Is ND's lack of depth due to transfers?

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irish4life99

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Had another poster say that the recent lack of depth is due to transfers that was caused because of the coaching change. I disagree, especially after seeing the list of a dozen transgers that this poster supplied. Here it is:

Isiah Gardner DB
Freddie Parrish DB
Labrose Hedgemon DB
David Wolke QB
Chris Vaughn WR
Chauncy Incarnato Lineman
Brandon Nicolas Lineman
Justin Hoskins RB
Treg Duerson DB
John Kadous Lineman
Abdel Banda LB
Joey Hiben TE

First, who cares if Wolke transfers to Indiana? The guy is like practice squad material. Hello, Claussen, Jones, and Frazier sitting there.

How about Hiben that transferred because of academics, WTF does that have to do with Ty? But hey, who am I just one giant idiot right.

I think that it was more the lack of recruiting than transfers.

What do all of you think?
 
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solo

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The lack of depth is because Tyrone did an awful job of recruiting. Really, that's the beginning and the end of the story. We will be paying for that hiring mistake for at least one more year.
 

scooper

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Actually, that's partly correct. Specifically, Gardner, Vaughn and Hiben could be making significant contributions and add serious depth. Not to mention probably start next season. Although Hiben's was academic and he didn't transfer, so he can't be counted against the coaching change. And Vaughn hasn't done much at UL, getting two catches for 27 yards.

Who among the others is going to star anywhere else? The big losses were supposedly the OL. Here is where they are:

Incarnato-Indiana. Had to sit out 05. Can't be found on the 06 depth chart.
John KadousIs no longer playing college ball anywhere.
Brandon NicolasBrought in as O-line, transferred to Colorado and is starting at NT.

So three Olinemen signed that year, with two the next and 3/5 are now gone. Only one of the three transfers is really a big loss on the surface, but the depth is bad. This tells you not only were not enough guys signed, but the ones that were for the most part ,weren't very good.

For all the depth issues inherited by this staff, it's hard to argue that the OL isn't the worst.

Really, in summary, of the guys that left, only a few will have any impact on college football at the D1 level over the next few years. The depth problem is not due to the guys who left, it is due to the guys who never signed in the first place.
 

jiggafini19

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Numbers were short to begin with, then Weis weeds out quite a few with the rigorous training back in spring 2005.

Help is on the way.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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I think that it was more the lack of recruiting than transfers.

What do all of you think?

It's a mix of both. The coaching change caused bunch of guys to reconsider...

I suspect Weis brought down the "my way or the highway" and chose the highway.

Fine with me, it sucks in the short term, but I don't want guys who are a cancer within the team...
 

jiggafini19

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Isn't Kadous back in school at ND?

He could be participating this spring. I recall BGIF posting about him....
 

BGIF

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Depth is impacted by injuries, academic suspensions, student conduct violations, homesickness, illness, and courseload (Remember Jabari Holloway not starting because he had a class schedule which conflicted with practice? ND rule miss practice, you don't start.). You've got to have bodies to have depth. In Davie's first year there were so many injuries they reduced contact in practice due to fear they wouldn't have enough players for games. At one point four of the top LBs were out injured. So you have to have bodies but to be good you have to have healthy bodies with size, speed and the ability to play Div I football with excellence.

All those people no longer play football at ND but they were not all transfers, nor did those that transferred all due so for football reasons, nor due to or under CW, nor were all of them Div I talent.

Isaiah Gardner DB - Was unhappy with his role under Willingham. Transfer was announced 9/11/04 - three months before most ND fans (and probably Gardner) even heard of Charlie Weis. Gardner starts at CB for Maryland. He sat out the '04 season at UMD per NCAA regulations. In '05 he played in 10 games, starting in 1 and making 15 tackles for the season. No TFLs, No Sacks, No Ints. He might have been a starter under Weis and Lewis.

Freddie Parish DB - Transferred to Div II, Stephen F. Austin. 8/8/05 Weis spoke warmly of Parish's playing ability when announcing his transfer. I read between the lines that Freddie's performance in the classroom didn't match his performance in a uniform. At ND student athletes have to strive for excellence in the classroom as well as on the field. In '05 Parish had 46 tackles, 4 TFL, 1 int. In '06 he leads the team in tackles. Freddie would be seeing PT at ND if eligible.

