Brady Quinn Chokes in the Big games

[goldenechoes]

If you averaged his totals from all of his losses the past two seasons, Quinn would be passing for 309 yards, 2.4 TD's, and 1 int (55 % completion rate).

That completely puts that argument to bed.

 

[alexnd]

???

???

i hope you're wearing your sarcasm hat.

otherwise, you've wasted the time of everyone who happens upon this thread.

 

[njweinza]

it dont help when he's on his back after every play cause the O'line hasnt figured out how to block and also if u remember the receiver dropped a number of "crucial" passes against USC

 

[claynd105]

it dont help when he's on his back after every play cause the O'line hasnt figured out how to block and also if u remember the receiver dropped a number of "crucial" passes against USC

Same as in the Fiesta Bowl.

 

[goldenechoes]

Um...defintely sarcasm. Did you look at the numbers I put forward?

 

[claynd105]

Um...defintely sarcasm. Did you look at the numbers I put forward?

That is what I thought but I wasn't totally sure. I thought you were going to get flamed.

 

[alexnd]

If you averaged his totals from all of his losses the past two seasons, Quinn would be passing for 309 yards, 2.4 TD's, and 1 int (55 % completion rate).

That completely puts that argument to bed.

In all seriousness, posts like this are what have me so up in arms over the blanket 25 post rule that has been imposed upon this board to view the recruit profiles. What in the bloody hell does this add to the forum? Shouldnt there be Worthless Post points whereby posters could accumulate inconsequential post points leading to eventual non-access to the more interesting forums?

even if this is sarcastic (i hope it is) what does it add? Anyone who follows ND football knows brady has had a few suspect games over the past 2 years against the better teams. however, not only has he actually never laid an egg, but a number of other players have done more to contribute to the 5 defeats than B. Quinn. otherwordly misfortune (tipped pass pick sixes, crucial dropped balls, porous defense, etc) have had so very much mroe to do with the final scores than the alleged "choking" on quinn.

ridiculous.

 

[alexnd]

Um...defintely sarcasm. Did you look at the numbers I put forward?

understood. I'm not taking the non-access to the recruit profiles very well.

as you can tell.

 

[alexnd]

Um...defintely sarcasm. Did you look at the numbers I put forward?

And i'll throw out an apology for using your post/thread in my little rant. it wasnt appropriate.

I spend so much time fending off the ignorant at work (i live in socal) that i dont look forward to posting on irish-friendly boards. just burnt out i guess. I come here to get info, nothign else. 95% of the threads contain nothing more than blind speculation and redundance....just dont see the point.

i'm trying to get over it.

bear with me.

 

[BGIF]

In all seriousness, posts like this are what have me so up in arms over the blanket 25 post rule that has been imposed upon this board to view the recruit profiles. What in the bloody hell does this add to the forum? Shouldnt there be Worthless Post points whereby posters could accumulate inconsequential post points leading to eventual non-access to the more interesting forums?

even if this is sarcastic (i hope it is) what does it add? Anyone who follows ND football knows brady has had a few suspect games over the past 2 years against the better teams. however, not only has he actually never laid an egg, but a number of other players have done more to contribute to the 5 defeats than B. Quinn. otherwordly misfortune (tipped pass pick sixes, crucial dropped balls, porous defense, etc) have had so very much mroe to do with the final scores than the alleged "choking" on quinn.

ridiculous.

Rep for the new guy!

Agree with the Blanket 25/Worthless Posts Points and that Brady has had suspect games and he don't play alone. Those were team losses.

 

[goldenechoes]

Rep for the new guy!

Agree with the Blanket 25/Worthless Posts Points and that Brady has had suspect games and he don't play alone. Those were team losses.

Sigh...I guess I'm going to have to teach a class called sarcasm 101.

My initial statement was one that we as Irish fans hear every day. Then the body of the post was a contradiction of the first statement showing that Brady Quinn has good numbers even in losses. I even ended the paragraph stating that the intial argument was put to rest.

Class dismissed. You guys are way too uptight.

 

[Clotho]

First off I get a lot of flack from absolute morons here for being a bad poster, but these people do not work hard on any of their posts, put in as little effort as possible, often state stupid things without any logical defense of what they say, and counter valid, well-reasoned and thoroughly researched arguments with, "Yea so? You're not a real fan." So I want to preface this post, which will have taken me a considerable amount of adding and substracting and dividing and rounding up, by saying that if you don't like me, bite me- I research my opinions, they are valid opinions, and I can always explain them in a way satisfactory to any reasonable person. Now, on to the thread.

