Charlie's practice regimen

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NDAlumSon

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I'm going to repost something I posted back in August about injuries to make a point and ask you guys a question.

"Also gotta believe that professional-style practice techniques which, by the way Charlie brought with him, are designed to minimize such possibilties, as much as is possible anyway.
After all, pro franchises can ill afford to have multi-million dollar contracts sitting injured on the sidelines. Again, only as much as is possible because as we all know, injuries are part of the game."

Charlie's practices tend to emphasize technique and execution while basically foregoing full-pad, full-contact, all-out head banging in an attempt to keep players both healthy and fresh for Saturdays. He's even said he doesn't want guys finishing tackles in practice.

But I see a lot of poor tackling techniques out there.
Guys off balance.
Guys dropping to their knees just as they're delivering a hit.
Guys reaching and making arm tackles.
Guys not wrapping up and driving through ball carriers as they hit them.
Basically just bad tackling !

My question is: Do you think Charlie's low-impact practices have backfired with regards to the lack of physicality, especially in the area of tackling. And thus should these guys be beating the hell out of each other more in practice to get better at punishing ball carriers?


 

marv81s

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I believe anytime you don't pay enough attention to the fundamentals and practice good techniques over and over again, you forget them and they start to go away. Wrapping a guy up and breaking down to get in a good tackling position is basic football. The piss poor tackling really game out yesterday. Gotta believe that CW will be working on that this week.
 
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Papabear

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Many coaches do not go full contact during the season the risk of injury is too great. Another reason that Coach Weis would be hesitant to do more full contact drills is the fact that the depth is not there. If a front-line player goes down with a serious injury, ND does not have the personnel to bounce back from this injury like a Michigan or USC. One of the most important variables in having a good season this year was staying healthy. If there is any reason practice is scaled back, I would think that this is it.
 
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NDAlumSon

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All excellent points PapaBear. Methinks you're probably right.
So then, what now?
I say make them hit tackling dummies over and over and over.
 

domerfor life

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All excellent points PapaBear. Methinks you're probably right.
So then, what now?
I say make them hit tackling dummies over and over and over.

Do something. The tackling was just unbearable Saturday. Just very, very bad. It wasn't that great against MSU either. Don't just freaking dive and try to arm tackle a guy. Get in position and then run through him. Lambert did make a couple of good tackles Saturday. I remember one on Bryant that was textbook. The tackle to force the fumble was good as well.
 

BGIF

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Many coaches do not go full contact during the season the risk of injury is too great. Another reason that Coach Weis would be hesitant to do more full contact drills is the fact that the depth is not there. If a front-line player goes down with a serious injury, ND does not have the personnel to bounce back from this injury like a Michigan or USC. One of the most important variables in having a good season this year was staying healthy. If there is any reason practice is scaled back, I would think that this is it.

Amen!

This isn't the Rockne, Leahy, or Parshegian era. They don't play the best 11 for 60 minutes (Rockne and Leahy) nor are there unlimited scholarship. Take a look at the '72 Championship there's a 140 players in the photo. The game has changed since then in Div 1. There are only 85 scholarships today and ND doesn't even have that many. Now deduct the maimed and walking wounded (most we don't even know about).

Lou Holtz wasn't a fan of a red jersey for QBs until his 93 starting QB was knocked out for the season in practice the week before the season opened. Davie took crap from fans for the point scoring system in the B&G game. I went to that game specifically to see Getherall run back punts. No Kick Returns - too high a potential for injury we were told. During the '97 season Davie had to limit practice intensity due to the huge number of injuries (I used to track them from daily reports). ND had something like 52 scholarship players available to play. Remember the game where Stanford ran all over ND? There were 4 LBs out with injuries. ND started a walkon and played another in that game with the obvious effect, Stanford had a pair of 100 yd rushers and a win.

ND has played the #1 toughest schedule in the nation. Five tough opponents with no breather, no week off to mend. Starting FB - out, Starting LB - out, Starting CB - out, Starting Kickoff Returner - out, #3 WR - Out (before the season started), even Renkes is out. Morton went down in the PU game. Harris missed preseason camp without injuries and I suspect is still feeling the effects. Ferrine missed the 1st 4 games due to injury. I've seen Gordon on the sideline on crutches. There are others. And there is NO DEPTH behind most of these guys. The dropoff isn't between #1 and #2 in reality it's #1 to a #3 or #4.

Let's go back to smashmouth fooball! Yeah, Line 'em 1st team against 1st team!Testosterone! Last man standing! Hit 'em, hit'em, hit'em.

Do you wanna lose Crum to a practice injury? Despite the lamentations about Abiamiri, Laws, Landri, or Fromme do you want their replacements playing 30 mintues a game? A lot of guys screamed for Walls to play and there are those screaming for Toryan to start at MLB("Start The Freshman!") . Get real.

