2 cents on CW

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Buckslife171

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Wow 1-11 or 0-12 people are predicting... Never in my mind i would ever think ND football could fall this much. I know it's a rebuilding year but every major college rebuilds and reloads every year. The last 2 years ND ended 9th and 17th in the AP polls. They have had top 5 recruiting classes tha last 2 years to fill in the gaps of the departing seniors from Ty's era. Think it's time for CW recruits to take hold..

All of the struggles that ND face today IMO falls on the back of CW. CW has total control of recruiting, coaching,motivating,hiring,firing and every other aspect of ND football.. IMO there is no excuse for ND to have a season of 1-11, 2-11 or even 3-11 especially with a 3rd year coach in place. I see alot of blogs about ND fans talk about being a rebuilding year going to be a down year and all. I think to myself this is ND FOOTBALL for goodness sakes. I can't think for a minute that ND fans have lowered there standards to except anything but excellence. Maybe i look at it diffently then ND fans do and thats why im OSU fan i guess.

I am not here to knock ND football but just to give my 2 cents.. I do hope your get this turned around will be better for college football..
 

irish4ever

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Wow 1-11 or 0-12 people are predicting... Never in my mind i would ever think ND football could fall this much. I know it's a rebuilding year but every major college rebuilds and reloads every year. The last 2 years ND ended 9th and 17th in the AP polls. They have had top 5 recruiting classes tha last 2 years to fill in the gaps of the departing seniors from Ty's era. Think it's time for CW recruits to take hold..

All of the struggles that ND face today IMO falls on the back of CW. CW has total control of recruiting, coaching,motivating,hiring,firing and every other aspect of ND football.. IMO there is no excuse for ND to have a season of 1-11, 2-11 or even 3-11 especially with a 3rd year coach in place. I see alot of blogs about ND fans talk about being a rebuilding year going to be a down year and all. I think to myself this is ND FOOTBALL for goodness sakes. I can't think for a minute that ND fans have lowered there standards to except anything but excellence. Maybe i look at it diffently then ND fans do and thats why im OSU fan i guess.

I am not here to knock ND football but just to give my 2 cents.. I do hope your get this turned around will be better for college football..

Not to beat a dead horse, but w/ the "inexperienced" players thru the 2 deep against the talented 1st eight opponents adds A LOT to ND's troubles this year. Sprinkle a Duke or Stanford in the 1st 5-6 games, I don't think they would be winless at this point.
 

johnnd05

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Thanks for the thoughtful post.

I agree that there is DEFINITELY no excuse if this team goes 1-11 or 0-12 - but is there anyone who actually thinks that is going to happen? After the progress shown the last two weeks, there seems to be no doubt that this team is going to win at least four games.

That said, and even with the immense difficulty of these first eight games, there's also no excuse for how badly this team has played at times. But as has been suggested elsewhere, one way to understand what's happened is that Weis is just a gambler: he doesn't care whether the team looks good or bad; he just wants to win. And so at the start of the season he schemed like crazy and asked these kids to do way more than they could. Was this a good decision? I don't think so, and I think that's why he changed what he was doing after the UM game. But does it show that he's a bad coach? No.
 

Sir John

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I have to disagree with Jay at BGS and yourself John. IMHO, I don't think a good coach wan'ts 'to keep it close' (Your talking accepting a loss.) Charlie does want to win. That's the nature of the game of football. Do anything to win except cheat. The fundimentals may be true but it has been said the line was looking at their wristbands lining up, as well as the QB which is why Weis took those away. Play football and they had flashes of real football in the Purdue game.

Remember they still are true Freshmen and green Sophs.
 

johnnd05

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I have to disagree with Jay at BGS and yourself John. IMHO, I don't think a good coach wan'ts 'to keep it close' (Your talking accepting a loss.) Charlie does want to win. That's the nature of the game of football. Do anything to win except cheat. The fundimentals may be true but it has been said the line was looking at their wristbands lining up, as well as the QB which is why Weis took those away. Play football and they had flashes of real football in the Purdue game.

Remember they still are true Freshmen and green Sophs.

Sorry if I was unclear Sir John, but that's actually what I was trying to say. I think that Weis has realized that he CAN'T win games by doing the same sort of crazy scheming that worked in the NFL and with upperclassmen the past two years. I don't think the change of style is just meant to keep it close.
 

