Give me reasons why the offense has sucked so badly ...

johnnd05

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I'm trying to put together a blog post going through all the reasons why the Irish offense has been so, well, offensive this year. Here's the list I've got so far.
  • Poor scheduling.
  • Poor recruiting.
  • Poor position coaching.
  • Poor head coaching.
  • Too much hype.
  • Too many distractions.
  • Tentativeness.
  • Bad play-calling.
  • Poor pass-blocking.
  • Poor run-blocking.
  • Failure to execute.
  • Inexperience.
  • Lack of talent.
  • Too much shuffling of the depth chart.
(Obviously many of these problems reinforce each other.)

What am I missing? Anything here that you think shouldn't be included? How would you rank these in importance? Your thoughts are appreciated ...
 

SoCalDomer

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I'm not sure if this would fit under coaching, but bad gameplanning. (The attempt to implement a hybrid spread option at the GT game has been discussed ad nauseum so I won't do so further). Getting away from the run too quickly would also be bad gameplanning.

I'm convinced winning requires the following, in order:

1) Game plan
2) Attitude
3) Coaching/Training
4) Execution
5) Talent

The upsets of this season have shown that lesser talented teams can win. I think those games can be attributed to having the top 4 things in order. Relying on talent alone won't win games.
 

johnnd05

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Thanks, SCD. Attitude is definitely a big one. Other thoughts, folks?
 
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buckeyebacker

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No harm intended....I think its merely a case of the guys lining up across from Irish offensive guys are just better...which i guess falls into the categories of talent and scheduling
 
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Moostache

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John -

My opinions are exhaustively present in other posts, but mainly the offense's problem boil down to the O-Line's complete ineptitude on virtually every playin the playbook.

Short version:

  • O-line play kills offense in general - no holes to run through, no time to pass and no ability to execute the pressure-relieving staples like screens and draws adds up to a toxic mix....
  • Lack of running game or passing game or ability to convert 3rd downs kills time of possession, forces too many 3rd and long situations (which are abject failures for most GOOD teams, and the kiss of death to bad or medicore units) and ultimately hangs the defense out to dry by not keeping them off the field enough. The snowball is rolling and picking up too much momentum to be stopped...
  • Combine the above factors with hesitant and inexperienced play at the QB and RB positions, play your first 8 games (all in a row with no off week) and against 6 or 7 of the total 40 defenses in the country and you get what we have seen to date...dead last in the nation in everything that matters offensively.
Longer, more rambling version:

Whatever the symptom or symtpoms of the offensive malaise this year, the bottom line always diagnosis comes back to the same thing - the offense is rancid because the play of the offensive line.

I just rewatched Nevin's UCLA highlights and on a couple of good runs by Aldridge you can actually see blocking that opened up holes to run through. He then hit those holes hard and seemed to have better straight ahead speed than Darrius as well. Then the WR or TE would miss a downfield block and the play would get 8 yards instead of the 20-30 yards we grew accustomed to seeing in the past few years. Bad blocking at the point of attack means the runs never get out of the backfield; bad blocking downfield means that a 6-8 yard run stays at 6-8 instead of making it into the second and third levels on the defense and picking up 20-25-30 yards. No better proof of this exists than watching ND's OLBs get swallowed up at times and leaving gaping holes in their wake...

The biggest problem is not RB talent - Aldridge, Hughes and Allen all have the ability to do great things at ND...in fact I also just watched the Nevin 2005 season highlight video and the 2005 USC clip (I dunno, I guess I needed my 'good' Irish offense fix today or something) and I would LOVE to see what any of those 3 could do with as much open field as either Darrius or Reggie Bush had to work with at times. The RBs on the team have not been given very much opportunity to show what they could do because not one in a million backs is good enough to run behind this year's ND O-Line. Maybe, just maybe Barry Sanders or Galye Sayers could average 80 yards a game with these stiffs, but it would probably take 25-30 carries for them to do it, let alone a SO or pair of FR players....

