got 1 and it's not fair to saddle them to Ty?

You didn't do very well in math did you?

17 > 1 = I win

SillyIrish · Nov 5, 2007

Check out Ty at Washington I think ND made the right move.

GoshenGipper · Nov 5, 2007

SillyIrish said:
Check out Ty at Washington I think ND made the right move.

Don't forget how he left the Stanford program. His recruiting efforts there contributed to Walt Harris's firing.

jonesman · Nov 5, 2007

Hey Truth,
If Charlie is to be saddled with the 2005 recruiting class when he was hired in December, why do you look on Rivals or Scout and see schools already having 2/3 of their classes filled by November 1. OHHHHHH that's right you start recruiting these kids in the summer between their Junior and Senior years. If you wait until December of their Senior year to recruit them, you get the scrap heap left. Charlie ran around the country trying to hold the few bodies that Ty had recruited and begging a few others to jump on board. To show you how pathetic Ty's efforts were in recruiting. Ty had to be convinced Ndukwe to offer Brady Quinn a scholarship. Ty did not even want him. TY is an IDIOT for a recruiter. Talk to any single knowledgable person around recruiting and they will tell you that when Charlie was hired he had almost ZERO ability to affect the 2005 class because most athletes of any talent had made their decision. Truth, get your facts in line before you start spewing nonsence.

SoCalDomer · Nov 5, 2007

ITellTheTruth said:
Hey genius. The 2005 class is Weis's, not Ty's. Ty was fired with over a month left for recruiting. Saddling him with a class that he couldn't recruit for over a month is BEYOND RIDICULOUS.

Offers for new recruits can go out September 1, two years before they would be admitted. For example, the recruits in the 2008 class (meaning they begin ND in Summer of 2008) could have been offered as early as September 1, 2006. Recruits for the class of 2009 started receiving official offers September 1, 2007.

So the recruiting class for 2005 could have been offered as early as September 1, 2003. The recruits would most likely commit sometime in 2004 through national signing day of early 2005. (we had 17 or 18 recruits for 2008 before Summer of 2007) The offers and lists of recruits would have been compiled long before December 2004 when Ty was fired. If a school showed little or no interest until a month or so before national signing day, the likelihood of landing that recruit is very low. Remember, the majority of ND's 2008class commited more than a year before they were going to start going to school there! There were likley a lot of recruits who were already committed elsewhere that could not be recruited by the time Weis began recruiting in 2005, for the 2005 class.

Thus, you can see that no coach starts recruiting the last month before national signing day, the recruiting begins much earlier. If you can't see that Willingham is more responsible for the 2005 recruting class than Weis, I can't help you.

But I'm quite amazed about you starting this whole thread to begin with. I became a member at the beginning of October of this year, but read the boards prior to that time. Since the start of this season, arguments blaming Ty have been on the decline to the point of nonexistent. It may come up in a post or two as a joke, but not many people on here continue to bring up Ty or his poor recruiting as the reason for us losing games as badly as we are.

If you dislike Weis fine. But trying to flame him in the area of recruiting is not based on facts.

IRISHDODGER · Nov 5, 2007

ITellTheTruth said:
What are you talking about? The 2005 class is not Ty's. HE WAS FIRED in 2004!

I liked it better when you went w/ the Southern Avenger handle.

Much like recruits shouldn't choose a school based solely on the HC, a fan shouldn't choose a university to root for based on the HC. Coaches are hired to be fired.

Enough w/ the recruiting rankings. Marv & Goshen have forgotten more about ND recruiting than you'll ever know & they could care less who the coach is provided that coach takes ND to the NC.

Here's what you have to ask yourself if you are truly an ND fan. Do you really think Coach Willingham would have had at least the same amount of success as Coach Weis had w/ Ty's recruits in '05 & '06?

Keep in mind that Brady was still a raw physical talent who wouldn't be at ND were it not for his buddy Ndukwe who insisted that Willingham's staff take a look at a kid who was desperate for an opportunity to QB at ND. Then all of the sudden, the switch magically gets thrown after Weis is hired & he breaks every passing record at ND?