Sir John

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OK sorry johnn I was drinking the kool Aid at start of season and am more realistic now.
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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We all drank kool-aid at the start of the season. I predicted 8 wins this year. Damn, I can't believe Mark May was right. Gives me the shits just thinking about it.
 

IrishinTN

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Damn, I can't believe Mark May was right. Gives me the shits just thinking about it.

Makes me wanna puke. But bear in mind, he only ever predicts doom and gloom for the irish, so he'll even be right occasionally. Even a blind jackass will find a tuffle once in a while.
 

maineman

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Help!

Help!

I am trying to process this. Can someone help me, please? I read the 0-fer article and who is to blame. Tyrone left the cupboard bare so he is to blame. But Charlie won with Tyrone's guys for 2 years pretty consistently and didn't struggle until his 3rd year after having 2 full classes of his own recruits. This is history repeating itself isn't it? Tyrone won for 2 years consistently using Bob Davies guys and struggled in his third using 2 years of his own recruits. Aren't these pretty equivalent situations? Tyrone got fired, but Charlie is untouchable? Kindly explain?
 

johnnd05

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I am trying to process this. Can someone help me, please? I read the 0-fer article and who is to blame. Tyrone left the cupboard bare so he is to blame. But Charlie won with Tyrone's guys for 2 years pretty consistently and didn't struggle until his 3rd year after having 2 full classes of his own recruits. This is history repeating itself isn't it? Tyrone won for 2 years consistently using Bob Davies guys and struggled in his third using 2 years of his own recruits. Aren't these pretty equivalent situations? Tyrone got fired, but Charlie is untouchable? Kindly explain?

What do you mean that Willingham "won for 2 years consistently"? I think he was 5-7 in his second year ...
 

Timugen

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I guess you're right. Tyrone was 5-7 in 2003 and 21-15 overall. Charlie is 19-11 right now.


Yep....and you might also want to check on what sort of prospects for future improvement (i.e. RECRUITS) Ty had coming in after his disappointing performances in his last two years.

There is a difference between playing like ass and wondering how you're even going to field a team in two years (Ty) versus playing like ass but actually having a lot to look forward to with the talent being brought in.

Is that a clear enough explanation to your original post, you troll?
 

Domendomer

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I am trying to process this. Can someone help me, please? I read the 0-fer article and who is to blame. Tyrone left the cupboard bare so he is to blame. But Charlie won with Tyrone's guys for 2 years pretty consistently and didn't struggle until his 3rd year after having 2 full classes of his own recruits. This is history repeating itself isn't it? Tyrone won for 2 years consistently using Bob Davies guys and struggled in his third using 2 years of his own recruits. Aren't these pretty equivalent situations? Tyrone got fired, but Charlie is untouchable? Kindly explain?

Let's go back a bit. Davie inherited 4 year's worth of Holtz/Davie athletes. Davie was average against an incredibly tough schedule. Davie left the next coach a full 4 year's worth of athletes. Willingham coached 3 of those classes and proved his incompetence after only his second game. His defense his first year won games for ND until they said "NO MAS" after the 8th game. Offense was completely incompetent.

So, Willingham, who had inherited an entire stable of athletes, lasted 8 games before the honeymoon was over. He had coached Holtz/Davie athletes into the ground, and was making no effort to help himself or the future of ND football.

Weis came around too late into the recruiting season. He had at best a few athletes left over from the Holtz/Davie infuence. He won for 2 years with that handful of athletes. He is honoring ND's commitment to Willingham's last recruits. And now, 3 years later, he is essentially starting the Weis era of football with 19 year old athletes.

Willingham killed the near future of Notre Dame football just as he did at Stanford. Stanford has not recovered still, and it is not because they miss him.

Weis's honoring of Willingham's handful of commits has turned this into the worst year of Notre Dame football.

Not until all signs of cancer have been contained can Weis claim this to be his team. Probably not even the fumbles.

I too thought that Charlie's extension was premature, but I figured that those in the know, know what they have been through and are wanting to make the correction. Time will tell.
 
M

Moostache

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There are basically two reasons I am not fully ready to burn Weis at the stake or hang him from a yard-arm for this mess just yet...

