Thoughts on the BC game.....
- Thread starter kmoose
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LOL. See what I mean? "Handing it out so soon"? You started the post immediately after the game. YOU handed it out soon. Then you ask why people would hand it out so soon. And you use the losing coach as your mentor.
Agree (finally) with everything else you posted.
WHAT HAPPENED TO CRUM? WHY DIDN'T HE PLAY?
Epitome
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I think both QB's played border line terrible, Parris dropped at least 3 balls that he should have caught and the play calling in the first half was sub par again. We need to pass down field to set up the run. On the other hand the D looked great except for two guys.
kmoose
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The D looked good. While they looked much better than anytime in the last 3 years, they still gave up over 450 yards, and 27 points. That's not great.
C
ChicagoIrishfan
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How about BC and their fans having no class at all. Was anyone their for the end of the game when the BC players walked right through our band at the end of the game. Act like you have won before.
BC players and fans = zero class
BC players and fans = zero class
Too many critical penalties...losing the touchdown with approx. 2 minutes left in the game hurt. If it counted, then the possibility of getting an on side kick existed and if we recovered it, then the possibility of a win existed. More discipline is needed...badly.
kjones
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Sigh. I don't mean to be rude, but you never seem to understand what anyone else is saying, or maybe it's just me. What blame did I hand out? Did I single anyone out and place blame on them? I guess you could have read that in somewhere, but I think you just like to be a jerk. How come? Is it more fun? I've thought about being a jerk for no reason before, but I never could come up with a convincing case for it. What tipped it over for you?
It's just you. What tipped it over for me?
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Jonesie,
Nobody is questioning the spirit, and everybody admires the effort. But the truth is that there are no moral victories. This is a 1-6 team that isn't playing college-level offense.
I personally doubt that the QB is the problem, or the "invisible corner" /solution.
What we are questioning (truth be known, there's very little question about it) is the quality of play-calling and coaching we are seeing. 7 games into a season, a snap in the shotgun formation should NOT be an adventure. Guys shouldn't be going home to think things over on a regular basis (as Carufel did this week). NO offense should be 75% pass-dependant. A 41 yard field goal attempt shouldn't be cause for mass breath-holding. There shouldn't BE multiple fourth down efforts. There are pretty basic things that shouldn't be happening out there, but ARE happening, week in and week out.
It's not like anybody making postings here HATES Notre Dame. Quite the opposite. However, what is showing nationwide on NBC doesn't look like what a lot of us remember, and expect, of Notre Dame football.
Best of luck to Zahm. I had some good budies there, in the Stone Ages.
Nobody is questioning the spirit, and everybody admires the effort. But the truth is that there are no moral victories. This is a 1-6 team that isn't playing college-level offense.
I personally doubt that the QB is the problem, or the "invisible corner" /solution.
What we are questioning (truth be known, there's very little question about it) is the quality of play-calling and coaching we are seeing. 7 games into a season, a snap in the shotgun formation should NOT be an adventure. Guys shouldn't be going home to think things over on a regular basis (as Carufel did this week). NO offense should be 75% pass-dependant. A 41 yard field goal attempt shouldn't be cause for mass breath-holding. There shouldn't BE multiple fourth down efforts. There are pretty basic things that shouldn't be happening out there, but ARE happening, week in and week out.
It's not like anybody making postings here HATES Notre Dame. Quite the opposite. However, what is showing nationwide on NBC doesn't look like what a lot of us remember, and expect, of Notre Dame football.
Best of luck to Zahm. I had some good budies there, in the Stone Ages.
1. This isn't Litle League. There's no team moms cutting up oranges for "snack time", and whining about how the team that beat us behaved doesn't mean squat.
2. Trying hard isn't cause for celebration. It is the LEAST a player can do.
3. It IS true that this is a YOUNG team, but that only accounts for so much. After 7 games, quite a number of these fellas are experienced enough to be playing better offense together than they are.
4. I expect that Charlie Weis is a smarter coach than Ty Willingham, whose LAZINESS in recruiting is the untold story behind this year's problems. However, he is doing a BAD job play-calling and game planning right now, and putting unnacceptable pressure on a green offensive line with a one-dimensional offensive scheme.
2. Trying hard isn't cause for celebration. It is the LEAST a player can do.
3. It IS true that this is a YOUNG team, but that only accounts for so much. After 7 games, quite a number of these fellas are experienced enough to be playing better offense together than they are.