The same thing applies to the pass blocking! There have been multiple occassions this season where ND had a successful screen play set up (an essential cog in the Weis offense in '05 and '06) only to see the play get blown up when the O-Linemen in front of the ball whiff, fall down or worse both... Same thing again applies on several short yardage plays (just about every play we have run on 3rd and 2 or less or 4th down and short) with Schwapp more often than not hitting nothing but the ground as his assignment is crushing the ball carrier for no gain or a loss. He has stumbled and fell, glanced off of his man or just flat out whiffed too many times. It makes a great play and likely conversion for a first down turn into a "what the hell was he (Weis) thinking?" call....

I know there have been a few instances where bad playcalling contributes - no one and nothing is beyond reproach at this point; and I and others have attempted to illustrate the relative inexperience of the RBs, the WRs and the QBs as well...but after seeing OSU score a TD on 3rd and 12 on a flanker screen where their 2 blockers annihilated the PSU defenders and allowed the ball carrier to walk in untouched, I can't imagine that Charlie calls a screen play in similar situations EXPECTING the O-Line to whiff or utterly fail to execute their assignments...does the fact that Tressel's two O-Linemen did what they are supposed to do (and did not fall down or whiff suddenly) make his play call (or his OC's) smarter than Weis? I guess you can hang the lack of successful technique on Weis and the staff (Latina, Haywood is the OC in name right?!?!?) and a failure to adequately drill the fundamentals in practice, but at several points over the course of this season there have been ideal playcalls sent in that were just executed badly.

I am convinced that if our O-Line was even at the level of competence of LAST year's group (which was hardly a force of nature) that this year's Irish would be hovering around 3-5 or 4-4 (maybe even as crazy as sitting at 5-3 at this point - PU, MSU and either BC or PSU games could have been far different beasts with an offense that simply did not hurt itself constantly or just hang the defense out to dry).

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So, if the idea is to find reasons for the putrid offensive production it starts and ends with the O-Line. Sullivan has failed to effectively lead the youngsters. Young has failed to progress and if anything appears to be worse this year than in his freshman season (likely because no one is able to cover his mistakes for him now and he still makes a bunch of youth-related errors every game). The Sophomore class recuits have not proven themselves ready to take the mantle yet - whether through a lack of conditioning and strength or game experience or all of the above is not totally clear.

it is very distressing that not one man on the O-Line has shown very much heart, or taken the play to the whistle every down (again, is this a direct by-product of practice structure? if it is, then we should have seen a noticeable improvement after they went to harder hitting in practice...oh wait, we DID, but then the practice regiment was lightened again and contact not as severe and USC happened...is that all coincidence? I cannot say for sure)....that is another situation that the O-Linemen should be collectively embarassed about. Its one thing to get beat, its quite another to get beat and to just accept it or not ever seem terribly bothered by it.

Watch to see how many times ND linemen engage, get beat and quit on the play and contrast that level of play to the game winning drive against UCLA last year. The play BEFORE "the catch", the throw to Grimes for a first down at the 45, watch as Quinn roles out and picks up a diving block from a hustling O-Lineman that saves him from a sack and allows him to even get the ball off...How many times this year did we witness Clausen trying to do the same thing (roll out to buy time) only to be greeted by angry mobs (usually 2 but sometimes more) defenders? It also bothers me a great deal to very rarely see any of the linemen come pick up Jimmy after allowing him to get creamed - almost like they don't want to draw attention to the fact they just about got him killed again...that is a possible sign that Clausen never had the buy in of the line for him as a leader. THAT is a situation that simply must be addressed. I did not really see too much of it with Sharpley either...the O-line does not seem to take a whole lot of pride in their performance, a totally unacceptable situation for any football team...

Sometimes they get beat physically - think Clausen being sacked by the entire Michigan Defensive line... Other times they get beat mentally - think of all the ridiculous penalties and miscues that riddled the offense against PSU. Still other times it seems a combination of mental AND physical - think Sullivan firing shotgun snaps over the ehad of Allen AND Clausen on multiple occassions. Finally there is the distinct possibility that at least SOME of these 4-star and better recruits simply are not that good and lack technique necessary to compete with players of equal or better size and quickness....,maybe in HS they all got lazy because they could rely on a huge physical mismatch to compensate for their lack of technique.

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How good of a leader WAS Quinn for these Irish?