What about Fasano, Carlson, Samardzjia, Ndukwe, Stovall, McKnight & Walker? Ndukwe was a WR, but Weis & staff moved him to Safety where he played well enough to draw an NFL paycheck this year. Fasano flourished enough under Weis that he could forgo his 5th year to be drafted in the 2nd round. Shark never had a TD reception before Weis. Now he holds almost every receiving record. Had Willingham gotten the production out of Stovall & McKnght that Weis did, he may have never been fired. Same goes for DWalk.

Surely, all these aforementioned players didn't magically put it all together in Weis's first year w/o Weis having nothing to do with it. With that logic, USC should have given Paul Hackett two more years b/c Carson Palmer was average, at best, before Poodle & Norm Chow came to LA.

Not one single ND fan in his right mind will avoid putting the onus on Weis for this season's failures (and there's plenty of those). That doesn't mean they all want him fired.

After all, Willingham was allowed two non-winning seasons before being shown the door. It's only fair that Weis get the same treatment. Dontcha think?

Ty had one good year w/ Davie's recruits
Weis had two good years w/ Ty's recruits
Ty failed to get above .500 for two seasons
Weis failed to get above .500 for one season...so far.

Finally, how 'bout them Washington Huskies? Remember, you can't blame Ty's failures at UDub on recruiting.

GoshenGipper · Nov 5, 2007

ITellTheTruth said:
Your statement is factually incorrect. According to Scout as noted above, he had 2 good recruiting classes and one that was ranked 30th. That isn't 2 horrendous classes.

When you misstate the facts it just points out how weak and ridiculous your position is.

:idea:

Man I love irony! :rofl:

ACamp1900 · Nov 5, 2007

ITellTheTruth said:
Listen pal, you can't have it both ways. Either the recruiting rank matters or it doesn't. It certainly isn't Ty's fault if his highly regarded recruits were busts - they were after all highly regarded recruits and that seems to be the only thing you care about. That is my entire point. Recruiting rankings are voodoo science at best. Yet, you hold them sacred when the kids are highly ranked, but when it doesn't translate onto the field you look for other excuses to obscure the point that perhaps rankings aren't the end all be all. As illustrated by the many teams I listed who had worse recruiting classes than Notre Dame every year from 2002-2007, but still managed to win.

I am far from arrogant, I just know that to blame Ty's recruiting for a 1-8 Weis season is GARBAGE. I won't allow that argument anymore because it is completely BOGUS.

It's not about blame... YOU are making it about blame... it's about valid reasons that we are having this type of season... and yes, the recruiting from the last two years under Ty are one of many BIG reasons the season is as bad as it is when you consider the the fact that many if not ALL of the players who made those classes anywhere near the top fifty in any recruiting ranking are no longer with the team... our junior and senior classes are next to non-existent... does that mean Ty is a demon??? no. Does that mean CW has no acccountability here? no. but it is worth taking into account, and now I ask you... why are you so strongly defending Ty and attacking CW?? there are valid reasons to this season that lie on both...

ACamp1900 · Nov 5, 2007

ITellTheTruth said:
As to his recruiting, I restate my original opinion. He is ALLEGEDLY a good recruiter. Frankly, I don't give a crap what Rivals or someone else says about HS kids who commit to ND. Until those rankings translate into wins, they mean NOTHING.

This deserves to be said as well... you base your attack on recruiting numbers... the same ones you yourself "don't give a crap about"

I don't stand for people unjustly attacking Ty... but there is NOTHING wrong with saying Ty didn't recruit while at ND and that that is a big reason for our current problems...

GoshenGipper · Nov 5, 2007

I just can't get enough of this thread. I was really pissed off at the time, probably as argumentative as I've been in a long time on a message board. But I've reread it several times now because I start laughing my head off every time at the sheer loonacy of his arguments and how bad he was called out and powned.

AHH, I love it, I love it, I love it! :rotflmao:

teamalaska · Nov 5, 2007

ITellTheTruth said:
Everyone who starts to make excuses for Charlie always talks about the lousy recruiting classes Ty left him. Now, I don't follow recruiting all that much because I have always thought it was a bit of voodoo science to evaluate kids that young as potential GREAT football players. I have always preferred to judge a team on actual wins and losses as opposed to highly touted recruiting classes - call me crazy.

However, since I heard so much about it and since it is ALWAYS used as an excuse I just did some research.