Walls played and got torched. Not once, not twice, routinely. And not against the Boilers #1 receiver, nor against their #2 WR. ND shut those two down. Walls lined up against their least productive WR. Walls may be an All-America some day (I hope so) but I didn't get visions of Bobby Taylor as a freshman watching Darrin against PU, and neither did any of you. He's the answer in the future. Not today. Young is the answer in the future, not today, otherwise Duncan wouldn't be spelling him.

Which RB should ND use for the live tackling drill we do have an abundance of healthy bodies back there, do we? Oh that's right there's another position due to recruiting and injury that's hurting. Should we sacrifice Aldridge's knees for live tackling or give Prince 40 carries in practice as the tackling dummy? Walker balked at going through the gauntlet machine last week. Perhaps 25 full contact tackles on Walker or Rhema this midweek will provide fresh legs for Stanford. It'd be great to see Anastasio start wouldn't it?

The numbers aren't there for full bore practice today. Tackling can be worked on otherwise.

But let's be realistic. If the score of the PU game was 35-14 most of these kind of posts wouldn't have materialized, would they? If it was for the 88 yard TD everybody's throwing back a beer and enjoying the day, like scooper. If Walls had made the INT or knocked it away, or - made the tackle, no thread. Or if Zibby had made the tackle. Was Zibby, the boxer, the mauler, really trying to make an arm tackle? Was he trying to blow up the receiver ala a Ndukwe hit to get the Selwyn Lymon to drop the ball by only using one arm? Was Zibby gambling on a strip and missed?

I've played back that play several times. If you watch the sequence, Walls has his hand on the WR's right shoulder. Lymon spins counterclockwise and goes upfield, either intentionally to slip Walls grab, or because Walls spun him. Meanwhile Zibby runs right through the space Lymon would have occupied had he not spun counterclockwise. Half a step different and Lymon would have been run over by a truck.

The announcer said two ND defenders ran into each other. They didn't make contact with each other. One's behind Lymon; the other in front. I'd like to give Lymon credit for a Bushlike move. We'd all be praising a great catch and elusive move if Rhema or Jeff had done so, wouldn't we? But I think the move was serendipitous. Lymon didn't know he was about to get clocked by Zibby. But as he turned counterclockwise reducing his profile ZIbby whiffs on the smaller profile.

Lambert gets praise for his aggressive tackle, forced fumble, and fumble recovery. I keep reading about wrapping on the tackle and driving through. But I'm apparently the only one who didn't see Lambert get his arms on the ball carrier. Watch the replay. Lambert dives at his feet. He looks like a kid playing leapfrog as the ball carrier goes over the top of him and fumbles.

Yes, there's room for improvement. But when our ball carrier eludes a tackler it's a great run or great YAC. When the other guys do it, it's only because of very, very bad tackling. The worse ever. Sometimes the other guys can play as well, particularly when they play for decent teams with mulitple weapons.
 
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NDAlumSon

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ND has played the #1 toughest schedule in the nation. Five tough opponents with no breather, no week off to mend. Starting FB - out, Starting LB - out, Starting CB - out, Starting Kickoff Returner - out, #3 WR - Out (before the season started), even Renkes is out. Morton went down in the PU game. Harris missed preseason camp without injuries and I suspect is still feeling the effects. Ferrine missed the 1st 4 games due to injury. I've seen Gordon on the sideline on crutches. There are others. And there is NO DEPTH behind most of these guys. The dropoff isn't between #1 and #2 in reality it's #1 to a #3 or #4.

All true.

Let's go back to smashmouth fooball! Yeah, Line 'em 1st team against 1st team!Testosterone! Last man standing! Hit 'em, hit'em, hit'em.

I know you're being facetious but that's a little disingenuous.
Tackling practice isn't 11 on 11. It's 1 on 1. Where the risk of injury is very small.
A tackling drill is one man with a ball and another man charged with tackling the first.
You separate them at five yards, with a five yard wide boundary, and may the best man win. The tackler works on "breaking down" into a low, balanced position then explodes up and into the ball carrier while wrapping his arms around the carrier and driving his legs until that man is brought down. Or....he can get his ass run over !
Either way, it may be the most common movement a football player makes and one which is quite low risk from an injury standpoint.


Do you wanna lose Crum to a practice injury? Despite the lamentations about Abiamiri, Laws, Landri, or Fromme do you want their replacements playing 30 mintues a game? Get real.

Obviously not ! See tackling practice point above.

Walls played and got torched. Not once, not twice, routinely. And not against the Boilers #1 receiver, nor against their #2 WR. ND shut those two down. Walls lined up against their least productive WR. Walls may be an All-America some day (I hope so) but I didn't get visions of Bobby Taylor as a freshman watching Darrin against PU, and neither did any of you. He's the answer in the future. Not today. Young is the answer in the future, not today, otherwise Duncan wouldn't be spelling him.