He certainly instilled a sense of belief in the team's chances from his junior year on....that aspect is clearly missing this year. Sharpley is the man now, but unless he is able to grab this team and drag them to the finish line with 4 victories, I can't see how he would beat out a healthy Clausen in the Spring (he could not do it last Spring). That leaves Clausen as the presumed man next fall...can he develop that "it" factor, that presence about him that elevates his teammates? A total unknown at this point....more grist for the mill...

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Its has been poor from the first snap of the season on, with very little interruption in the horror show. This complete lack of ability to run the ball, throw the ball or catch the ball leads to too many poorly executed plays and dead drives that are 3-and-outs, and it puts a defense back on the field constantly demoralized and progressively getting weaker as a game goes on. The exceptions to this trend have been: 2nd half against PU (where it briefly seemed that a comeback was possible), the first half of PSU (before becoming so fatigued that they were blown off the ball a good 6-7 yards on every run in the 4th quarter), and the UCLA game (where the defense simply kept generating turnovers in sufficient numbers to overcome a horribly inept offense yet again - there were 13 total points scored by the offense off of 7 turnovers, including 3 times giving the ball to the offense inside Bruin territory and twice inside the 10 - that game should have been at least a 35-6 or 42-6 win). If the only chance your offense gives you to get a win is a +6 turnover differential, then you are a a BAD offensive team...really bad.

One other side note and in defense of the O-Line vets like Sully and Young, watching Quinn in those 2005/2006 highlights he had AMAZING pocket presence and 'shiftiness' (moving just his shoulders to escape a pass rush) that NEITHER Evan nor Jimmy have shown to date. There are at least a dozen or more examples of Quinn side-stepping a rush to deliver a pass about 1-2 seconds after this year's QBs are already on the ground. That does not help the confidence of the O-Line at all. Quinn was masterful at keeping his eyes down the field and feeling the pass rush without having to see it, as a result he got the ball out of his hands so much faster than Evan or Jimmy that its almost depressing to watch - oh, who am I kidding, its totally depressing! Evan and Jimmy both suffer from the inexperience of playing QB at this level and therefore have a common flaw - they cannot recoginize the college open man as compared to the HS open man.

In HS ball, its obvious who the open WR or TE or RB is because there is usually a good 5-10 yards of open space around them! In D1 college, the DB is probably less than a step behind an open target. In the NFL, you have almost zero separation at times and it become a game of anticipation in addition to recognition. I saw Stafford of Georgia make an incredible throw against UF on Saturday, but what he did was really not much more than what Jimmy did with Golden at PSU or Evan did with him at PU...he gave the WR a chance to make a play on the ball. It has seemed to me that Sharpley has been more willing than Clausen to do this all season - and as a result he has put up more plays but also produced more head scratchers as well.

Whether ot not this is due to my own pet theory is debateable... Clausen has been injured and less than 100% all season and as a result is MORE hindered because in addition to having to adjust to recognizing the open man, he also has lingering doubts in his head about his physical ability to do what he sees - a truly deadly combination - hesitation piled on top of hesitation. This would explain how Jimmy could seem better in controlled practice situations than Evan. In practice at anything less than game speed this could very easily look to the coaches and observers as Jimmy being more accurate in his reads (avoiding more bad throws) while at the same time looking better because the D is hardly coming at him full go. In such situations, Sharpley almost certainly would look worse than Clausen...he is less accurate throwing (clearly seen in his gameplay to date) and he is less cautious with the throws he will attempt (also seen in game situations). The problem is that neither one (a gunslinging, inaccurate but brave Junior or an at-times timid and tender freshman) is a very good fit for success this year with virtually zero skill position experience around as well.

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It has been said on this and other forums all year...the end result (119th in the nation in too many categories to even think about) is the aftermath of the perfect storm....4 O-Line recruits ( 2 of which are so-so players on their best day to begin with) over the course of 3 YEARS 2003, 2004, 2005; sophomore and freshmen O-Linemen who are not ready to play physically at the D1 level (at least they don't appear to be to the naked eye), a near complete lask of leadership from the 5th year senior center, a total lack of execution of even the simplest of plays, and on and on....