4. I expect that Charlie Weis is a smarter coach than Ty Willingham, whose LAZINESS in recruiting is the untold story behind this year's problems. However, he is doing a BAD job play-calling and game planning right now, and putting unnacceptable pressure on a green offensive line with a one-dimensional offensive scheme.
Please tell that to all our future opponents and hope they believe you, because our previous opponents this year have been able to it against us for big chunks.
kjones
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The thing is, I didn't say anything about any of that. I just said
And for that, Wham starts getting belligerent again, and completely irrationally as well, or perhaps he misunderstood my point. Then he starts calling me stupid and that I don't in actuality have a very lovely girlfriend. (I do) Not that I really care about his trash-talking personally, but it doesn't really foster good debates or discussions.
The thing is, Wham is like the anti-discussion. Anytime I contribute to any thread that he is in, I can count on him being a dick about either something I said, or to be a dick about stuff he just makes up like he has in this thread already. I didn't even argue with anything he said in this thread and he's still being a dick. I've tried being reasonable with him, but no avail. I think many of your points are good kmoose, and so are Wham's actually, but I've never gotten a chance to you know, actually talk with him because he immediately is insulting. At first I thought if I talked calmly about things, he'd settle down, but it looks like the ignore function might be the only way out.
Hope to see you around more though kmoose, I like your points and how you can actually talk about them without being rude.
Go ahead Wham, find something new to insult. Your lines are getting old. Or you know, maybe talk about football instead. But I seriously doubt you'll do that.
LOVEMYIRISH
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GoshenGipper
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Yeah, I saw that crap too. Most of their fans acted like dicks all day.
What made me laugh was how much they like to talk about how bad ND is, or how much they don't care about ND, but it that's the case then why was it such a huge deal to win?
notredomer23
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IMO, there is no qb controversy, Sharpley is the starting QB.
NDFan4Life
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johnnd05
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(Via the Roundup.)
Stop beating yourself.
Ugh. Now that I’m done throwing up, here’s an initial take on the game.
The reason this loss hurts so effing much is that the Irish have no-one but themselves to blame for it. BC racked up 131 yards on 15 penalties, the defense played great and harassed Matt Ryan into a subpar 32-of-49, 291-yard passing performance and returned an interception for a touchdown, and Evan Sharpley had a strong performance in relief of the disappointing Jimmy Clausen. But throughout the game, the Irish were hamstrung by penalties, turnovers, dropped or mis-thrown passes, and many other stupid mistakes. These are the sorts of things that I termed “Inexcusables” after the Michigan State loss, and I argued after the Purdue game that they were the chief reason why the Irish were unable to pull out a win in West Lafayette. The same goes for today’s game, I think, and Charlie Weis’s post-game remarks suggest that he felt the same way:
The first half:
The second half:
Perhaps I should end by quoting what I said after the Purdue game:
There is no question that this team has got the talent to beat USC next Saturday. But they won’t be able to do that if they can’t stop beating themselves.
Stop beating yourself.
Ugh. Now that I’m done throwing up, here’s an initial take on the game.
The reason this loss hurts so effing much is that the Irish have no-one but themselves to blame for it. BC racked up 131 yards on 15 penalties, the defense played great and harassed Matt Ryan into a subpar 32-of-49, 291-yard passing performance and returned an interception for a touchdown, and Evan Sharpley had a strong performance in relief of the disappointing Jimmy Clausen. But throughout the game, the Irish were hamstrung by penalties, turnovers, dropped or mis-thrown passes, and many other stupid mistakes. These are the sorts of things that I termed “Inexcusables” after the Michigan State loss, and I argued after the Purdue game that they were the chief reason why the Irish were unable to pull out a win in West Lafayette. The same goes for today’s game, I think, and Charlie Weis’s post-game remarks suggest that he felt the same way:
“I think we had a chance in this game, but the bottom line is they won 27-14,” he said. “If I sit there and say, ‘God if we were just better on that snap, or if we would have hit this one pass or if we didn’t get a penalty. …’ But the thing is, we did.”
And did they ever. While there are many statistical measures of this sort of sloppiness - seven penalties, two turnovers, an average starting position of the ND 42.5-yard line on BC’s four scoring drives, under 21 minutes of possession time, and so on and so forth - it seems to me that a bit of “color commentary” on some of the major blunders is in order. So sit back and relax; this is going to take a while.
The first half:
- Notre Dame’s first offensive series was highlighted by a pair of pass-blocking blunders. After two rushes and a nice reception by James Aldridge picked up a first down, Sam Young was called for holding on 2nd-and-10. The player Young was blocking, defensive end Allan Smith got to Jimmy Clausen anyway on the play, and gave him a nice hit as he thew away the ball. Two plays later, on 3rd-and-17, Aldridge whiffed badly on blitz pickup but Clausen got rid of the ball in time to avoid a sack.