Here is what I found. Since 2002, Notre Dame has recruited VERY WELL. That's right. I was shocked too. How can it be you say, that ruins all of our excuses. The problem is that it is the truth.

Scout.com gives the following ranking for Notre Dame's recruiting classes:

2002: 13th in the nation
2003: 5th in the nation
2004: 30th in the nation
2005: 27th in the nation
2006: 5th in the nation
2007: 11th in the nation

Now think about that. Should a team with that much talent be losing to Navy at home who had unrankable recruting classes. Should they be getting blown out by Michigan and USC?

2004 & 2005's classes weren't great for sure, but they weren't 1-8 horrible. Ty's 2002 and 2003 classes closely mirror Charlie's 2006 & 2007.

Here are some teams who had worse recruiting classes than Notre Dame for 2004 & 2005:

Georgia Tech
Missouri
Wisconsin
Mississippi
Boston College
South Florida
Illinois
Rutgers
Pittsburgh
Kansas State
Colorado
West Virginia
Louisville
Mississippi State

Just to name a few. Now, knowing this - can you still blame recruiting? Because if you can, you can't see the forest through the trees my friends.

One point that I haven't heard come up is how the discrepancy between the talent levels in Ty's '02/'03 and '04/'05 recruiting classes actual made the problems we're seeing today worse. In a way, it almost would've been better for the current team if the '02/'03 classes were also ranked in the 30th range so that the '04/'05 players would've had a chance to work in on the field. This is much like you see in the list of teams above that supposedly had worse classes than ND (GT, Missouri, etc.), which consistently get 30th-ish ranked classes. As it was, the '04/'05 players weren't good enough to really get into the mix as long as the '02/'03 group was around. Therefore, instead of having a smooth progression of mostly seniors/juniors playing while the freshman/sophomores gained experience, you basically had BQ's class taking all the snaps until they all left, leaving a bunch of 30th-ish ranked guys playing for the first time. Doing that is almost like putting them in as freshman and sophomores (see Mike Turovich, Paul Duncan). So as "highly ranked" as those '04/'05 classes were, they could never expect to compete even with similarly rated (or lower even) classes from the GT's, Mizzo's, etc., who have had a couple of years to work into the mix. I think every year you see great teams come out of the woodwork (Kansas, others) because they have an experienced--albiet not highly rated--group of guys. In a lot of cases, a 4-5 star freshman/sophomore equals a 2-3 star junior/senior, all other things being equal. Obviously, not everyone fits that bill, and many times you get freshmen that compete like seniors, but for the most part an experienced guy is going to outplay an inexperienced but higher-rated guy. I think this is even more pronounced when those highly-rated freshmen/sophomores are surrounded by even more inexperienced guys, which is what we're seeing with ND this year. I think once you see those 4-5 star guys become experienced, and other 4-5 star guys work into the mix, then you start building the dynasties that USC has (or had, depending), where they're consistently at the top year in and year out. Granted, that doesn't mean they can't screw up a game or two (see Stanford), but for the most part, I think the general consensus is that we will see the wave of consistent talent really come through in the next year or two. And while not everyone may agree with some of CW's calls in the Navy game, he is pretty unconventional, which I think actually makes him a more promising coach once that talent settles in. Now, that unconventionality makes him look like a dumbass because his players don't know what to do. CW is definitely going through some head coaching growing pains, but for the most part, I think (and perhaps many others might agree) that he's heading in the right direction. In the big scheme of things, it's not like we were going for a NC this year, so in CW's mind, anything less is pointless. Yes, it would've been nice to beat Navy, but would a kind and loving God really let that poor team suffer for another 43 years? I think starting next year, we'll see a new era in ND football that we haven't seen since the early 90's. No more one or two BCS years and out...I think Charlie will have us there consistently from now until he either dies of a heart attack or retires. Hopefully, a few of those will be NC's.

kjones · Nov 6, 2007

I think ITTT went into his troll hole. You know how they are, they pop out to bother the little billy goats gruff, and when the big ones come out, they scurry back into their holes to wait and scheme. All the while thinking that they really are the smarter breed, and that they just don't want to take the time to "deal with" lesser minds. Anyway, dealing with it would require thought, and that is SO beneath them.

