Thoughts on the BC game.....

[johnnd05]

???

!!!

What's your point? Do you really think that loss can be BLAMED on the PLAY-CALLING?!

 

[Newc]

John, I think you are dead right with your evaluation of the play. The Irish keep shooting themselves in the foot, which in turn kills what could be good drives or allows our opponents to sustain their drives. Like you said, there are flashes of brilliance which really show that these kids are beginning to pick up the offensive and defensive schemes and show that, in most cases, we are beginning to pull the right kids into the program and putting them in the right positions.

However, the only reason that I am not freaking out is because you can tell with these kids that they are pushing. Each and every game I see multiple plays in which over-exuberance leads to a stupid penalty. Whether its a late hit, jumping offsides, over running a play or biting on a fake, the youth and inexpierence has constantly shot ND in the foot. And while I continue to get frustrated and come close to balding myself, I can't help but understand that these kids are maybe trying too hard. Trying to make a play, trying to get that next win. Like you said, its not a matter of playcalling and I don't even think its a matter of personel, atleast with the Weis recruits, but rather a problem with big eyes and nerves.

And yes, this is several weeks into the season and maybe these guys should have worked all the nerves and such out, but this is ND, and we all know that all these kids are hearing is how they should be winning and how much of a disappointment this season has been... as I'm sure they have ESPN in their rooms.

But ultimately John you are right. The stupid mistakes continue to kill this team, but I'll keep hope as we are atleast beating ourselves with our stupidity rather than simply getting outplayed with talent that far exceeds ours.

 

[johnnd05]

Nice post, Newc. Thanks.

Reps coming your way, even if you are a Sox fan ...

 

[Flash Gordon]

One question that I have not seen addressed in this anaysis has to do with the kick off after the celebration penalty. Why would we not kick the ball straight out of bounds and give them the ball on their 35 as opposed to risking a short kick off or a big return??

If I remember correctly, we gave them the ball on our side of the 50 and they marched down and scored a touchdown. If they would have had to drive from their 35, we may have stopped them, giving us a chance to go ahead with another score.

 

[goldandblue]

Good point flash. How does the rule work? if it goes out of bounds after the thirty five then it gets placed on the thirty five? I'm assuming if it goes out at the 45 then they will get it at the 45? Not real sure how that would work.

 

[Irish Legend]

!!!

What's your point? Do you really think that loss can be BLAMED on the PLAY-CALLING?!

Negative rep for being an asshole.

 

[johnnd05]

Negative rep for being an asshole.

Right back atcha. What a delight.

 

[kmoose]

Thank you. These kids run their ass off. Allen never stops churning his wheels. Look, there are reasons for everything. There are reasons the gameplan is limited somewhat. There are reasons the RBs aren't gaining a ton. It's easy to put blame on one person be that coach or player. But this is a team game. And this team is young. A good football team makes everything work and what works leads to the next thing that works: good blocking leads to good running, leads to good passing, leads back to good running. When one falters, the rest will falter along with it. Patience is the thing right now.

Look, I'm not trying to say that we have bad tailbacks, or that the kids don't run hard. I'm saying that they are not as talented as the tailbacks I grew used to seeing play, under Holtz. Look at the misdirection toss to Hughes, on 3rd and 1, in the BC game. We only needed one yard. A great tailback hits the hole hard(there WAS a hole there, even though BC had penetration), makes the first guy miss, and just falls down if that's what it takes to get the first down and keep the drive alive. Guys like Bettis, Becton, and Culver probably would have just put their shoulder down and run over the linebacker, on their way to a first down. Guys like Denson, Brooks, and Jones would have just given that little shimmy and moved around the guy, on their way to a first down. And those guys didn't have to stop moving forward to put that shimmy on a guy. They also could just put on a quick burst, and leave the guy grabbing for air. That's what the current tailbacks are missing. The bigger guys, like Aldridge and Hughes, don't have that quick burst. And Allen just doesn't have the size to run over a linebacker. They all run hard but without those other tools (and without good blocking), they just don't seem to have "it". I was really disappointed with Aldridge's blitz pickups (or lack of pickups). Did anyone see the play in the first quarter (first or second drive for ND), where they kind of half heartedly faked to Aldridge, and he stood there unsure of what to do, as a linebacker ran right past him and sacked Clausen? I know these kids are not professionals, and brain-lock is a part of college football sometimes, but it still drives me nuts when they miss rather basic things.