- The second offensive series for the Irish was similarly blunder-filled. After another solid run by Aldridge and a completion to George West led to ND’s second first down of the day, Clausen hit John Carlson for six yards but then made two awful throws in the direction of Robby Parris, and the Irish were forced to punt. Geoff Price’s kick was good for only 32 yards, and the Irish failed to pin the Eagles back.
- The Irish didn’t manage to pick up a first down on either of their next two offensive series, both of which ended in failed conversion attempts on third-and-short. After a six-yard completion to Carlson, Aldridge picked up one yard on 2nd-and-4 but had to leave the game with an injury. Armando Allen replaced him but was given no hole to run through on 3rd-and-3; he picked up only two yards and the Irish had to punt again. The next series started off well once again with a six-yard completion to Duval Kamara and a three-yard run by Robert Hughes, which got ND to the 46-yard line. But on a toss play to the right side, Hughes was stopped for a loss of a yard on 3rd-and-1, and the Irish lined up to punt once again.
- Notre Dame’s next drive, which came right after Trevor Laws’s block of a BC field goal attempt to keep the score at 6-0, perhaps summarized the team’s woes. The drive opened with an incomplete pass, but Clausen followed that up with an 8-yard completion to Carlson, and then Asaph Schwapp had a nice run for a first down. Clausen then threw incomplete to Carlson, a nicely-thrown ball on what I think was his first deep pass of the night, followed by a run by Hughes that was stuffed for a gain of one yard and then a beautiful 26-yard completion to Parris to convert another third down and bring the Irish to the BC 41-yard line. But after Hughes was stopped for no gain on first down, Eric Olsen (together with what seemed to me to be the rest of the offensive line) false-started on 2nd-and-10, and Clausen came under huge pressure on both of the next two plays, and the Irish were forced to punt from the BC 36. But here’s the kicker (as it were): J.J. Jansen’s snap was low, and Price let his knee touch the ground as he bent down to pick it up: twelve yards were officially lost on the play, but BC was able to start from the Irish 42 instead of their own 20-yard line. Less than five minutes later, after a drive that included a dreadful pass interference penalty on Ambrose Wooden on a mis-thrown ball that could not have been caught, the Eagles were in the end zone, with a 13-0 lead.
- The ensuing drive started with 1:19 on the clock, and the Irish scrambling to get some points on the board. John Sullivan snapped the ball over Clausen’s head on first down, but the freshman managed to get rid of the ball without being sacked. A poorly-thrown pass to Kamara on second down was redeemed when DeJuan Tribble was called for a personal foul, and the Irish had 1st-and-10 at their own 43-yard line. On the next play, though, Sam Young was called for holding once again, and then Clausen threw an incompletion, scrambled for four yards, and then was intercepted by Tribble on a pass thrown downfield to Kamara that looked to be at least five yards short. The Irish went into the locker room lucky to be down only by two scores, and with the sputtering offense constantly throwing away the momentum the defense was able to generate.
The second half:
- The second half started off well for the Irish, as BC’s opening drive was stuffed, and Johnny Ayers’s punt was good for only 36 yards, allowing ND to start from their own 36, their second-best field position of the day. But on the very first offensive play, Clausen threw a dangerous pass and it bounced off of John Carlson’s hands and into those of BC’s Tryone Pruitt. The interception was returned 30 yards to the ND eleven-yard line, and three plays later the Eagles were in the end zone and the lead stood at 20-0.
- It was at this point that Evan Sharpley came in to replace Clausen, and while he started off shakily - nearly being picked off on his first throw after Kamara tipped it up into the air, and badly overthrowing Allen on his second - he settled down and went four of five for 64 yards the rest of the way, leading the Irish to a touchdown. On the ensuing kickoff, the Eagles were stopped at the 21-yard line, and the game clearly seemed to be swinging ND’s way. A minute and a half later, Brian Smith picked off a Matt Ryan pass over the middle and returned it 25 yards for a touchdown. Just like that, BC’s lead stood at 20-14, with almost 24 minutes remaining in regulation.
- After Smith’s touchdown, though, the Irish were penalized for excessive celebration in the end zone, and were forced to kick the ball off from their own 15-yard line. Nate Whitaker’s bloop kick got only as far as the BC 38, and it was returned 18 yards by Brad Newman as the Eagles lined up to start their second in three drives on the Irish side of the field. Five plays and less than two minutes later, they were on the board again. The lead was back to two scores and the Irish seemed to have lost much of their momentum.