#1 - Recruiting classes have been a whole lot better than Ty's "efforts". This was already rumored to be an issue for Ty as far back as his initial class - the one with Quinn - when he apparently did not even want to offer Quinn in the first place.

For Weis, holding this incoming class together for February's signing day (and attracting at least 3-4 other 'big name' players to the fold) would go a long way towards me believing that a 4th season for Weis is not only justified but should not be challeneged except by brain-dead media types (think Mark May - the human penis) or race-baiting 'journalists' (think Jason Whitlock)

Weis absolutely deserves some of the blame for all of this (questionable decisions in pre-season camp seem to be the favored theory, but I subscribe more to the lack of allowing players to get quality minutes in the last two years as more of a root cause - that helped make the leadership void wider than absolutely necessary - also a point I will touch on again briefly...5th year disappointments) - but to lay it all on him; and to say crazy things like "his third year guys should be leading the program", is to ignore the fact that the current 3rd year guys are not really all his (again, fans in the know will understand the dynamics of recruiting, the timetable of the Weis hiring and the facts as they actually exist on this point). Its crazy to think that guys who had never even heard from Charlie Weis before January of 2005 would suddenly turn their backs on programs who had been actively involved in recruiting them for 2+ years and sign to play at ND! Yet, time and again I see people drag out the "this is Weis' 3rd class" mantra as if it were willed to them by the Dalai Lama!

Repeat after me everyone - "Charlie Weis is fully responsible for TWO recruiting classes and a salvage job on a third." His third full class will be signing in February, and so far they look to be a very, very solid effort and the cornerstone for potentially great results in the future. If the 2008 campaign looks ANYTHING like this one, and if by some act of Satan's will the Irish find themselves at 0-5 AGAIN in '08, then I will gladly become the self-appointed ombudsman of the "Can Charlie" campaign - complete with nifty little graphics and logos borrowed heavily from Starkist tuna. However, since it is my absolute belief that Weis does not have those three classes on the field yet, and the fact that prior to '07 he had put in back-to-back stellar efforts, I am not quite ready to break out the photoshop programs to start making banners at this time....

Weis' culpability in this mess extends to the fact that the current sophomore O-linemen, including Sam Young, are either poorly coached or vastly over-rated coming out of HS. Either way, it is not a positive reflection on Weis. If they are poorly coached, then he needs to ensure the coaching is stepped up. Perhaps there is some traction to the argument that Weis started the season intent on 'scheming' his way to a couple early-season wins (GT, UM with spread packages, etc.) and it simply blew up in his face...I don't buy it entirely though. These sophomores - Wenger, Carufel, Olsen, Stewart, Young - were supposed to be the core of the team. Now, maybe its also true that they are not quite ready to play in prime-time, but that theory takes a lot of shots in my book when you watch Auburn's 3 true freshmen play and play capably at Florida. Our SOPHOMORES can't play capably at HOME!!!

#2 - I have seen progress over the last 5 weeks. The fact that the progress is slow, and comes in fits and starts (think running game emerging in 1st half, albeit briefly, against MSU and the passing game emerging in the 2nd half against Purdue; also think of the defense in the first half against GT or in the 2nd half against PU) only tells me that Weis is dealing with an exceedingly young team and one that lacks the most indespensible thing a football team must have - solid senior leadership or solid 5th year senior leadership.

This is where the bare-cupboard is most damning for this team....many other articles exist to this general effect, and quite frankly, the kind of fans who will still be here at season's end already know those facts and where to find those analyes. I do not believe that Weis did not see this coming. In fact I am 100% certain that he did and that was the reason that there are currently 9 5th year guys on the team.

What follows is sure to be unpopular, as in a lot of ways as it is throwing good kids and good students under the bus for failed athletic performance - but know this before reading further; none of what follows is meant to denigrate any of these fine young men as a human being - only to point out their recent shortcomings as leaders and football players. The great thing about their ND experience is that I am 100% sure these will all be incredibly fine men in their other lifetime pursuits, and that this season in particular will help them rise to higher highs in their lives after the game than they may have attained without this crucible of a season.

These players have let down their coach, themselves and the program in numerous ways.