Labrose Hedgemon DB - Transfer to Div II, Jackson St (MS). I met his father when the son was a senior in HS. I was wearing an ND cap while shopping for a new car. Labrose Sr introduced himself by saying, "I'm Labrose Hedgemon, Senior, my son is going to play football for the Fighting Irish!" We sat together at a couple of ND Game Watches and talked about ND, football, and coaches. I also met Labrose's brother who plays Div II ball in Huntsville, AL. Labrose Jr, had a run-in with ND Student Affairs along with Stephenson and McConnell. It cost each of them a year of suspension - from the University not just the football team. Father and son were impressed with Willingham, the man. I suspect the son would not have gone to ND if Willingham had not been there. I believe that was a major factor although it wasn't stated plainly. Hedgemon's not an inner city kid. He's from an upscale suburban town of 60,000 with football facilities most Div II programs can only dream of. During the '05 season, his dad told me he was doing well academically at ND. He played Nickel Back until injured. Like Wolke the lack of future PT, a wealth of incoming talent at his position, and the desire to see the field led to a transfer. CW may be used for justification of the transfer but if the change of coaches was the determining factor he would have gone sooner not 15 months after his hire. Announced 3/22/06

David Wolke QB- At best a career backup that got passed by several more talented athletes. Sadly made the 40 year mistake, giving up an ND education so he could get on the playing field again. He's a backup QB at Div II, Western Kentucky. In '05 at ND he was 1-3 for 28 yds, 0 TD, 1 int with a QB Rating of 45.06. In '06 he has not played in the first three games against UGA, Eastern Kentucky, and Chattanooga.

Chris Vaughn WR - Did NOT transfer per se. He was "asked" to leave by ND Student Affairs for conduct violations, not by the coaching staff. If I remember correctly it was his second infraction and CW had stepped up for Vaughn the first time. Vaughn spoke highly of Weis and noted his problems were entirely of his own making. Would probably be the #3 WR for ND and would be the guy stretching the field. In '06 has 2 catches for 27 yds, 0 TD at Louisville.

Chauncey Incarnato Lineman - In early August of '05 told Weis, "I'm tired of football." Then transferred to Indiana where everybody is tired of football. He's the backup RT. Sporting New College Football '06 noted about IU, "... The line could be in trouble. Chauncey Incarnato, a Notre Dame transfer, is the most talented. But until he figures out things, burly Scott Anderson will man right tackle." Incarnato's listed at 6-5 283.

Brandon Nicolas Lineman - Quit in a huff. Departure from team announced on 8/18/05. There was talk of him possibly moving to OLine at ND due to lack of depth. Sat out '05. Now starts as a NT for CU. He would have been a serviceable backup but at 270 is too light for a starting NT.

Justin Hoskins RB - Didn't like his role and felt threatened by Aldridge and Prince. With Travis Thomas's move to LB ironically Justin would have gotten a lot of work at RB this past month. Transferred to Div I, Central Michigan where he will

Tregg Duerson DB - He left the progam and was on the Div II, Hampton (VA) '05 roster as a redshirt freshman DB. Not stats found. He wasn't mentioned with in DB writeup of the '06 Preseason Overview at the team website. Regardless, he was not Div I material. Sadly like J.W. Jordan, he got his scholarship due to a well connected dad. Playing in the footsteps of a famous legacy is tough. It's tougher when dad keeps putting his foot in his mouth or his fist ... well, nevermind. Unfortunate family problems were more a factor here than playing ability. I doubt any of us could have withstood the public spotlight this kid had to endure.

John Kadous Lineman - Did NOT transfer. Is still a student at ND paying his own way. Had severe health problem. Lost a great deal of weight. Last winter in an article (see LINK in Jiggs post above) he noted he might try out for football as a walk-on. Apparently, he didn't.

Abdel Banda LB - Did NOT transfer. Still a student. Chronic injuries ended his career. Announced 8/6/06

Joey Hiben TE - Did NOT transfer. Still a student. Despite high marks for his performance on the field, Hiben made a 40 year decision that his architecture career was more important in his life than football. He gave up the thrill of Saturdays and a $100,000+ scholarship to pay his own way to stay at ND. Architecture is a highly competitive major requiring an inordinate amout of time working on projects that take long hours of preparation. Architecture at ND also requires a year of study aboard which tends to be an impediment to making football practice.

... who cares if Wolke transfers to Indiana?

I do. I care if any of them do. Regardless of their athletic ability. They've wasted an opportunity of a lifetime.
 
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LOVEMYIRISH

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Great post BGIF. It definitly sheds a lot of light on the subject.

What I think we forget is not the "why" but the "what's the impact".

