ITT I tell you the truth about ND football

[ITellTheTruth]

That's right. I am going to tell you the unbiased truth. Some of you may want to hear it and some of you may not.

Some of you will hate me because I am not a rah rah ND homer no matter the cost. That is all fine. I expect it. You are entitled to your view and I mine.

So, let's get to it.

Charlie Weis is not going to be a great coach. He doesn't have it in him. The sooner this is accepted the better off we will all be. He was outcoached all over the field yesterday by Paul Johnson. That isn't an opinion, that is a fact. Paul Johnson played with athletes not 1/2 as talented as Notre Dame's and played against a line that had a 50 lb advantage per man. And what did he do with that disadvantage, he coached his way to making it an advantage.

Charlie may be a good recruiter - we'll see if these alleged GREAT classes translate into wins on the gridiron - but he is not impressing anyone as a game day coach. He bragged of revolutionizing the offensive game and he put out a team that is one of the worst offensive teams in the history of the NCAA.

Charlie's affiliation with Tom Brady and New England made him stand out among a lot of the candidates interviewed for the ND job, but I am now more convinced than ever that he was not the mastermind behind those teams. In fact, it is becoming increasingly more clear that he might not have been all that involved at all.

Great coaches adapt and this guy doesn't.

So, the question becomes when is enough, enough?

If he loses 2 of the next 3, which I truly think he will, is it not time to eat the $$$ and move on? We fired Ty after 3 and quite frankly he never, never looked as bad as Weis has this year. Brady Quinn may have masked Charlie's ineptness until this year, but it is as clear as day now.

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

Went there on your first post, didn't ya.

 

[Junkhead]

Went there on your first post, didn't ya.

At least he did it without profanity and all. I have to admit, I'm seriously doubting the coaching staff right now as well.

 

[Timugen]

Went there on your first post, didn't ya.

Take out the emotions dredged up by the implications of the Ty reference and there really isn't a whole lot to argue with in that.

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

I'm not arguing with him at all. The confidence in CW is gone until things get changed around. I'm not blaming the players for this loss. ES is not the answer, and it is not his fault that DJ (he is not DD to me anymore) and ZF didn't work out.

I can't believe I watched our defense play the same throughout the game as they rolled us up. Someone said that the yardage against us wasn't bad, only around 300 yards or so, but.......it is when you only have a few possessions.

 

[wahoo]

At least he did it without profanity and all. I have to admit, I'm seriously doubting the coaching staff right now as well.

I'm in agreement with you. I haven't seen any progress by this team at all

 

[wahoo]

I can't believe I watched our defense play the same throughout the game as they rolled us up. Someone said that the yardage against us wasn't bad, only around 300 yards or so, but.......it is when you only have a few possessions.

When was the last time the Irish defense had a 3 & out?

 

[loomis41973]

When was the last time the Irish defense had a 3 & out?

Each team only gets so many and our offense uses them all. ; )

 

[quiksilver253]

Umm so your saying our offense sucked but yesterday, we didnt punt once, yesterday it was out defense's inability to stop the option which was at fault. Idk how u can pin this one on charlie.

 

[kmoose]

I'll argue with him. Not because I have a bunch of facts and figures to dispute his claims, but because I think it is too early to talk about firing Weis. And I think there are other options that maybe can settle the issues, without getting rid of a guy who can obviously recruit with the best of them.

One thing that hasn't been thrown out much: What if Weis hires an Offensive Coordinator? He could still work with the Quarterbacks, and spend even more time with them, while someone else handled the day to day operation of the offense. Maybe someone who will be able to motivate these kids? You would still have Weis and his Super Bowl rings as the face of the program, and (providing you get a quality guy) ND would be back to it's winning ways. So Charlie would be able to recruit like a madman. He seems to have found a quality Defensive Coordinator in Corwin Brown. So what makes us think he couldn't find an offensive guy? Plus...........what makes any of us think that Clausen's struggles aren't the result of being rushed into action on a not quite healed elbow? Maybe he sets the place on fire next year? I haven't seen much to indicate he will, but look back at Carson Palmer's first few years at USC. He was a scrub. Then something finally fell into place for him, and he ended up a Heisman winner. Same thing with Troy Smith at tOSU, and probably either Dennis Dixon at Oregon, or Matt Ryan at BC. The comparisons to Ty's tenure are meaningless. Weis' recruiting alone makes the two situations completely different.