The most disappointing thing to me this season has not been the play of the underclassmen (sure, I wish the development was more apparent, that the OL was playing up to expectations - more likely to produce huge results sooner rather than later) - fact is young guys are going to be uneven and spotty at times, a situation only made worse when the guys around them are also inexperienced and young or ill-suited to their positions; but the play - and near complete lack of leadership displyed by the 5th year seniors - has been truly mystifying and crushingly disappointing, not to mention exceptionally harmful to this edition of the Irish.

To wit:

(**Note - Trevor Laws is exempt from this soon to be abrasive and scalding analysis of his classmates. He has been the lone bright spot in a class of unbelievable disappointment.)

Travis Thomas - nice leadership at PSU and with the other mindless penalties taken this year. He is a quality person off the field I am sure, but on the field this year he is a liability to the team and a horrid 'leader' as a second year captain. You simply cannot under estimate the damage that the combination has brought. As the season has progressed, his 'touches' have dimminished - and they will continue to do so; but the bigger problem is, that on a team in desperate need of someone to show the young players how to play at the D1 level, his idea of setting an example was to audition for the film version of the Miami vs. Florida International fight by MUGGING a PSU player on national TV in week 2 - before the season's ugly momentum had really started on a downward slide.

More than anything else, had you told me in August that Thomas would be doing such incredibly stupid things, I would have laughed. Sadly, the joke was on all of us who thought that TT was going to step up for this year's team and set an example for them to emulate throughout their ND careers.

Tom Zibikowski is now a shell of the player he was just 2 years ago. At one point I thought he could legitimately become the "next John Lynch-type safety" in the NFL...now? He'll be lucky to get a position in the CFL, and mainly as a gate attraction and a PR... I can't figure it out. Is he still injured? Did he somehow lose his pasion for football along the way? What can make a player go from an electrifying presence on defense and special teams into a guy who takes horrible angles (both to the ball carrier and to receivers) more often than not, gets beat down in one-on-one tackling situations - often times badly, fails to get off a block with any consistency and allows punts to bounce and roll into horrid field position on multiple occasions?

I will ALWAYS remember Tommy Z's strip and TD return against MSU and his INT and PR for a TD against Tennessee and his fumble recovery and TD against PSU in '06 and above all his PR against USC in '05; but the sad thing is he has regressed so far, so fast that the only logical explanation is a permanent injury of some kind that either makes him physically incapable of those plays or has rendered him psychologically unable to play with the abandon that once made him exciting to watch. Fact is that Kyle McCarthy looks like a better player now and I NEVER would have believed that before the season began. I thought TZ was going to be an awesome leader on this defense - a man who would pull the huddle together and instill a fire and refusal to lose in those young defenders, the guy who would inspire them to play beyond their years and beyond their abilities in some case to make a play. Hasn't happened. Not even close really....

John Sullivan - pre-season All-American? Surefire draft pick? Future NFL player? Best ND center since Faine? 5th year senior? Leader of the offense until the QB can gain enough experience to take the role over? ABJECT FAILURE in all cases. The numbers speak for themselves - last in offense, last in scoring, first in sacks allowed....that speaks more about players performances than coaches in some ways. Those are gut-check unacceptable numbers that Sullivan should have been SEETHING over and demanding to see improvement out the guys on his right and left each game. Instead, the O-Line has been a joke, a collossal punchline - no, check that, - a conga-line that simply ends in the ND backfield either at the QB or on a RB as he gets the ball.

Sullivan's performance mirrors Zibby's - he is playing worse now than he was two years back. The regression is stunning and a damning check mark against Weis and his staff. Were the guys around him in the past THAT much better than the new players? LeVoir? Stephenson? Morton? Did they actually cover up Sully's mistakes in the past and allow him to seem like a better player than he actually was - at least to casual observers? The answer is no. Those guys were no better than Carufel, Olsen, et. al. They may have made fewer mistakes and blown fewer assignments, but they weren't better players. Sullivan's performance has been awful.

John Carlson - Mackey Award Finalist? Future NFL pick? Maybe on the latter, no chance in hell on the former... Part of Carlson's failure are due to the horrific play of the OL and his essential removal from the passing game to keep from having Darrin Bragg as the only healthy body left at this point in the year. But even at that, his staying in to block has not improved the situation to date....its not like the QB has had an extra 3 seconds due to Carlson's vicious play at the line and skilled double team blocks. In fact, Carlson has missed as many blocks as the others and instead of displaying a new dimension of his game - adept blocking - he has essentially exposed himself as not-ready-for-primetime as a blocker in the NFL.