 

[johnnd05]

Kmoose, remember that they're just kids. Hughes and Allen especially are true freshmen. I agree that they underperformed, but I think we gotta give them time. I thought Hughes was doing okay before his injury, though you're right about blitz pick-up.

 

[kmoose]

Kmoose, remember that they're just kids. Hughes and Allen especially are true freshmen. I agree that they underperformed, but I think we gotta give them time. I thought Hughes was doing okay before his injury, though you're right about blitz pick-up.

That's nice and all, but this is ND, not some PAC-10 school. I remember watching Denson, Brooks, Bettis, et. al, as underclassmen...........they were men amongst boys. Arellious Benn is just a freshman, but he is tearing up the Big Ten. I'm not throwing them under the bus yet. I'm just frustrated that we don't seem to have ONE great tailback, let alone the many that I am used to seeing.

 

[AZic11]

Good point flash. How does the rule work? if it goes out of bounds after the thirty five then it gets placed on the thirty five? I'm assuming if it goes out at the 45 then they will get it at the 45? Not real sure how that would work.

I think that the rule is something like, the receiving team gets the ball 30 yards from where the kick originates. In the NFL, the ball is spotted at the 40, in college before this year, it was the 35. If that's true, BC would have gotten the ball at the ND 45 yardline, which wouldn't have done us much good.

That penalty was bigger than I originally thought it would be.

 

[jonesman]

Some of what you are talking about is a matter of coaching that takes that player to the next level. We may need some changes in many position coaches at the end of 2007. Further, remember that these kids are young and getting killed by the D. On the few times Aldridge and Hughes have seen daylight, they have performed well. Allen did not play a single down of football last season, so he made the leep from Junior year of high school to MAJOR college football. He is gonna have some growing pains. I believe in this group and think they WILL become great. The one person I really wish we saw more of is Luke Schmidt. CW is not maximizing this kids ability. He has size and much more running ability than Asaph. The thing you must remember about the players you mention from some years ago is that ND was producing NFL lineman in every single class. At one point we had more OL in the NFL than any school other than USC. Can you tell me who on this line will go to the NFL. Sully??? maybe Young??? Starting to doubt that. Turk or Duncan???? NO Olsen??? Jury is out. Further, when you have no downfield pass game, you are trying to run against 8 man fronts. Give the RB's time. I believe in these guys.

 

[jonesman]

Once we add this years class, we will have a run back bevy we have not seen since the early 90's so keep the faith

 

[kjones]

That's nice and all, but this is ND, not some PAC-10 school. I remember watching Denson, Brooks, Bettis, et. al, as underclassmen...........they were men amongst boys. Arellious Benn is just a freshman, but he is tearing up the Big Ten. I'm not throwing them under the bus yet. I'm just frustrated that we don't seem to have ONE great tailback, let alone the many that I am used to seeing.

Still, I think these sorts of players are exceptions to the rule, even exceptions that PROVE the rule. That those players seem so extraordinary is that they are, in fact, extraordinary. Not all great players follow this model, many simply are physically mature enough at that age to be that way. I think we do probably have at least one, if not more "great" tailbacks in the fold, but we might not see them be "great" for another year or two. Doesn't help you out now, but it might later on.

For a more contemporary example, think of USC's quarterbacks and how whenever a great one graduates, the next guys just steps right in and plays great as well. That next guy has been there for 2/3 years and done NOTHING productive on the field, but that doesn't mean he's not great. Matt Leinhart would have been called a disappointment too if he had started his freshman year, of that I have very little doubt.