 

[quiksilver253]

and btw no its not time that we eat the money and move on, he's got a 10 year contract which is massive. he isnt going anywhere

 

[kmoose]

Umm so your saying our offense sucked but yesterday, we didnt punt once, yesterday it was out defense's inability to stop the option which was at fault. Idk how u can pin this one on charlie.

The defense did what it has been doing all year long. It played well enough for us to win the game. The offense did not. We should have put 40+ on Navy. The defense only gave up 21 points in regulation. They didn't play a great game, but they played well enough to win, with a competent offense.

 

[Sir John]

Clausen rushed into action? My God every thread in August stated JC should start. Everyone wanted JC to start. I was hammered by every board by saying NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. They all made me out to be a JC hater. How quickly you guys forget what you said just a few months ago.

 

[ITellTheTruth]

I'll argue with him. Not because I have a bunch of facts and figures to dispute his claims, but because I think it is too early to talk about firing Weis. And I think there are other options that maybe can settle the issues, without getting rid of a guy who can obviously recruit with the best of them.

One thing that hasn't been thrown out much: What if Weis hires an Offensive Coordinator? He could still work with the Quarterbacks, and spend even more time with them, while someone else handled the day to day operation of the offense. Maybe someone who will be able to motivate these kids? You would still have Weis and his Super Bowl rings as the face of the program, and (providing you get a quality guy) ND would be back to it's winning ways. So Charlie would be able to recruit like a madman. He seems to have found a quality Defensive Coordinator in Corwin Brown. So what makes us think he couldn't find an offensive guy? Plus...........what makes any of us think that Clausen's struggles aren't the result of being rushed into action on a not quite healed elbow? Maybe he sets the place on fire next year? I haven't seen much to indicate he will, but look back at Carson Palmer's first few years at USC. He was a scrub. Then something finally fell into place for him, and he ended up a Heisman winner. Same thing with Troy Smith at tOSU, and probably either Dennis Dixon at Oregon, or Matt Ryan at BC. The comparisons to Ty's tenure are meaningless. Weis' recruiting alone makes the two situations completely different.

Whose job is it to recognize that a new offensive coordinator is necessary? I think you know the answer to that question and someone's EGO will never allow that to happen. You are in a DREAM world if you think otherwise.

As to his recruiting, I restate my original opinion. He is ALLEGEDLY a good recruiter. Frankly, I don't give a crap what Rivals or someone else says about HS kids who commit to ND. Until those rankings translate into wins, they mean NOTHING.

Charlie has brought in 3 years of so called stellar recruits yet this is one of the worst teams in the country this year. Plenty of other programs have had way WORSE recruiting rankings for the past 10 years in a row and they don't look nearly as horrible as this team.

So stop giving this guy a free pass unless you tell me when you are going to hold him accountable. Next year? The year after? You tell me when enough is enough.

And don't even tell me the comparison's to Ty are meaningless. Ty had plenty of flaws, but he never was this bad on Saturdays. NEVER.

 

[kmoose]

Clausen rushed into action? My God every thread in August stated JC should start. Everyone wanted JC to start. I was hammered by every board by saying NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. They all made me out to be a JC hater. How quickly you guys forget what you said just a few months ago.

I didn't say that I never said he should start. But, my calling for him to start does not mean that he wasn't rushed into action on a not quite fully healed elbow. An important point is also that we were all being told that he was "full go", which I think now was perhaps not entirely true. All I'm saying is that maybe his elbow wasn't fully healed, and that accounts for his seeming lack of arm strength? I've said this before......I have a good friend who is an official in SoCal. He did a couple of Clausen's game, and his opinion is that Clausen was deserving of all of the hype, that he was THAT GOOD. This guy knows football. I have no reason to doubt him whatsoever. So, based on that, I think something is not quite right in Jimmyville, and the obvious (but not only) explanation is that the elbow either isn't healed, or his arm strength is just not what it once was.