Cornerbacks chasing a receiver downfield for a tackle are beside the point.
I'm talking about pure tackling in run support.
Sam Young is certainly outside of my point.

Which RB should ND use for the live tackling drill we do have an abundance of healthy bodies back there, do we?

That's what the scout team is for.
Either that or "Rudy" was pure fiction.
The ball carrier doesn't have to be a RB to practice tackling.

Oh that's right there's another position due to recruiting and injury that's hurting.

Something tells me that if Ty or Bob were the ballcarrier, you'd be all for it.

Should we sacrifice Aldridge's knees for live tackling or give Prince 40 carries in practice as the tackling dummy? Walker balked at going through the gauntlet machine last week. Perhaps 25 full contact tackles on Walker or Rhema this midweek will provide fresh legs for Stanford.

Your facetiousness is showing.
Once again, the ball carrier doesn't have to be a RB to practice tackling.

Tackling can be worked on otherwise.

If different than my description of the drill stated above or my suggestion in the original post about using tackling dummys, please explain.

But let's be realistic. If the score of the PU game was 35-14 most of these kind of posts wouldn't have materialized, would they?

C'mon BGIF. If ND defenders tackled with the passion with which you post, we'd be holding teams to 150 yards of offense a game.
The score of the game has nothing to do with poor tackling.

But I'm apparently the only one who didn't see Lambert get his arms on the ball carrier. Watch the replay. Lambert dives at his feet. He looks like a kid playing leapfrog as the ball carrier goes over the top of him and fumbles.

You saw that right. And....

Yes, there's room for improvement.

That's all I'm sayin'.
The question remains: If you don't practice tackling at full speed, sometime, how do you improve at it? You can work on "breaking down" and getting low in shorts and t-shirts, granted. You can work on coming up into the ballcarrier and wrapping up in shorts and shoulder pads, sure. But to work on the final phase of tackling, that is driving through the ball carrier and getting him to the ground,...that has to be done in full pads and at full speed at least some of the time.
In watching ND tackling over the first 5 games, I think it needs to be addressed and practiced.
 
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rontdtarchala

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ndalumson couldn't agree more many rep points on that.....we must tackle better to do that it must be practiced over and over
 

Hoosier95

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Anybody see the end of the Redskins/Jags game Sunday and see a similarity between the last play in OT and the Zibby missing on Lymon?

I think you can stress fundamentals without having to drill it in the middle of the season. Zibby flat out missed trying to lay a haymaker.

You don't think Lewis is drilling them in the film room and they aren't harping on it on the field?
 

BGIF

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... You don't think Lewis is drilling them in the film room and they aren't harping on it on the field?

Or Minter, or or Oliver, or Weis?

The coaching staff has over 200 years of coaching experience.

The players know calculus but supposedly have forgotten basic skills in the 5 weeks since summer camp even though they get to watch film of their performance with the entire coaching staff and team critiquing.
 
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NDAlumSon

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Eat your green beans ! Eat your broccoli ! Eat your cauliflower ! Eat your peas !
Yeah well.......until you actually do, there's no nutritional value in words alone.
 

BGIF

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Eat your green beans ! Eat your broccoli ! Eat your cauliflower ! Eat your peas !
Yeah well.......until you actually do, there's no nutritional value in words alone.

To stay with your example, first you were complaining that the children weren't chewing properly all the time, now you claiming they don't eat one third to one half of what's on their plates! Apparently that live action fork drill you ran after lunch wasn't the answer.

They're not 5 year olds. They're 20. They know there are consequences for their actions or inactions.

"Zbikowski no dessert Saturday for not finishing off your Lymon. Herring you're starting against Stanford."

Words have a hell of a motivational value, particularly when served cold at a team film review. The whole room gets the message, even the non-vegetarians.
 
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NDAlumSon

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I don't know about you, but I feel like some stir-fry and spring rolls. Or minestrone.
Actually, I was waiting for irishnd31 to be here decrying the fact that cabbage was not included in this nutritional metaphor.
 

BGIF

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I don't know about you, but I feel like some stir-fry and spring rolls. Or minestrone.
Actually, I was waiting for irishnd31 to be here decrying the fact that cabbage was not included in this nutritional metaphor.

Now the threat of having to live in the kitchen where the cabbage is cooked would improve tackling 100%. It might even give Darius 4th gear.
 
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NDAlumSon

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Now the threat of having to live in the kitchen where the cabbage is cooked would improve tackling 100%. It might even give Darius 4th gear.
:yes:
If fourth gear is the same as the 'trots'.
 
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