Last but not least, Geoff Price. I have always believed kickers and punters were odd in football to begin with, but his utter collapse from nearly perfect 2006 performance to the "Steve Sax of College Football" in 2007 is also utterly baffling. What a mess...

When people truly analyze what has gone wrong at ND this year, the play of these 5th years is right up there at the top of the list for reasons why the results have been so bad. Is that Willingham's fault? Hardly....he was unable to use these players in his tenure and Weis was able to milk some performance out of them all in 2005 and 2006. Yet this year, not ONE of these 5th year guys is what an outsider would look at and say "there's a real impact player for Notre Dame" (again, Laws is excepted).

I think we all expected to see Sullivan lead that young line to competence, if not dominance, by this point in the year. We may have believed that Zibby would have broken free and scored a few times by now, and would have delivered some devestating hits to break up passes or force punts in key suituations, or to would just fill the hole and make a tackle without getting run over or totally dominated by a blocker. We certainly believed that Carlson would be the new QB's best safety blanket and outlet receiver. We believed that Price would at the very worst help with field position games - just did not think that he would be helping the other team with bobbled snaps, shanked kicks and underwhelming hang times. We believed that Travis Thomas was going to be a stabilizing influence on the special teams and a hard-nosed runner in short yardage situations.

And guess what? I am reasonably certain that Weis expected all of the same things from them. Not ONE has materialized. ZERO. On a team desperately thin in experience, the one thing this season absolutley had to have to avoid a meltdown was senior leadership and a firm example by those leaders of how to play at the D1 level. Here we sit, 5 weeks into a disaster of Titanic-like proportions and the best players on this team (once again Trevor Laws excepted) are freshmen! Clasuen. Kamara. Tate. Hughes. Allen. There are also some very promising sophomores. Walls. Aldridge. Young (finally starting to play again). And others. The problem is that no one - inside, outside, ND lover or ND hater, - no one can look at this season and say that the 5th year senior leadership has made it better in any way at all.

Everyone knew the senior and junior classes this year were bad by historical measures. No one expected much, if anything from those classes anyway. This year's hope and dreams were laid on sophomores and freshmen and a select group of fifth year players who would teach them the ropes, guide them through the games and bring usher them into the role of "future of ND football". Well, they are absolutely the future of ND football still, they are just having to find the way there all on their own....

I believe wholeheartedly in the theory that inexperinece, coupled with a difficult start to the season and spiced up with a whole mess of mental errors and a LEADERSHIP CHASM on the team has baked us this shit-sandwhcih of a season. It is horrifying, nasty, distasteful and hard to choke back....made all the worse by the uncertainty at this point that next year won't bring another helping of the same - but, in the end, if this team's youth develops above their potential and billing - the hallmark a truly great coach, then they will bring back BCS games and talk of MNC in the near future and this painful stretch will become the furnace that forges the blade. If they do not develop beyond their potential, then mediocrity awaits and this season's nuclear winter will only serve to remind us all how close the program sits to the edge of oblivion without a truly great head coach....

Can or will Weis be that coach? At this point the answer is unclear, although there are enough reasons to have hope that it is not just "Kool-Aid" drinkers who can say "give Weis another year", rational and passionate fans can still hold out hope that things will be better soon...

Now, starting with upset wins over UCLA AND BC would go a long way towards salving the burnt skin of ND nation as we endure our metaphorical time in hell on earth....
 

Sureal

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good post moostache.

Everytime I read your post I copy it on worddoc and bring it to the
"throne of liberation" to occupy my time.

You always got a lot to say and it's always good...
 

kmoose

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I am trying to process this. Can someone help me, please? I read the 0-fer article and who is to blame. Tyrone left the cupboard bare so he is to blame. But Charlie won with Tyrone's guys for 2 years pretty consistently and didn't struggle until his 3rd year after having 2 full classes of his own recruits. This is history repeating itself isn't it? Tyrone won for 2 years consistently using Bob Davies guys and struggled in his third using 2 years of his own recruits. Aren't these pretty equivalent situations? Tyrone got fired, but Charlie is untouchable? Kindly explain?