Double whammy of a thread. First you have the fallacious reasoning in the initial (sarcastic) post, then you have a bunch of people unable to read the post properly and realize that it's sarcastic, and is intended to argue that Quinn is no worse in "big games" than in other games.

Here's why it's fallacious reasoning- you erroneously, and dishonestly define "big game" as "a game ND lost." In doing so you get to include Michigan State last year- NOT a big game by any stretch of the imagination, neither a major rival nor a top opponent- and by including this game, you get to throw in 480 some odd yards and 5 tds. Also, you conveniently get to omit Quinn's game last year against Michigan.

Here are major games the past two years- Michigan twice, USC twice, and Ohio State in the Fiesta. Because, for ND, big games are the big two rivalries (Michigan, USC), games against top 10 teams, and bowl games. And that's it.

The averages then become-

239.6 yds, 1.8 TD, 0.8 INT, 56% completions, 5.90 yards per attempt

Those are Brady's big game numbers the past two years. Not your

309 yds, 2.4 TD, 1 INT, 55% completions

More importantly, however, and the only way those numbers of mine are meaningful, are Brady's numbers in the other games. In the games that aren't inherently big. Here are Brady's numbers in the other games (all games but Michigan twice, USC twice, and OSU in the Fiesta) the past two seasons-

315.7 yds, 3.1 TD, 0.4 INT, 67% completions, 8.84 yards per attempt

So let's compare Brady in big games to Brady in other games, the past two years-

Regular games- 315.7 yds, 3.1 TD, 0.4 INT, 67% completions, 8.84 yards per attempt
Big games- 239.6 yds, 1.8 TD, 0.8 INT, 56% completions, 5.90 yards per attempt


You catchin' my drift? Hate on me all you like. Those are the numbers. And here are a couple more-

In that time the Irish are 18-1 in regular games, 1-4 in big games.

 

[alexnd]

Sigh...I guess I'm going to have to teach a class called sarcasm 101.

My initial statement was one that we as Irish fans hear every day. Then the body of the post was a contradiction of the first statement showing that Brady Quinn has good numbers even in losses. I even ended the paragraph stating that the intial argument was put to rest.

Class dismissed. You guys are way too uptight.

A note: sarcasm plays very poorly through the written word and typically adds very little if anything to the conversation.

Anywho, this really gets to the core of my problem with the post quota....these boards are already infested with enough threads and posts re: info/theories/opinions that have a.) been beaten to death, b.) are completely obvious, or c.) sorta useless.

That said, there are plenty of posts and threads that have real information and fresh ideas worthy of being fleshed out. Seeking real info such as practice and player insight from current students, recruiting tidbits from people who actually know what they're talking about (jigga, svoboda, and the like) as opposed to blind speculation, gametape breakdown, real info re: who's coming back for their fifth year (carlson, laws, sully, tt!), and the like is what brought me here from time to time.

Back to the point: we all get it. we all watched the games. we all read the recaps. we all pored over the box scores. we all know brady didnt choke in the big games. thank you for creating another thread that will further hide the few worthwhile threads that should have received more attention, but have been relegated to page 3, 4, 5, 6, and on.

this post quota is only making it worse. more posts about how minter should go without any original defensive breakdown insight or how they think JC is OMG better than the other QBs without supporting said belief with anything fresh such as a solid review of their gametapes and how their particular tendencies that would fit in with what Weis wants to do next year. what do 99% of you guys really know about the situation?

I get the whole message board thing and appreciate opinions being thrown around. we're here to kill time and some people just like posting their opinions without mentioning much foundation in a light hearted manner, but why should one be forced to? is irishenvy.com gradually creeping towards pay-site ville?

Svoboda mentioned something about the participation % being low compared to other sites being one of (if not the only) the main drivers for the quota. perhaps that isnt such a bad thing.

 

[Clotho]

we all know brady didnt choke in the big games

Bull. If nothing else, then, this thread is valuable for having provided me the opportunity to dispel the notion that Quinn hasn't choked in big games. He certainly has. He's got one left. We'll see how it goes.

 

[alexnd]

So let's compare Brady in big games to Brady in other games, the past two years-

Regular games- 315.7 yds, 3.1 TD, 0.4 INT, 67% completions, 8.84 yards per attempt
Big games- 239.6 yds, 1.8 TD, 0.8 INT, 56% completions, 5.90 yards per attempt


You catchin' my drift? Hate on me all you like. Those are the numbers.

There we go!

I dig this. Now we have something to really talk about. Now, averages with small sample sizes being the issue that it is, we can still look into what exactly happened in these games.