 

[ACamp1900]

Whose job is it to recognize that a new offensive coordinator is necessary? I think you know the answer to that question and someone's EGO will never allow that to happen. You are in a DREAM world if you think otherwise.

As to his recruiting, I restate my original opinion. He is ALLEGEDLY a good recruiter. Frankly, I don't give a crap what Rivals or someone else says about HS kids who commit to ND. Until those rankings translate into wins, they mean NOTHING.

Charlie has brought in 3 years of so called stellar recruits yet this is one of the worst teams in the country this year. Plenty of other programs have had way WORSE recruiting rankings for the past 10 years in a row and they don't look nearly as horrible as this team.

So stop giving this guy a free pass unless you tell me when you are going to hold him accountable. Next year? The year after? You tell me when enough is enough.

And don't even tell me the comparison's to Ty are meaningless. Ty had plenty of flaws, but he never was this bad on Saturdays. NEVER.

Honestly Ty looked just as bad with better talent... remember he BARELY beat Navy on a miracle FG... easily could have gone either way like yesterday... he got blown out just as much and wasn't recruiting a lick... also we have great freshman and spohmores... but next to zero upperclassmen leadership that also isn't on CW... and those teams who have next to Nothing in the upper classes do look horrible WITHOUT playing USC, Michigan and others... and do lose close games to teams like Navy

I'm not a Ty basher, I have said many times he's a good man and I won't root against him unless he plays ND or KU... and I'm not a CW homer either... BUT what you said there is a great case of selective amnesia

 

[johnnd05]

Umm so your saying our offense sucked but yesterday, we didnt punt once, yesterday it was out defense's inability to stop the option which was at fault. Idk how u can pin this one on charlie.

Sorry, but the offense DID suck. 3.7 yards per carry? 4 sacks? That was an AWFUL performance against a defense that bad.

NOBODY deserves to have that loss pinned on him as much as Weis does. What a disaster, at every level.

 

[ITellTheTruth]

Honestly Ty looked just as bad with better talent...

I have amnesia? Please point me to the season where Ty was 1-8 about to be 2-10 and lost 5 straight home games (likely to be 6).

Because I don't remember it. Also, let's pretend in Ty's 3 years he had 2 decent recruiting years (Top 20)and 1 horrible one. By horrible I mean in the top 35. Should a team that had recruits in the top 20, top 20, top 35, top 10, and top 10 lose to Navy? Should they also be 1-8?

As I said before, I'm not big on these HS rankings, but if you are going to believe in them as you suggest you do, please explain how Charlie is getting his butt outcoached with kids that would have been recruited at every top 30 school in the country.

Thank you in advance for your answer.

 

[kmoose]

Whose job is it to recognize that a new offensive coordinator is necessary? I think you know the answer to that question and someone's EGO will never allow that to happen. You are in a DREAM world if you think otherwise.

As to his recruiting, I restate my original opinion. He is ALLEGEDLY a good recruiter. Frankly, I don't give a crap what Rivals or someone else says about HS kids who commit to ND. Until those rankings translate into wins, they mean NOTHING.

Charlie has brought in 3 years of so called stellar recruits yet this is one of the worst teams in the country this year. Plenty of other programs have had way WORSE recruiting rankings for the past 10 years in a row and they don't look nearly as horrible as this team.

So stop giving this guy a free pass unless you tell me when you are going to hold him accountable. Next year? The year after? You tell me when enough is enough.

And don't even tell me the comparison's to Ty are meaningless. Ty had plenty of flaws, but he never was this bad on Saturdays. NEVER.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. I've already advocated what the AD's response should be, to this season: "Coach, you have two choices. Hire an Offensive Coordinator this offseason, or win 10 games next year. If you hire an Offensive Coordinator, we will allow a season to get him and get things rolling. If not, and you don't win 10 games, there will be no 2009 season for you at ND."