IRISHDODGER · Nov 6, 2007

kjones said:
I think ITTT went into his troll hole. You know how they are, they pop out to bother the little billy goats gruff, and when the big ones come out, they scurry back into their holes to wait and scheme. All the while thinking that they really are the smarter breed, and that they just don't want to take the time to "deal with" lesser minds. Anyway, dealing with it would require thought, and that is SO beneath them.

So true. Shit never changes.

irishwavend · Nov 9, 2007

I read the first post, and that is it; but it ultimately comes down to this: You're a moron. Recruiting is not just about rankings, but about needs and retaining those players. How many are still on the team? How many contribute? How many panned out? How many of those are at critical positions. Understand the game in full, including recruiting before making us dumber with a post like this. You sound like the pick and choose liberal media.

KamaraPolice · Nov 9, 2007

blah, bad thread, not even going to read the rest of post #1. Come on, look whats out there, you know damn well there's going to be problems with 6-7 true freshman starting or getting heavy playing time and 6-7 more guys who were in high school two years ago. Give this team another year to show improvement off of this year. Don't base stuff of last years team.

KamaraPolice · Nov 9, 2007

irishwavend said:
I read the first post, and that is it; but it ultimately comes down to this: You're a moron. Recruiting is not just about rankings, but about needs and retaining those players. How many are still on the team? How many contribute? How many panned out? How many of those are at critical positions. Understand the game in full, including recruiting before making us dumber with a post like this. You sound like the pick and choose liberal media.

great post, until the end :/ . But we're all friends, even if we disagree on disagreeing.

IRISHDODGER · Nov 9, 2007

KamaraPolice said:
great post, until the end :/ . But we're all friends, even if we disagree on disagreeing.

The end was the best (& truest) part! :wink:

GoshenGipper · Nov 9, 2007

irishwavend said:
I read the first post, and that is it; but it ultimately comes down to this: You're a moron. Recruiting is not just about rankings, but about needs and retaining those players. How many are still on the team? How many contribute? How many panned out? How many of those are at critical positions. Understand the game in full, including recruiting before making us dumber with a post like this. You sound like the pick and choose liberal media.

KamaraPolice said:
blah, bad thread, not even going to read the rest of post #1. Come on, look whats out there, you know damn well there's going to be problems with 6-7 true freshman starting or getting heavy playing time and 6-7 more guys who were in high school two years ago. Give this team another year to show improvement off of this year. Don't base stuff of last years team.

You guys should read the whole thing. It's pretty funny how bad he got powned.

Irish52 · Nov 9, 2007

There are many factors that contribute to the present state of ND football ills. Noone disagrees that past recruiting, transfers, coaching, shedule, player experience, etc. are all a part of our current state of affairs. But, realistically, most agree that Charlie's play calling or lack thereof, is the top factor to our demise. I suggest, ever so strongly, that Charlie get himself an offensive coordinator immediately following this season.

Sureal · Nov 9, 2007

ITTTTTT(whatever) got banned, thank God and whomever did it.

Easton Pa ND Fan · Nov 9, 2007

FYI: Winning vs Recruiting (Rival # vs Win %)

FYI: Winning vs Recruiting (Rival # vs Win %)

The Irish roster is loaded with freshmen and sophomore
starters. I suspect this is a much higher percentage
than most D1 teams. Normally, these two classes be-
gin to appear (as starters) in their junior and senior
years. Normal player development and experience takes
that long. ND's situation is acute, if you have the
raw talent you start. No time for developing your funda-
mentals, it is strictly on the job training. Why?

A lack of talent and numbers in the normally starting
junior and senior classes. Rankings, as expressed in
Rivals annual team recruiting points, give some in-
sight. Note the Rivals numbers for the 2007 season
seniors and juniors and compare it to the current win
percentage...Tom

<pre>Seasn - 2005 2006 2007 Win % - .750 .769 .111 Senr# - 1570 1756 0820 Junr# - 1756 0820 0661 Soph# - 0820 0661 2190 Frsh# - 0661 2190 1932 </pre>

GoshenGipper · Nov 9, 2007

Sage said:
ITTTTTT(whatever) got banned, thank God and whomever did it.

That'd be me

Sureal · Nov 9, 2007

Thank you kind sir!!!

JeremyND07 · Nov 9, 2007

GoshenGipper said:
That'd be me

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