First, the obvious....good teams are, well, good. They tend to make manifest the opposition's less stellar performances. Hell, as a tengential issue look at LSU's game by game statlines....see anything there?

Anywho, what has been pretty prevalent in most of those games was pressure on the qb or certain gameplanning that actually contributed to deflated stats.
UM05 - 4 sacks, rhema injury, inconsistent run game. 2 td, 0 int

USC05 - here's the gameplanning leading to deflated stats game. Employing a quick drop, draw, slant, flat, quick hitting offense most rate stats are going to suffer. 2 sacks, 1 td pass, 1 td rush, 1 int.

OSU05 - 5 sacks, pressured all day. however, no ints. this is the sort of game that a team with a competent defense wins. brady did everything he could to give the team a chance, but was running for his life too often to do much more.

UM06 - dear Lord we all saw this. every little mistake was eaten up. 3 ints. one right out of the hands of a receiver, one tipped at the line, another on a truly great play by a db. brady was being chased from square one. this wasnt some sort of ordinary pressure...UCLA and GT provided that. this was a "brady will feel these hits for years" type of pressure. the real egg of a game. again, with even average line play this is completely different.

USC06 - 3td, 0int. again, was brady did every-effing-thing he could except for maybe throw balls to himself. still, he made some poor throws. over throws, underthrows, etc. not a great performance, but again, a game that is won with a competent defense.

in the end...brady played poorly in both UM games but minimized the killer mistakes in one and got the W. did everything he was supposed to do against OSU and USC both years. too many extenuating circumstances (terrible d and o-line play) to expect much else.

 

[alexnd]

Bull. If nothing else, then, this thread is valuable for having provided me the opportunity to dispel the notion that Quinn hasn't choked in big games. He certainly has. He's got one left. We'll see how it goes.

I guess this gets down to what your def of "choke" happens to be. ints thrown into triple coverage consistently misthrown balls without pressure, etc seem more in line of choking.

the two michigan games can be argued that perhaps choking or something close to it occurred, but in the other games, while not necessarily doing enought o ensure victory, he most certainly didnt choke.

unless, of course, winning the game regardless of circumstance is the only way to avoid choke status, then yes, he's choked.

however, not throwing the ball around the yard as though he was plaing against BYU shouldnt be considered the baseline.

seriously, though....only 4 pics, 3 of which were tips, in the 5 big games.....c'mon.

 

[ShivaIrish]

A note: sarcasm plays very poorly through the written word and typically adds very little if anything to the conversation.

Anywho, this really gets to the core of my problem with the post quota....these boards are already infested with enough threads and posts re: info/theories/opinions that have a.) been beaten to death, b.) are completely obvious, or c.) sorta useless.

That said, there are plenty of posts and threads that have real information and fresh ideas worthy of being fleshed out. Seeking real info such as practice and player insight from current students, recruiting tidbits from people who actually know what they're talking about (jigga, svoboda, and the like) as opposed to blind speculation, gametape breakdown, real info re: who's coming back for their fifth year (carlson, laws, sully, tt!), and the like is what brought me here from time to time.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I don't come here just for the valid information, but also the community aspect. I like the camraderie that is displayed (even if it is over the internet), and even if it is ND info. that is what got me here in the first place, I've grown to like coming into contact with other ND fans. Sure there's seemingly wortheless posts, and they've increased lately--but you take the good, you take the bad...

 

[alexnd]

Further, choking typically implies a certain high expectation level shattered by a terrible performance. With that, you shouldnt really consider the UM05 game as not only were we expected to lose, but brady was not expected to really do anything. not that we expected a terrible game from him, rather most, prior ot the game, would have just been happy with a W. Which we got. It's not fair to talk retrospectively about choking as that would imply that there was some sort of expectation of excellence at the time.

 

[Irishman10]

Sigh...I guess I'm going to have to teach a class called sarcasm 101.

My initial statement was one that we as Irish fans hear every day. Then the body of the post was a contradiction of the first statement showing that Brady Quinn has good numbers even in losses. I even ended the paragraph stating that the intial argument was put to rest.

Class dismissed. You guys are way too uptight.

I liked the thread lol. I fight with Brady haters all the time on other boards who say Quinn chokes in big games. Now I have more concrete numbers to dispute their idiocy.

 

[goldenechoes]

A note: sarcasm plays very poorly through the written word and typically adds very little if anything to the conversation.

Anywho, this really gets to the core of my problem with the post quota....these boards are already infested with enough threads and posts re: info/theories/opinions that have a.) been beaten to death, b.) are completely obvious, or c.) sorta useless.