He IS a good recruiter. In the sense that he is getting some of the top kids to come to ND. I think what you are saying is that he might not be a top flight evaluator of talent. I happen to agree with you on this. Jim Tressel took a bunch of 3 star guys that he recruited, and turned them into undefeated National Champions. But the actual measure of a recruiter, in my mind, is convincing the kids you want, to come to your school.

I would say "firing" him as Offensive Coordinator is holding him accountable. You must not think so. Difference of opinion. I think you are wrong, but I respect your opinion.


I never said anything about comparing Charlie and Ty, as individuals. I said comparing their tenures is meaningless. At the end of Ty's three years, we had a bad team with little to no hope for getting better, based on the rankings of his recruiting classes. There also was a steady decline in the play on the field. We had a coach who stubbornly tried to turn Carlyle Holiday into a West Coast QB, who routinely featured Ryan Grant in the running game, when it was plainly obvious to anyone who watched ND football that Julius Jones was the better back (I'm inclined to give him a pass on the Ryan Grant/Julius Jones thing, since Grant was a returning 1,000 yard rusher, but want to point out that Grant gained his 1,000 yards on over 250 carries, for a very pedestrian <4 yards a carry). After three years of Weis, we have a horrible team, that very suddenly became horrible, but has a lot of hope for the future, with the recruiting classes he is bringing in. He has given both QBs (in fact, all three, counting Demetrius Jones' start against GT) an opportunity to "be the man", and seems to be more focused on production, when it comes to handing out starting assignments. He took three players who languished under the previous coaching staff (Quinn, Stovall, and Samardzija) and turned them into stars. I think Ty Willingham is a great man. I have heard some people question his commitment to recruiting, vis-a-vis golfing, but I have nothing bad to say about the man.

 

[ACamp1900]

I have amnesia? Please point me to the season where Ty was 1-8 about to be 2-10 and lost 5 straight home games (likely to be 6).

Because I don't remember it. Also, let's pretend in Ty's 3 years he had 2 decent recruiting years (Top 20)and 1 horrible one. By horrible I mean in the top 35. Should a team that had recruits in the top 20, top 20, top 35, top 10, and top 10 lose to Navy? Should they also be 1-8?

As I said before, I'm not big on these HS rankings, but if you are going to believe in them as you suggest you do, please explain how Charlie is getting his butt outcoached with kids that would have been recruited at every top 30 school in the country.

Thank you in advance for your answer.

sure...

He never went to two BCS bowls either... Ty had a team the Davie stocked with talent... remember Davie couldn't coach but he could recruit... and Ty got blown out just as much and looked just as bad on offense at times... not in one year but in all three... again with better overall talent... CW does deserve a TON of heat here but the comparrison to Ty IS unfair to BOTH... I do feel it's a point worth making...

Also, two things matter in cfb... recruiting and coaching... the teams that have been in the top five ever year over the last five or so years... LSU, USC, Teaxs and Florida... that's no coincidence... so in my mind with OR without cw... notre dame's future looks a lot brighter after year three of CW then it did after year three of Ty.

 

[ITellTheTruth]

Desperate times call for desperate measures. I've already advocated what the AD's response should be, to this season: "Coach, you have two choices. Hire an Offensive Coordinator this offseason, or win 10 games next year. If you hire an Offensive Coordinator, we will allow a season to get him and get things rolling. If not, and you don't win 10 games, there will be no 2009 season for you at ND."

He IS a good recruiter. In the sense that he is getting some of the top kids to come to ND. I think what you are saying is that he might not be a top flight evaluator of talent. I happen to agree with you on this. Jim Tressel took a bunch of 3 star guys that he recruited, and turned them into undefeated National Champions. But the actual measure of a recruiter, in my mind, is convincing the kids you want, to come to your school.

I would say "firing" him as Offensive Coordinator is holding him accountable. You must not think so. Difference of opinion. I think you are wrong, but I respect your opinion.