To use an ackonwledged bad metaphor, ND's O-Line is the equivalent of the New Orleans Levies post-Katrina. The suffering and deaths and tragedies of that real human crisis could have been better controlled or contained with better levies than could have withstood the worst and held up until time allowed the worst to pass. In many ways, that is the ND O-Line...many of the things that plague this year's offense could have been lessened (maybe not totally removed, but made far less horrible) by buying time until the worst had passed. About 2 minutes into the GT game a very large lump grew in my throat that has yet to abate....this year's O-Line is like those post-Katrina levies - overrun.
 

goldandblue

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I'm not sure I'd put poor scheduling. This is Notre Dame, we should be able to compete with anybody. Or at least somewhat show up. I mean yeah sure it's harder for an offense to look good against a tough defense but they should still look like a div 1 offense regardless of the competition.

I guess my point is that whatever is wrong with offense has been wrong before the schedule started.
 
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johnnd05

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No harm intended....I think its merely a case of the guys lining up across from Irish offensive guys are just better...which i guess falls into the categories of talent and scheduling

I agree with you that there's a pretty substantial talent gap. But that doesn't even BEGIN to account for the full scope of offense's putridity, does it?
 

johnnd05

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Well done, Moostache. One quick point on Sam Young: I take it he had a wrist injury at the start of the year, which may be part of the reason for his struggles so far.
 

johnnd05

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Okay, so far I've got this list (in no particular order):

1. The schedule: no warm-up games; too many games on the road at the start of the season; all the easy opponents at the end of the year.
2. Poor recruiting: 'nuff said.
3. Poor position coaching: the offensive line is obviously the key example of this.
4. Too much hype: obviously Weis wasn't going to throw his players under the bus and say it was a rebuilding year, but did we have to believe him? We set the bar way too high with our expectations, and that put pressure on this team that they didn't need.
5. Too many distractions: e.g. Demetrius Jones's departure, but also the QB situation through the spring and summer.
6. Tentativeness: guys just look scared out there; they seem nervous to make mistakes.
7. Bad play-calling: I've argued that this is a bit overrated, but it can't be dismissed. In particular, the crazy scheming against GT and UM was obviously a mistake.
8. Poor pass-blocking: this doesn't pertain just to the linemen and tight ends, but also to the tailbacks and fullbacks. It goes far beyond problems with blitz pick-up.
9. Poor run-blocking: once again, this goes beyond the o-line - as was mentioned, the wide receivers haven't exactly been stellar in this department.
10. Failure to execute: dropped passes, missed throws, etc.
11. Charlie Weis: sorry Chuck, but you're probably #1 on this list. He did great with a veteran squad the past two years, but has done an AWFUL job getting this group ready to go.
12. Inexperience: obviously a bit problem, with NINE of the current starters on offense basically in their first year of significant p/t.
13. Too much shuffling of the depth chart: I've been over this a bunch already. The tailback position is the most blatant case.
14. All-around talent gap: this is definitely a big part of the story.
15. Penalties: lots of holding calls, false starts, etc.
16. Attitude: this group often gets discouraged when things go wrong instead of picking up their game.
17. Injures: Wenger, Romine, Clausen, Grimes, Aldridge, ...

Any more thoughts? One thing I need to do is put them in order of importance and chart the interconnections.
 

CNY_Domer

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As previously stated the lack of offensive production is placed (rightfully so) on the offensive line. However, I believe that this years team could have had more offensive production with offensive leadership. I believe that Moostache pointed out the absense of Quinn and the lack of leadership from Sully has hurt this years offensive line. I have yet to see this year a individual tired of getting smacked around stand up and do something about it. It come back to the classic saying "If you dont like getting smacked around do something about it." No one on the offensive line has exhibited that persona.
 

johnnd05

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As previously stated the lack of offensive production is placed (rightfully so) on the offensive line. However, I believe that this years team could have had more offensive production with offensive leadership. I believe that Moostache pointed out the absense of Quinn and the lack of leadership from Sully has hurt this years offensive line. I have yet to see this year a individual tired of getting smacked around stand up and do something about it. It come back to the classic saying "If you dont like getting smacked around do something about it." No one on the offensive line has exhibited that persona.

Nice. Can't believe I forgot the proverbial leadership. Make that #18 (again, in no particular order).
 