That said, there are plenty of posts and threads that have real information and fresh ideas worthy of being fleshed out. Seeking real info such as practice and player insight from current students, recruiting tidbits from people who actually know what they're talking about (jigga, svoboda, and the like) as opposed to blind speculation, gametape breakdown, real info re: who's coming back for their fifth year (carlson, laws, sully, tt!), and the like is what brought me here from time to time.

Back to the point: we all get it. we all watched the games. we all read the recaps. we all pored over the box scores. we all know brady didnt choke in the big games. thank you for creating another thread that will further hide the few worthwhile threads that should have received more attention, but have been relegated to page 3, 4, 5, 6, and on.

this post quota is only making it worse. more posts about how minter should go without any original defensive breakdown insight or how they think JC is OMG better than the other QBs without supporting said belief with anything fresh such as a solid review of their gametapes and how their particular tendencies that would fit in with what Weis wants to do next year. what do 99% of you guys really know about the situation?

I get the whole message board thing and appreciate opinions being thrown around. we're here to kill time and some people just like posting their opinions without mentioning much foundation in a light hearted manner, but why should one be forced to? is irishenvy.com gradually creeping towards pay-site ville?

Svoboda mentioned something about the participation % being low compared to other sites being one of (if not the only) the main drivers for the quota. perhaps that isnt such a bad thing.

Take a deep breath. Exhale. Feel better?

We have a month to talk about something/anything/nothing until there is a bowl game. This is a general board. Youre going to get idle chatter.

Now if you are looking for wisdom on a message board you really need to get out more.

 

[alexnd]

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I don't come here just for the valid information, but also the community aspect. I like the camraderie that is displayed (even if it is over the internet), and even if it is ND info. that is what got me here in the first place, I've grown to like coming into contact with other ND fans. Sure there's seemingly wortheless posts, and they've increased lately--but you take the good, you take the bad...

Which is something i understand. However, I dont understand being forced to post. Just strikes me as odd. hell, what happens when i finally reach the top of the dune with my 25th post? i'm pretty sure i'll be greeted with an even higher dune taking the form of a 50 post quota, thereby exacerbating the noise issue and pushing even more merely curious people to other websites.

 

[alexnd]

Take a deep breath. Exhale. Feel better?

We have a month to talk about something/anything/nothing until there is a bowl game. This is a general board. Youre going to get idle chatter.

Now if you are looking for wisdom on a message board you really need to get out more.

Again, i get it. I'm not looking for wisdom or companionship or community or whatever in a general ND football board. I did, however, enjoy what real info i could glean from the recruiting profiles. I'm no longer able to do so. hence, my presence here half rambling about ND football and half rambling about the quota issue to get past the quota issue.

 

[goldenechoes]

First off I get a lot of flack from absolute morons here for being a bad poster, but these people do not work hard on any of their posts, put in as little effort as possible, often state stupid things without any logical defense of what they say, and counter valid, well-reasoned and thoroughly researched arguments with, "Yea so? You're not a real fan." So I want to preface this post, which will have taken me a considerable amount of adding and substracting and dividing and rounding up, by saying that if you don't like me, bite me- I research my opinions, they are valid opinions, and I can always explain them in a way satisfactory to any reasonable person. Now, on to the thread.

Double whammy of a thread. First you have the fallacious reasoning in the initial (sarcastic) post, then you have a bunch of people unable to read the post properly and realize that it's sarcastic, and is intended to argue that Quinn is no worse in "big games" than in other games.

Here's why it's fallacious reasoning- you erroneously, and dishonestly define "big game" as "a game ND lost." In doing so you get to include Michigan State last year- NOT a big game by any stretch of the imagination, neither a major rival nor a top opponent- and by including this game, you get to throw in 480 some odd yards and 5 tds. Also, you conveniently get to omit Quinn's game last year against Michigan.

Here are major games the past two years- Michigan twice, USC twice, and Ohio State in the Fiesta. Because, for ND, big games are the big two rivalries (Michigan, USC), games against top 10 teams, and bowl games. And that's it.