I never said anything about comparing Charlie and Ty, as individuals. I said comparing their tenures is meaningless. At the end of Ty's three years, we had a bad team with little to no hope for getting better, based on the rankings of his recruiting classes. There also was a steady decline in the play on the field. We had a coach who stubbornly tried to turn Carlyle Holiday into a West Coast QB, who routinely featured Ryan Grant in the running game, when it was plainly obvious to anyone who watched ND football that Julius Jones was the better back (I'm inclined to give him a pass on the Ryan Grant/Julius Jones thing, since Grant was a returning 1,000 yard rusher, but want to point out that Grant gained his 1,000 yards on over 250 carries, for a very pedestrian <4 yards a carry). After three years of Weis, we have a horrible team, that very suddenly became horrible, but has a lot of hope for the future, with the recruiting classes he is bringing in. He has given both QBs (in fact, all three, counting Demetrius Jones' start against GT) an opportunity to "be the man", and seems to be more focused on production, when it comes to handing out starting assignments. He took three players who languished under the previous coaching staff (Quinn, Stovall, and Samardzija) and turned them into stars. I think Ty Willingham is a great man. I have heard some people question his commitment to recruiting, vis-a-vis golfing, but I have nothing bad to say about the man.

This is all fair and I agree with most of it, although you seem to say you get why Tressel can win without high ranking recruiting classes, but suggest Ty couldn't have. Fine, I disagree and would like to have seen him have a 4th year, but that is water under the bridge.

However, I don't see anyway possible that Weis will give up his play calling duties at the order of the AD. I just don't see it. The AD will have to fire him first.

 

[ACamp1900]

This is all fair and I agree with most of it, although you seem to say you get why Tressel can win without high ranking recruiting classes, but suggest Ty couldn't have. Fine, I disagree and would like to have seen him have a 4th year, but that is water under the bridge.

However, I don't see anyway possible that Weis will give up his play calling duties at the order of the AD. I just don't see it. The AD will have to fire him first.

Yeah despite the recruiting and on the field play... I still wonder if we should have let Ty play out the contract... but as you said... to late now

 

[ACamp1900]

I think Ty Willingham is a great man. I have heard some people question his commitment to recruiting, vis-a-vis golfing, but I have nothing bad to say about the man.

Yeah it bothers me when some take placing ND's current state in part on Ty to attacking his integrity and such... Ty is class

 

[SoCalDomer]

Umm so your saying our offense sucked but yesterday, we didnt punt once, yesterday it was out defense's inability to stop the option which was at fault. Idk how u can pin this one on charlie.

That's because we went for it on 4th down and you saw how well that turned out.

 

[quiksilver253]

The defense did what it has been doing all year long. It played well enough for us to win the game. The offense did not. We should have put 40+ on Navy. The defense only gave up 21 points in regulation. They didn't play a great game, but they played well enough to win, with a competent offense.

No it did not, the only reason that navy only scored 21 is because they had drives that were like 12 minutes long. the offense never punted

 

[GoshenGipper]

As to his recruiting, I restate my original opinion. He is ALLEGEDLY a good recruiter. Frankly, I don't give a crap what Rivals or someone else says about HS kids who commit to ND. Until those rankings translate into wins, they mean NOTHING.

Charlie has brought in 3 years of so called stellar recruits yet this is one of the worst teams in the country this year. Plenty of other programs have had way WORSE recruiting rankings for the past 10 years in a row and they don't look nearly as horrible as this team.

I'm going to take issue with that. CW hasn't had three years of recruits, no matter what the Mark May's of the world say. This current class of HS Sr.s will be his third class almost the entire Jr. class was recruited by Willingham and when CW was hired he had about a month left to recruit. His first class wasn't great, but it did lay a solid foundation. Where it was really lacking was that it was more about quantity than quality but that couldn't be helped because ND needed bodies, badly. Plus two four star QBs have transfered from that class, as well as a four star TE, and a four star OG because they were passed on the depth chart. Last year's class wasn't as large but it had much greater quality and I think that's starting to show. The next class that is comming in is the consensus #1 class in the country, no matter you grade/judge a class.