- ND’s next drive went three-and-out, ending after Kamara dropped a pass on 3rd-and-3 following a seven-yard run by Armando Allen. After the defense forced BC into a three-and-out on the next series, Sharpley led the Irish to a first down around midfield but then threw three straight incompletions in the direction of Robby Parris: Pruitt nearly got his second interception of the game on the first of them, and the third down throw landed in the open field as Sharpley and Parris appeared to have gotten their signals crossed. (This drive also featured the “inadvertent whistle” that seemed to suck out whatever life was remaining in the stadium.)
- After another BC three-and-out, Tom Zbikowski had a nice punt return, and a holding penalty on the Eagles moved the Irish to the BC 39-yard line, their best starting field-position of the day. Sharpley was nearly intercepted once again on his first pass downfield, and then overthrew Carlson on second down but was bailed out when BC’s Roderick Rollins was flagged for a late hit. But on first down and ten from the BC 24, Mike Turkovich was called for a hold as Armando Allen broke of a nine-yard run. Sharpley did hit Kamara for 13 yards on 2nd-and-20, but then Paul Duncan was burned badly and Sharpley was sacked for a loss of three yards. Brandon Walker then missed a 41-yard field goal attempt wide to the right, and the Irish wasted a golden opportunity handed to them by BC’s sloppy play.
- BC’s next drive ate up 5:34 on the clock, but they were thwarted on a fourth-down conversion attempt and the Irish started up from their own 25-yard line. Sharpley moved the ball downfield effectively, completing a pair of screen passes to Armando Allen for gains of nine and five yards, and generating some positive yardage with his feet on a couple of plays despite being sacked by BC’s Ron Brace, who bursted untouched through the middle of the line. Then a 21-yard pass to Parris then had fifteen more yards tacked on because of another personal foul on the Eagles, and suddenly the Irish were at the BC 22. After a pair of incompletions, Sharpley made a spectacular play getting the ball to John Carlson as he was going down under heavy pressure, but after a lengthy review it was determined that Carlson had been stopped just short of the first down marker. No matter, though: Sharpley hit Parris for a 13-yard touchdown on fourth down, and the Irish were back within a score … or maybe not. Mike Turkovich was called for holding once again on the play, the Irish were forced to line up again and try for 4th-and-11 from the 23, and everyone knows how that story ends. The Eagles ran the clock down to under three minutes on their next drive, Sharpley went 0-for-4 (though one of those should have been caught by Parris) on the ensuing series, and the Irish had fallen to 1-6.
Perhaps I should end by quoting what I said after the Purdue game:
If the Irish are going to avoid going 0-8 to start the season, their so-far steady diet of these sorts of mental and physical mistakes is going to have to change. Some of them can be attributed to underclassman jitters, others to players trying to do too much to help a team dig itself out of a hole, and others perhaps to frustration. But they’ve got to stop, and it’s hard to believe that the coaching staff doesn’t know that.
0-8 is no longer a possibility, but a 1-7 start that would put the Irish out of contention for a bowl game looms ominously in the horizon. We’re past the midseason mark now, and so youth and inexperience no longer carry much weight as excuses.
There is no question that this team has got the talent to beat USC next Saturday. But they won’t be able to do that if they can’t stop beating themselves.
Irish Legend
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The play calling is the worst I've seen in years!
johnnd05
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How can you say that? Look at the play-by-play and explain to me how the loss is the product of bad playcalling as opposed to poor execution (and shitty luck on the injury front: remember that Aldridge was doing well before he got injured, and Grimes and Wenger both missed the game). Did Weis TELL Turkovich to tackle his guy on those two plays? Were those third-down runs DESIGNED to come up short of the line of scrimmage? Were those passing plays MEANT to involve drops or crappy throws?
Sorry, but IM(NH)O the only way someone could blame that loss on play calling is if s/he's either (a) a knee-jerk Weis-hater or (b) a football ignoramus.
LOVEMYIRISH
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Why? Do you think Weis is calling all those scrambles, missed tackles, and penalties?
Irish Legend
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STFU - First off I'm a bigger ND fan than most people on this site. I know that ND will win the NC within the next 4-5 years and (a) Weis is the right man for the job, (b) I'm not ignorant because in your eyes all of the coaches can do no wrong. The offense: When Clausen is in, he can't get a pass play longer than 10 or so yards and when Sharpley comes in he gets the play calls down the field every other play? Defense: Why do the CB's have to give up a 10 yard cushion to the receivers every play? Why is Wooden even on the field?