The averages then become-

239.6 yds, 1.8 TD, 0.8 INT, 56% completions, 5.90 yards per attempt

Those are Brady's big game numbers the past two years. Not your

309 yds, 2.4 TD, 1 INT, 55% completions

More importantly, however, and the only way those numbers of mine are meaningful, are Brady's numbers in the other games. In the games that aren't inherently big. Here are Brady's numbers in the other games (all games but Michigan twice, USC twice, and OSU in the Fiesta) the past two seasons-

315.7 yds, 3.1 TD, 0.4 INT, 67% completions, 8.84 yards per attempt

So let's compare Brady in big games to Brady in other games, the past two years-

Regular games- 315.7 yds, 3.1 TD, 0.4 INT, 67% completions, 8.84 yards per attempt
Big games- 239.6 yds, 1.8 TD, 0.8 INT, 56% completions, 5.90 yards per attempt


You catchin' my drift? Hate on me all you like. Those are the numbers. And here are a couple more-

In that time the Irish are 18-1 in regular games, 1-4 in big games.

See my biggest contention with your claim is that these "Big games", as you define them, have one thing in common. They are all vastly superior talent-wise than we are. So does Brady Quinn do worse in games in which the opposite team is more talented at every position except QB? Well yeah....duh.

If anyone is not pulling their weight in these loses, it is most certainly not Quinn. Does he have bad games in his career? yeah. But what do you want from him?

If you look at Quinn and what he has gone through and also accomplished these past 4 years, and dont see a winner, then I dont know what to tell you.

 

[goldenechoes]

Again, i get it. I'm not looking for wisdom or companionship or community or whatever in a general ND football board. I did, however, enjoy what real info i could glean from the recruiting profiles. I'm no longer able to do so. hence, my presence here half rambling about ND football and half rambling about the quota issue to get past the quota issue.

So at least in our useless banter, you are that much closer to being able to view the profiles. Glad I could help. :swordfigh

But this minimal post count issue has brought out the xenophobe in all the regs. When posters start identifying themselves as being more valuable to the community, due to their time and self-perceived worth, it can get ugly. Pretty soon all the new posters will sink back into the oblivion of anonymity.

 

[iloveirish_12]

No, I don't think its Brady. I think Weis can't win the big game. Name one big game that has been hyped up that he won.

 

[southbend62]

No, I don't think its Brady. I think Weis can't win the big game. Name one big game that has been hyped up that he won.

Really? You want to blame Charlie? Before Charlie the team went 6-5...his first year 9-2 his second year 10-2. Same players by the way...Charlie got more performance out of these same kids that Ty could not get. Charlie's teams will win the big games...you just need to give him time.

 

[jerseyborn1971]

Guys, we will NEVER be able to convince each other that either Brady is a choker or he isn't and if CW can't win the big game or he can. Discussing it is one thing, but arguing about it and insulting each other? Now that's a useless post. I've finally realized that. This is a message board about football, get a grip. Some of you guys think you're writing for a sports publication. Some of you guys take days to think through posts and then evaluate other posts for the amount of research that went into it? And if it doesn't meet your standards, you insult the poster. Whoa. Ease up. It's a message board about football. You're not being graded and people aren't telling their friends about the clarity and attention to detail in your reports.

Relax and have some fun.

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

No, I don't think its Brady. I think Weis can't win the big game. Name one big game that has been hyped up that he won.

So it would be safe to assume that you didn't see the Penn State game as a hyped up event?

 

[irishfan]

Bull. If nothing else, then, this thread is valuable for having provided me the opportunity to dispel the notion that Quinn hasn't choked in big games. He certainly has. He's got one left. We'll see how it goes.

He didn't choke in four of those five games. The only game that you can possibly have an argument for him choking in is the Michigan game from this year. Please explain to me how he choked in those other four games. Against USC this year, he went 22/45 with 274 yards with 3 touchdowns and no ints. If it werent for dropped passes, then his stats would have been ever more impressive. Last year against Ohio State? 29/45 for 285 yards with no touchdowns, but no interceptions. Same thing as the USC game, dropped passes killed his stats. USC last year? 19/35 for 254 yards with 1 touchdown and 1 interception. That interception came on a failed flea-flicker, when Quinn's passed was tipped into the air. He also ran for a touchdown. His stats would have been much better if Charlie Weis didnt call for a ball-control offense that day. Michigan last year? 19/30 for 140 yards and 2 touchdowns and no interceptions. Not too bad playing in Ann Arbor with just his second game in the new offense. You complain about people who put in little effort into their posts, but if you want to talk about people who "say stupid things without any logical defense of what they say," then just look at your last post. To just claim that Quinn has "choked" in all of his 5 big games, is just a joke.

 

[NDAlumSon]

Reps for the new guy. Cogent, coherent and well written posts.
And he brings up a valid argument about quotas and, more importantly, about mindless posts.
I admire your stick-to-it-ivness Clotho, but alas you still come off as excessive.