 

[Timugen]

Look, I'm not trying to say that we have bad tailbacks, or that the kids don't run hard. I'm saying that they are not as talented as the tailbacks I grew used to seeing play, under Holtz. Look at the misdirection toss to Hughes, on 3rd and 1, in the BC game. We only needed one yard. A great tailback hits the hole hard(there WAS a hole there, even though BC had penetration), makes the first guy miss, and just falls down if that's what it takes to get the first down and keep the drive alive. Guys like Bettis, Becton, and Culver probably would have just put their shoulder down and run over the linebacker, on their way to a first down. Guys like Denson, Brooks, and Jones would have just given that little shimmy and moved around the guy, on their way to a first down. And those guys didn't have to stop moving forward to put that shimmy on a guy. They also could just put on a quick burst, and leave the guy grabbing for air. That's what the current tailbacks are missing. The bigger guys, like Aldridge and Hughes, don't have that quick burst. And Allen just doesn't have the size to run over a linebacker. They all run hard but without those other tools (and without good blocking), they just don't seem to have "it". I was really disappointed with Aldridge's blitz pickups (or lack of pickups). Did anyone see the play in the first quarter (first or second drive for ND), where they kind of half heartedly faked to Aldridge, and he stood there unsure of what to do, as a linebacker ran right past him and sacked Clausen? I know these kids are not professionals, and brain-lock is a part of college football sometimes, but it still drives me nuts when they miss rather basic things.

Something we need to keep in mind regarding our young talent at RB:

1. Inexperienced RBs need some time to learn how to read their blocks/adjust to the faster game speed at the line of scrimmage.

2. Our OL isn't helping them out at all.

(2) is retarding the progression of (1).

 

[mbooch]

Right back atcha. What a delight.

Nobody's an a$$hole here, unless some Michigan fan snuck in.

I understand the desire to think of CW as a "great" coach. After all, he flashed those Super Bowl rings around long enough to half make me believe HE won the MVP award in at least one of thise games.

BUT

Playcalling matters. As things stand, if I'm the USC D coordinator, I KNOW that ND wil not challenge me on the ground, won't run at me, won't trap or draw me, and won't pass long until they're three tochdowns behind. MY job is pretty darned easy, eh? Drill my scondary on defending the dink and dunks, turn my front 4 loose to attack the QB, rack up about 4 three and outs, 5 sacks, and wait for the ND defense to wear out.

 

[mbooch]

Some of what you are talking about is a matter of coaching that takes that player to the next level. We may need some changes in many position coaches at the end of 2007. Further, remember that these kids are young and getting killed by the D. On the few times Aldridge and Hughes have seen daylight, they have performed well. Allen did not play a single down of football last season, so he made the leep from Junior year of high school to MAJOR college football. He is gonna have some growing pains. I believe in this group and think they WILL become great. The one person I really wish we saw more of is Luke Schmidt. CW is not maximizing this kids ability. He has size and much more running ability than Asaph. The thing you must remember about the players you mention from some years ago is that ND was producing NFL lineman in every single class. At one point we had more OL in the NFL than any school other than USC. Can you tell me who on this line will go to the NFL. Sully??? maybe Young??? Starting to doubt that. Turk or Duncan???? NO Olsen??? Jury is out. Further, when you have no downfield pass game, you are trying to run against 8 man fronts. Give the RB's time. I believe in these guys.

Jonesie... we may need an atitude adjustment ABOVE that level. From what I'm hearing, the O line did very little all out hitting pre-season, and, as we've seen, came into the year badly in need of toughness and aggresiveness as a group. Also, according to Tom Pagna, the blocking schemes are too basic for the college game, allowing the defensive lineman to get hyper-aggressive. Sadly, these are NOT things you can fix on the fly during the season, and were probably NOT determined by the position coaches without approval from Himself.

Also, it is very much time to give the QB contrversy a rest, AND to stop looking to THAT position for "the answer". Let's recall that the last two ND natonal championships (I count '93 as a NC. WE WUZ ROBBED) were won with QB's NOBODY talked about as NFL material (Tony Rice and Kevin McDougal). On the other hand, the Clausen mania is starting to sound like the Ron Pawlus hype, and we all know how far THAT got anybody.