First off, who said Charlie is untouchable? The only reason he got the extension is that the University was worried that he would end up getting lured away to the NFL. If NFL owners had been drooling all over Willingham after his first year, he probably would have gotten a similar deal.

Second, here is a great example of why most ND fans feel better about Weis than they did about Willingham. When Charlie's offense couldn't do anything right? He sent them back to "training camp" mode, and made some immediate improvements. When Willingham's offense was inept? He swore that he would turn Carlyle Holiday into a West Coast Offense QB. The result? Complete and utter failure. A coach has to tweak his system to the players' strenghths, not try to ask the players to do things they are incapable of doing. So throw out the records, which coach would you rather have? The one who seems to understand how to coach, or the one that doesn't seem to have a clue?
 

Sureal

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Next year we can't back him up. We are going to have to see some movement in the right direction beginning with the end of this year. I can't stomach another year like this. This is going to be a long offseason.

Yet,

When we win the NC in '09 we will have this stripe to show as ND fans. The loyal ones will be rewarded. Bear through it guys.
 

Irishtat

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Next year we can't back him up. We are going to have to see some movement in the right direction beginning with the end of this year. I can't stomach another year like this. This is going to be a long offseason.

Yet,

When we win the NC in '09 we will have this stripe to show as ND fans. The loyal ones will be rewarded. Bear through it guys.

Amen
 

piyachi

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Good post Moose -

I would say that I think the evaluation of the 5th year leadership is spot on in some cases, and IMO a bit far in others. Carlson has been scheme-wise placed into an awkward spot because everyone knows he is our most reliable receiver coming into a game so even when he isn't be held back to act as a blocker, he gets a lot of coverage whereas last year Samardzija and McKnight helped him get those big numbers. He has a lot of talent, it just isn't presented as well this year. He won't get the Mackey, but he is still one of, if not THE, best tight ends in this years class. Sullivan, Thomas, Zbikowski I totally agree. ESPECIALLY Sully... so disappointed there.

The coaching part - also agree. CW has done some things wrong (a lot less than I would in his position, haha) but overall has done a lot more things right. Playing to the strengths of his players - yes.

If what Sureal is saying is Nazi-esque propaganda, then you'll find me defending the Eagle's Nest (look it up if you don't know the reference).
 

Wham

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Good post Moose -

If what Sureal is saying is Nazi-esque propaganda, then you'll find me defending the Eagle's Nest (look it up if you don't know the reference).

"Eagle's nest" was Adolf Hitler's retreat.

What is your point piyachi?
 

piyachi

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My point is that if it's propaganda about Weis and ND, then I will be there to the bitterest of ends
 

Master Guns

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Next year we can't back him up. We are going to have to see some movement in the right direction beginning with the end of this year. I can't stomach another year like this. This is going to be a long offseason.

Yet,

When we win the NC in '09 we will have this stripe to show as ND fans. The loyal ones will be rewarded. Bear through it guys.

Yep, it will be put up or pack your bags next year for CW. I won't expect a NC next year, but it better be double digit wins and a bowl invite and win. NC should come the year after that.
 

MeanGreen

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great post moostache.
Basically what we have here and you have pointed out so very well is the failure of the upperclassmen. Not only does this materialize in the defeats that we have suffered but leadership and setting an example. Other teams have been able to incorporate first year starters into their lineups with very little drop off. I think this occurs for two reasons. Obviously the player has talent, but the team around them lead by example on gameday and everyday. I think this is very important for lineman. It is easier for a first year starter to perform well if he knows everyone around him is doing their job. No one wants to be the weakest link. The upperclassmen have to push the underclassmen to perform in practice and on gameday. The lack of numbers for the upperclass is also hurting us. Some of the underclassmen have been throw into starting position because of the lack of numbers. There was no competition to make anyone better. There is no one for the underclassmen to look up to and find what it takes to be a starter. The top programs are there because very few freshman are forced to carry any part of the team. They get the chance to see what it takes to be successful before they are expected to lead and contribute to the team. The upperclass may be more important to the attitude and work ethic of the team then its record. Tradition never graduates!

I think CW will change this, unfortunately w have to go through this growing pain this year. I believe next year will be better, probably very similar to 1987 or 1992. Then from '09 out this program should resemble its glorious past when the NC went through ND.
 
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