M

Moostache

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I agree with you that there's a pretty substantial talent gap. But that doesn't even BEGIN to account for the full scope of offense's putridity, does it?

I am not quite ready to accept the 'talent gap' at this point...the main reason behind my thinking is that we have supposedly talented players (based on their other college offers and the collective wisdom - for what thats worth - of the recruiting leeches...uh, I meant to say 'services')...lots of them too. Maybe we don't have the roster as stacked as in the glory days of Holtz (especially the Vinnie Cerato heyday) or even the Davie days (when we had constantly talented and poorly coached teams underachieve year in and year out); but we have had 2 classes loaded with talent in the Freshmen and Sophomore classes - and I would bet that those two combined classes have more collective accolades coming into college than all of the 4 classes at GT, PU, BC or MSU combined.

They are raw and began the season inexperienced and susceptible to hesitation and mistakes, but they did not come into ND as a collection of stiffs. Almost everyone wanted Clausen and Allen and Young. (aside - if Sam did have an unpublicized injury it would go a very long way to explaining his performance this season). Plenty of the "big boys" wanted Hughes or Neal or Darrin Walls. Anyone of those guys and more from the ND roster would immediately become the most 'talented' player at Purdue!

Talent gap? Only if by gap you mean that there was a very, very poor distribution and accumulation of overall talent under the last staff (back to the recruiting of only 3 offensive linemen in 3 years for Ty, as tired as that horse is I don't think its possible to beat it to death yet) and the balancing of talent among the 4 classes plus select 5th years is not really achieved yet. ND has more than enough talent OVERALL to beat BC, PSU, MSU, PU and GT - but this year they did not have nearly enough experienced talent to cover for the raw talent of the freshmen and sophomores who obviously are not quite ready for prime time this year...

The other talent gap is that our stud recruits have not had any real break-out moments yet...Sam Young has not gone into a game and utterly dominated anyone yet (at least not the way Jake Long does for UM), Armando Allen has not had a break out game or highlight reel worthy run (like lets just say Noel Devine or Joe McKnight - his recruiting class contemporaries), Clausen has not looked as good as Stafford did for UGa last eyar and is words away from what Colt McCoy did as a first time starter at Texas - even though McCoy seems to have dropped off quite a bit this year.

When we look at these guys, especially the game-breakers like Allen or Tate, its not just a lack of production versus their contemporaries that concerns me...its that they are not making plays period. Its one thing to be limited by an O-line like they have been, but if anyone is up for reliving the good old days, go watch some of the Rocket's highlights on You Tube...jaw dropping even as a freshman and usually in individual plays like PR's, KR's and even blocking kicks.

While I recognize that its hardly fair to compare Allen or Tate to Ismail after 8 games and draw any kind of definitive conclusions, I can say that they have not had any WOW moments - like Devine has at WVU or McKnight has at USC or certainly like Rocket had at ND in '88 - so far. I think I'd feel even better about next year if we see either one or both of those guys go off in the season's stretch run. A KR for a TD...a long run.....a couple of screens that actually get them into the second level and then some moves or some speed that take the play to the house...anything like that would almost eliminate the talent gap from my vocabulary heading into next year....

Some of that may seem inconsistent with my ramblings about the O-Line above, but I think its logically coherent to think that Allen should have at least one of those WOW moments in the closing four games if he is going to our 'home-run hitter' or 'lightning' at RB over the next 3 years to compliment the Hughes/Aldridge "power runner' or 'thunder'. I hope so, because watching those old highlights of Rocket made me sad to think how long its been since he played for the Irish...he may not be the best comparison to use because he remains THE most electrifying college player I have ever seen...but I think everyone would settle for a cheap knock off that could do 1/2 of what Rocket did in his career...
 
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Epitome

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I think the biggest problem is, this team has a riff right between the sophomore and junior classes. I said before that I can't quite put a finger on it, but something just isn't right on the team. I don't think every body feels like they belong on this team and I'm not sure that CW isn't to blame. For instance last week at practice he would release all the seniors and then keep the underclassmen back for fundamental drills. How are the players not going to feel shorted. The underclassmen probably think the seniors are lucky for getting out of practice early and the seniors probably think the coaching staff has given up on them. When your winning life is easy. When your losing sometimes you have to analyze the root cause and as hard as it may be implement corrective action.