Anyway, I guess I'll go to GH where you don't get attacked for having an opinion that differs from ignorant "copy and paste" tools that care more about their post count than actually thinking before writing ignoramus comebacks because he thinks he is actually part of the ND football program!
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IrishAlum1997
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It's all been a rouse to lull U$C to sleep. Notre Dame caps off a glorious 54-7 drubbing of the Condoms with a fake punt on 4th and 2 late in the 4th quarter of a blowout victory.
After the victory, Charlie calls Compton Technical Institute looking for an add-on game, to capitalize on our ability to only dominate teams from the Los Angeles area this season.
GO IRISH!!!
After the victory, Charlie calls Compton Technical Institute looking for an add-on game, to capitalize on our ability to only dominate teams from the Los Angeles area this season.
GO IRISH!!!
The thing is, I didn't say anything about any of that. I just said
And for that, Wham starts getting belligerent again, and completely irrationally as well, or perhaps he misunderstood my point. Then he starts calling me stupid and that I don't in actuality have a very lovely girlfriend. (I do) Not that I really care about his trash-talking personally, but it doesn't really foster good debates or discussions.
kjones. I sent you a private message apology. When you first posted on this thread, I thought it was kmoose who had just made a slightly belligerent comment to me on another thread. I was actually responding to kmoose instead of you when I realized on my next post that it was you. I don't blame you for wondering "WTF". Maybe this explanation will clear things up a bit.
My bad.:embarrass
johnnd05
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Huh?? DUUUUUDE, relax. What you said was that the play-calling was the worst you'd seen in years. I said that I saw no evidence of that: in the first half, the offense was regularly in a position to move down the field, but drives constantly came to an end because of either (a) stupid penalties or (b) screw-ups like bad throws or failed conversions in short yardage. Clausen DID have some downfield (i.e., 10+ yard) passing plays called for him, and he did okay with them: as for the difference between the plays called for him and Sharpley, perhaps it had something to do with (1) the different game situations and (2) their different skill sets. If that's the worst play-calling you've seen in "years," you must not have been watching from 2002-2004.
I don't consider CB coverage or personnel decisions (i.e. Wooden being in the game) to be a matter of play-calling, but maybe that's just a semantic point.
(It's not true, btw, that the coaches "can do no wrong" in my eyes. I think the sloppiness that has plagued this team all season long, and their appalling inconsistency, is absolutely inexcusable, and that a huge portion of the blame for it falls on the staff. Whether it's coming out flat this season or last, doing dumb sh-t that blows games, or whatever, there is a lot that needs to be fixed here. I just think that Weis's play-calling, especially against BC, is the LEAST of the team's problems; and in any case it hardly warrants what you said of it.)
As to the rest of what you have to say: I usually hate to see people go, but good riddance. I don't know what "'copy and paste' tools" you're talking about; 90% of what I post, including long-ass things like my blow-by-blow of yesterday's game, come from my own desk. I don't give a sh-t about my post count, and I'm well aware that I'm not "part of the ND football program" - just an ND grad with a love for the Irish, following my team in between (or while, as the case may be) writing chapters of my dissertation. If you don't like what I have to say and choose to articulate that with name-calling, I for one will be happy to have you go elsewhere.
WaveDomer
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Thank you. These kids run their ass off. Allen never stops churning his wheels. Look, there are reasons for everything. There are reasons the gameplan is limited somewhat. There are reasons the RBs aren't gaining a ton. It's easy to put blame on one person be that coach or player. But this is a team game. And this team is young. A good football team makes everything work and what works leads to the next thing that works: good blocking leads to good running, leads to good passing, leads back to good running. When one falters, the rest will falter along with it. Patience is the thing right now.
I'm not saying not to discuss the gameplan or what can be better etc. I just get a little miffed when these kids are thrown under the bus a bit and we start personally insulting the coach. Everyone who was sane knew this was going to be a tough campaign. Let's not start cannibalizing.
Irish Legend
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???
G
goldenlid
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I don't want to throw anyone under a bus, I'm just pissed that ND can not run the ball. We were told three years ago that ND was going to have a nasty team and we don't have it. The line has gotten worst over the last two years and I don't understand why. The o-line is huge and the runningbacks ND has should be putting up huge #s but they can't get any and this go's back to last year. ND has got to be able to run first before anything starts to work and that is plan to see.