I agre with your main point, though. The biggest failure this year has been in getting youngish players ready to play the college game. SOME of the young-uns are freshmen, to be sure. SEVERAL aren't, though. ONE freshman has started o the O line this year, ad now he's leaving. SEVERAL of the better wideout play has been done by freshmen.

Charlie Weis is showing that he has something to learn about developing youngsters. I hope, and expect, he will learn from this year.

 

[johnnd05]

ONE freshman has started o the O line this year, ad now he's leaving.

Carufel wasn't a frosh; he was a sophomore. The only freshman who's played on the o-line is Romine, who's out with an elbow injury.

 

[kmoose]

Nobody's an a$$hole here, unless some Michigan fan snuck in.

I understand the desire to think of CW as a "great" coach. After all, he flashed those Super Bowl rings around long enough to half make me believe HE won the MVP award in at least one of thise games.

BUT

Playcalling matters. As things stand, if I'm the USC D coordinator, I KNOW that ND wil not challenge me on the ground, won't run at me, won't trap or draw me, and won't pass long until they're three tochdowns behind. MY job is pretty darned easy, eh? Drill my scondary on defending the dink and dunks, turn my front 4 loose to attack the QB, rack up about 4 three and outs, 5 sacks, and wait for the ND defense to wear out.

1. I don't care if Weis is a "great" coach or not. The college game is rarely won on schemes. It's usually decided by the guys on the field. I do, however, find it hilarious that some people (on here and elsewhere) are talking about a guy with 4 Super Bowl rings as if he is an idiot.

Perhaps part of the problem is the level of talent in the NFL. In the NFL, the players are all VERY talented. That makes defenses somewhat predictable. You know that all of the starting DBs in the NFL have the same basic skill set. You can count on them reacting in a specific way to different things you do, offensively. Maybe that is what Weis hasn't accounted for in the college game. The fact that all of the players you face don't have the same basic skills. So, while maybe doing "x" will ALWAYS draw the safety out of the middle of the field in the NFL, the average college safety may not have that level of "education" yet, and may react unpredictably. I have faith that Weis will figure it out. Will it happen today? Not bloody likely, it appears. But I believe it will happen. Go to und.com and listen to his pressers. He knows what he is talking about. It may not always translate to the field, but he DOES know what he is doing.

2. I hope 'SC does expect us to just sling the rock against them. But I doubt they will. You see, 'SC's Defensive Coordinator will have actually studied the numbers, unlike you apparently. In the first half of the BC game, ND passed 19 times, and ran the ball 11 times. Not great balance, but not completely abandoning the run, either.

Those of you who are howling about the "predictability" of Weis this year, are reacting emotionally. The truth is, Weis has tried to establish the run in the first half this year. The problem has been, in most games, you are down two or three or four scores at the half, and you have to start throwing almost exclusively. If you want to lay blame for the "predictability" of the offense, throw some at the O-line, which hasn't been able to open more than one or two holes all year.

 

[johnnd05]

2. I hope 'SC does expect us to just sling the rock against them. But I doubt they will. You see, 'SC's Defensive Coordinator will have actually studied the numbers, unlike you apparently. In the first half of the BC game, ND passed 19 times, and ran the ball 11 times. Not great balance, but not completely abandoning the run, either.

Those of you who are howling about the "predictability" of Weis this year, are reacting emotionally. The truth is, Weis has tried to establish the run in the first half this year. The problem has been, in most games, you are down two or three or four scores at the half, and you have to start throwing almost exclusively. If you want to lay blame for the "predictability" of the offense, throw some at the O-line, which hasn't been able to open more than one or two holes all year.

Nice point. Throw in the fact that BC's defense was ranked third in the nation in run defense and 110th in pass defense coming in, and you'd have a knockdown argument. Heck, they held Tashard Choice and Georgia Tech to 63 rushing yards. You want to pound it against that team?

 

[johnnd05]

BTW, it doesn't say anything much different from what I've been saying on the board so I didn't bother re-posting it, but I've got a blog post up that goes into a bit more detail on the playcalling, here.