Although I think CW is partially fault, I just can't put my finger on why this team is so divided.
 
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Moostache

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I think the biggest problem is team has a riff right between the sophomore and junior classes. I said before that I can't quite put a finger on it, but something just isn't right on the team. I don't think every body feels like they belong on this team and I'm not sure that CW isn't to blame. For instance last week at practice he would release all the seniors and then keep the underclassmen back for fundamental drills. How are the players not going to feel shorted. The underclassmen probably think the seniors are lucky forgetting out of practice early and the senior probably think the coaching staff has given up on them. When your winning life is easy. When your losing sometimes you have to analyze the root cause and as hard as it may be implement corrective action.

Although I think CW is partially fault, I just can't put my finger on why this team is so divided.

If that's true, let's hope that they keep having the recruits talk top the underclassemn then...

The junior class is going to be the red-headed step-child of the Weis era. They came in at the last minute and were seen as the 'worst recruiting class in 50 years at ND'. They were not all Charlie's guys...though he had to salvage what he could after Ty was removed from damaging things further. They collectively are underachieving well into their upperclass days (past the half-way mark of their junior season) and they are not a very distinguished group - most of them were lucky to dress for games in 2005 and 2006 and now in 2007 only Sharpley, Kuntz and Bruton have been key contributors this season.

Take guys like Grimes and Hord.....you think that there is no resentment in them that Kamara and Tate and Floyd are already being talked about as the core for the WR's next season? Quinn and Smith at LB have been an afterthought to Neal and Brian Smith since October started...not sure about Herring and McCarthy (though I'd bet McCarthy is not having too many ill feelings or his kid brother would likely have not committed to ND).

Its easy to see why some of the Juniors would feel put out, but if that's the case and those guys are preventing the team from really coming together, then the sooner they are out of eligibility the better for the program. Not everyone can be a starter, not every starter can be a star and not every star can make it to the NFL....there comes a time for almost every player to confront those realities and then its on them to make the best contribution they CAN from there. If Grimes and Hord are getting passed on the depth chart by youngsters, it may be a pretty bitter pill now but they could still become key contributors to a championship caliber team or they could become locker room poison that prevents it...their choice, but most ND fans remember the difference decades after a player has used up that eligibility. Role players in championship seasons are nearly as famous as the stars at ND. If that can't motivate them to contribute their best, then there's not much else to do but wait until they've gone after next year...
 

johnnd05

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I definitely don't think the problem is with guys like Grimes, Kuntz, or Bruton. But I do agree that this sort of dissension, and friction between the classes, might be playing a big role. Make that #19.
 
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buckeyebacker

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I agree with you that there's a pretty substantial talent gap. But that doesn't even BEGIN to account for the full scope of offense's putridity, does it?

Absolutely not. There are plenty of teams week in and week out that are completely outmatched talent wise and find a way to win or give themselves a chance to win late in ball games. I would also say a lack of execution would be another problem, because like I said many teams are outmatched but execute and give themselves a chance, plus this is the same offense that put up big numbers the last two seasons with good people, there shouldnt be this big of a drop off if they were simply executing their assignments and gameplanning correctly.
 
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Moostache

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I would also say a lack of execution would be another problem, because like I said many teams are outmatched but execute and give themselves a chance, plus this is the same offense that put up big numbers the last two seasons with good people, there shouldnt be this big of a drop off if they were simply executing their assignments and gameplanning correctly.

I' sorry but I can't give you much credence when the argument is that far from true....
This is definitely NOT the same offense from 2005 - 2006, its not even close and failing to acknowledge that kind of makes the rest of the argument weaker for it.

QB - big drop-off in experience, maybe in talent too, though the jury is out on that still - I mean Heisman finalist to child prodigy? Not even close and truth be told it would not have been even if Sharpley had some minor game experience from when he was backing up Quinn either...too severe a drop-off to ignore and even think the offense would be similar yet alone the same...

WR - HUGE drop-off in experience and production....Tate is fast and raw, Kamara is like Mo Stovall as a freshman - inconsistent and prone to dropping balls too much still, there is no one remotely close to the production of Shark over the last two years and Grimes has had injuries but even before that was showing himself to be a very capable slot WR and not much more...