As far as evaluating talent goes how much do you really expect freshman and sophmores to contribute. Yes some will play early, but in a program that is going stong most of them will never see the field untill they're upperclassmen. People like Urban Meyer, Pete Carroll, and Jim Tressel woun't be after the same guys if they weren't talented.

 

[NDOM]

That's right. I am going to tell you the unbiased truth. Some of you may want to hear it and some of you may not.

Some of you will hate me because I am not a rah rah ND homer no matter the cost. That is all fine. I expect it. You are entitled to your view and I mine.

So, let's get to it.

Charlie Weis is not going to be a great coach. He doesn't have it in him. The sooner this is accepted the better off we will all be. He was outcoached all over the field yesterday by Paul Johnson. That isn't an opinion, that is a fact. Paul Johnson played with athletes not 1/2 as talented as Notre Dame's and played against a line that had a 50 lb advantage per man. And what did he do with that disadvantage, he coached his way to making it an advantage.

Charlie may be a good recruiter - we'll see if these alleged GREAT classes translate into wins on the gridiron - but he is not impressing anyone as a game day coach. He bragged of revolutionizing the offensive game and he put out a team that is one of the worst offensive teams in the history of the NCAA.

Charlie's affiliation with Tom Brady and New England made him stand out among a lot of the candidates interviewed for the ND job, but I am now more convinced than ever that he was not the mastermind behind those teams. In fact, it is becoming increasingly more clear that he might not have been all that involved at all.

Great coaches adapt and this guy doesn't.

So, the question becomes when is enough, enough?

If he loses 2 of the next 3, which I truly think he will, is it not time to eat the $$$ and move on? We fired Ty after 3 and quite frankly he never, never looked as bad as Weis has this year. Brady Quinn may have masked Charlie's ineptness until this year, but it is as clear as day now.

Wow. What a great post. I agree totally. He even did it without swearing one time. If I wrote this there would be a fu&k here and a fu&k there. Props to you dude.

 

[GoshenGipper]

Yeah despite the recruiting and on the field play... I still wonder if we should have let Ty play out the contract... but as you said... to late now

I honestly think our team would be half full of walk-ons.

 

[NDOM]

I'll argue with him. Not because I have a bunch of facts and figures to dispute his claims, but because I think it is too early to talk about firing Weis. And I think there are other options that maybe can settle the issues, without getting rid of a guy who can obviously recruit with the best of them.

One thing that hasn't been thrown out much: What if Weis hires an Offensive Coordinator? He could still work with the Quarterbacks, and spend even more time with them, while someone else handled the day to day operation of the offense. Maybe someone who will be able to motivate these kids? You would still have Weis and his Super Bowl rings as the face of the program, and (providing you get a quality guy) ND would be back to it's winning ways. So Charlie would be able to recruit like a madman. He seems to have found a quality Defensive Coordinator in Corwin Brown. So what makes us think he couldn't find an offensive guy? Plus...........what makes any of us think that Clausen's struggles aren't the result of being rushed into action on a not quite healed elbow? Maybe he sets the place on fire next year? I haven't seen much to indicate he will, but look back at Carson Palmer's first few years at USC. He was a scrub. Then something finally fell into place for him, and he ended up a Heisman winner. Same thing with Troy Smith at tOSU, and probably either Dennis Dixon at Oregon, or Matt Ryan at BC. The comparisons to Ty's tenure are meaningless. Weis' recruiting alone makes the two situations completely different.

What about Weis being the offensive coordinator and hiring a new coach? that sounds better to me.

 

[kmoose]

What about Weis being the offensive coordinator and hiring a new coach? that sounds better to me.

I'm not saying you, NDOM.......but a lot of people have been complaining about the playcalling. So why would you keep the guy on as the playcaller? I think maybe his business-like approach to the game may be not quite inspirational enough for the college game. I just don't know. I'm not at the practices and the meetings. If that is all that it is, then hiring an Offensive Coordinator who can fire the guys up ought to do the trick.