RB - again a big drop off in experience from a 3-year starter to a HB-by-committee approach this year...the new guys also do not lock as well as Darius did and can't seem to pick up a blitz nearly as well...Aldridge and Allen can be something great in time (maybe) but they are not equal to Darius Walker in any way yet and have not been since the GT game...

OL is detailed through out this thread, but even though they may have more collective stars than the O-line of 2005, they come in with way less experience - the '05 line was THE most experienced EVER at ND - a HUGE, HUGE benefit to the Weis system in year one - those guys did not have to be taught everything over...this new line has prominently displayed that they DO need to be taught everything over...

I agree that a talent gap is not a primary reason for this years free-fall (my theory is more on a lack of experience and combination of other factors but not talent) but I disagree with the assessment beyond that...
 

goirish#1

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Well from my point of view it can be put into two catagories
1. O-line
2. Style of offense! If you don't have the type of players you need for a specific type of offense you need to call what they can run.
 

kjones

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Well done, Moostache. One quick point on Sam Young: I take it he had a wrist injury at the start of the year, which may be part of the reason for his struggles so far.

I've said this before, but it bear repeating: Bob Morton is a good friend of mine, and he said although Sam Young was much more talented than him, he basically told Sam Young what to do on every single play last year, more or less. So although Sam had a great rookie season, he's probably still just a sophomore in terms of the playbook and understanding the offense, and he no longer has an experienced guy next to him.

This is also why i think a lot of young guys do well in other programs, because the experience around them makes them better. When all the guys are young, it makes them all less strong, so the talent of the young guys doesn't get to shine as much as their weaknesses in experience.

As for another reason, you have to think that the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. The last reason should always be "that the number of reasons is SOOOO big." Think of the effect on the psyche of the Offense when it seems like the number of problems is insurmountable. It's gotta be hard when everything goes wrong, and then more things keep going wrong.
 
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buckeyebacker

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I' sorry but I can't give you much credence when the argument is that far from true....
This is definitely NOT the same offense from 2005 - 2006, its not even close and failing to acknowledge that kind of makes the rest of the argument weaker for it.

QB - big drop-off in experience, maybe in talent too, though the jury is out on that still - I mean Heisman finalist to child prodigy? Not even close and truth be told it would not have been even if Sharpley had some minor game experience from when he was backing up Quinn either...too severe a drop-off to ignore and even think the offense would be similar yet alone the same...

WR - HUGE drop-off in experience and production....Tate is fast and raw, Kamara is like Mo Stovall as a freshman - inconsistent and prone to dropping balls too much still, there is no one remotely close to the production of Shark over the last two years and Grimes has had injuries but even before that was showing himself to be a very capable slot WR and not much more...

RB - again a big drop off in experience from a 3-year starter to a HB-by-committee approach this year...the new guys also do not lock as well as Darius did and can't seem to pick up a blitz nearly as well...Aldridge and Allen can be something great in time (maybe) but they are not equal to Darius Walker in any way yet and have not been since the GT game...

OL is detailed through out this thread, but even though they may have more collective stars than the O-line of 2005, they come in with way less experience - the '05 line was THE most experienced EVER at ND - a HUGE, HUGE benefit to the Weis system in year one - those guys did not have to be taught everything over...this new line has prominently displayed that they DO need to be taught everything over...

I agree that a talent gap is not a primary reason for this years free-fall (my theory is more on a lack of experience and combination of other factors but not talent) but I disagree with the assessment beyond that...

Clearly, I've never been an Irish fan but I do follow CFB...like I said, it IS the same offense, and sure there is a talent drop off from the previous classes ahead of these guys, BUT if you execute the offensive game plan week in and week out then there shouldn't be questions about the offense. Charlie Weis, who is a proclaimed offensive genius, has been known to bring up good QB's and turn them into great ones,(see Brady, and Quinn) Sharpley is clearly the better QB of the two competing, they need to stick with him and develop him, they've got over two seasons now to work with him and make him the next great Irish QB, no more musical QB's, if he stuggles so be it, if he lights the world on fire, even better....but stick with one and leave it at that!

When I talk about executing....here are some stats for you all, and this is what I mean

Red Zone scores 18-28 64% (not good)
Red Zone touchdowns 12-28 43% (not good)
3rd down conversions 33-128 26% (not good)
and the big stat 7 offensive touchdowns 17 offensive turnovers (not good)

I'm not bagging on the Irish, as many of you know of me on here, I'm not like that....but clearly the execution of the offense is not there....and it IS the same offense as the years prior they just arent executing like they were, no I do not expect them to perform like Quinn and the gang, but those stats above are just putrid!
 

kjones

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If all of the players are different and the scheme is different, but it's still the SAME offense, what would it take to constitute a different offense?

Buckeye, I'd just like to clarify your terminology, because I think Moostache and myself, and probably many others take a different stance than you on what makes the offense "the same" and what makes it "different."

Pretty much the only hold-overs are Sullivan, Young, and Weis and the last one was known for changing the offensive scheme on a game-by-game basis based on matchups and personnel, so I don't think you can make a strong case for him being a "constant" factor when the personnel is completely different this year. Basically, the only thing the same about this offense as far as I can see is the uniforms, but the USC game changed that as well, so I dunno.

Your opinion is of course your own, but if you wouldn't mind explaining yit, I think we could avoid an argument over the semantics of what makes this offense "the same" as the one of the 2 years past.
 

NDsuperfan09

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Clearly, I've never been an Irish fan but I do follow CFB...like I said, it IS the same offense, and sure there is a talent drop off from the previous classes ahead of these guys, BUT if you execute the offensive game plan week in and week out then there shouldn't be questions about the offense. Charlie Weis, who is a proclaimed offensive genius, has been known to bring up good QB's and turn them into great ones,(see Brady, and Quinn) Sharpley is clearly the better QB of the two competing, they need to stick with him and develop him, they've got over two seasons now to work with him and make him the next great Irish QB, no more musical QB's, if he stuggles so be it, if he lights the world on fire, even better....but stick with one and leave it at that!

When I talk about executing....here are some stats for you all, and this is what I mean

Red Zone scores 18-28 64% (not good)
Red Zone touchdowns 12-28 43% (not good)
3rd down conversions 33-128 26% (not good)
and the big stat 7 offensive touchdowns 17 offensive turnovers (not good)

I'm not bagging on the Irish, as many of you know of me on here, I'm not like that....but clearly the execution of the offense is not there....and it IS the same offense as the years prior they just arent executing like they were, no I do not expect them to perform like Quinn and the gang, but those stats above are just putrid!


Sharpley isn't clearly the best QB, have you watched the games at all? Does he give us a better chance to win games right now? Yes he has a more livelier arm (I seriously doubt Clausen was ever 100%), and is more mobile but his accuracy pales in comparison to Clausen's. Neither QB is much better than the other, and our best one for next year may still be in High School right now.
 

johnnd05

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Sharpley isn't clearly the best QB, have you watched the games at all? Does he give us a better chance to win games right now? Yes he has a more livelier arm (I seriously doubt Clausen was ever 100%), and is more mobile but his accuracy pales in comparison to Clausen's. Neither QB is much better than the other, and our best one for next year may still be in High School right now.

All of this was pretty much right on the mark until this last sentence. Sorry but that is just :krazy:
 

NDsuperfan09

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All of this was pretty much right on the mark until this last sentence. Sorry but that is just :krazy:

Heres what I meant, Clausen obviously isn't healthy and Sharps is a very good backup but not a good starter. Crist is going to push for playing time next year unless Clausen nurses his arm back to full health. I'm hopeful Clausen will, but you honestly never know. Clausen is the best QB but he still needs to learn the college game. I hope Crist gets a chance to sit unlike Clausen so he can learn and be prepared to start when time allots it. Clausen is going to be the QB everyone expects him too in time if 2 things happen; A) His arm becomes fully healthy again, and his arm strength returns, and B) the O-Line decides to blok for him. I think at this point every position will be open for competition next fall, I'm against it for some positions (IE: the QB, because with a year full of lifting, more experience for himself and the players around him I think Clausen will start to seperate himself fom Sharpley.) but I think at this point it's almost unavoidable. BTW Sharpley is starting against Navy. I hope he tears up the Midshipmen.
 
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