If older players flee the team now, I will be intrigued, but frankly I am more focused on the new guys coming in. If Weis' classes have high attrition, I will be concerned far more. These are players chosen and coached by him...
 

tommy

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could it have something to do with alot of the players playing out of position because of recruiting woes
 

tgolden

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Last I checked, Tregg Duerson was playing for Hampton. And Freddie Parish is leading SFA in tackles. just FYI.
 
I

irish4life99

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Depth is impacted by injuries, academic suspensions, student conduct violations, homesickness, illness, and courseload (Remember Jabari Holloway not starting because he had a class schedule which conflicted with practice? ND rule miss practice, you don't start.). You've got to have bodies to have depth. In Davie's first year there were so many injuries they reduced contact in practice due to fear they wouldn't have enough players for games. At one point four of the top LBs were out injured. So you have to have bodies but to be good you have to have healthy bodies with size, speed and the ability to play Div I football with excellence.

All those people no longer play football at ND but they were not all transfers, nor did those that transferred all due so for football reasons, nor due to or under CW, nor were all of them Div I talent.

Isaiah Gardner DB - Was unhappy with his role under Willingham. Transfer was announced 9/11/04 - three months before most ND fans (and probably Gardner) even heard of Charlie Weis. Gardner starts at CB for Maryland. He sat out the '04 season at UMD per NCAA regulations. In '05 he played in 10 games, starting in 1 and making 15 tackles for the season. No TFLs, No Sacks, No Ints. He might have been a starter under Weis and Lewis.

Freddie Parish DB - Transferred to Div II, Stephen F. Austin. 8/8/05 Weis spoke warmly of Parish's playing ability when announcing his transfer. I read between the lines that Freddie's performance in the classroom didn't match his performance in a uniform. At ND student athletes have to strive for excellence in the classroom as well as on the field. In '05 Parish had 46 tackles, 4 TFL, 1 int. In '06 he leads the team in tackles. Freddie would be seeing PT at ND if eligible.

Labrose Hedgemon DB - Transfer to Div II, Jackson St (MS). I met his father when the son was a senior in HS. I was wearing an ND cap while shopping for a new car. Labrose Sr introduced himself by saying, "I'm Labrose Hedgemon, Senior, my son is going to play football for the Fighting Irish!" We sat together at a couple of ND Game Watches and talked about ND, football, and coaches. I also met Labrose's brother who plays Div II ball in Huntsville, AL. Labrose Jr, had a run-in with ND Student Affairs along with Stephenson and McConnell. It cost each of them a year of suspension - from the University not just the football team. Father and son were impressed with Willingham, the man. I suspect the son would not have gone to ND if Willingham had not been there. I believe that was a major factor although it wasn't stated plainly. Hedgemon's not an inner city kid. He's from an upscale suburban town of 60,000 with football facilities most Div II programs can only dream of. During the '05 season, his dad told me he was doing well academically at ND. He played Nickel Back until injured. Like Wolke the lack of future PT, a wealth of incoming talent at his position, and the desire to see the field led to a transfer. CW may be used for justification of the transfer but if the change of coaches was the determining factor he would have gone sooner not 15 months after his hire. Announced 3/22/06

David Wolke QB- At best a career backup that got passed by several more talented athletes. Sadly made the 40 year mistake, giving up an ND education so he could get on the playing field again. He's a backup QB at Div II, Western Kentucky. In '05 at ND he was 1-3 for 28 yds, 0 TD, 1 int with a QB Rating of 45.06. In '06 he has not played in the first three games against UGA, Eastern Kentucky, and Chattanooga.

Chris Vaughn WR - Did NOT transfer per se. He was "asked" to leave by ND Student Affairs for conduct violations, not by the coaching staff. If I remember correctly it was his second infraction and CW had stepped up for Vaughn the first time. Vaughn spoke highly of Weis and noted his problems were entirely of his own making. Would probably be the #3 WR for ND and would be the guy stretching the field. In '06 has 2 catches for 27 yds, 0 TD at Louisville.

Chauncey Incarnato Lineman - In early August of '05 told Weis, "I'm tired of football." Then transferred to Indiana where everybody is tired of football. He's the backup RT. Sporting New College Football '06 noted about IU, "... The line could be in trouble. Chauncey Incarnato, a Notre Dame transfer, is the most talented. But until he figures out things, burly Scott Anderson will man right tackle." Incarnato's listed at 6-5 283.

Brandon Nicolas Lineman - Quit in a huff. Departure from team announced on 8/18/05. There was talk of him possibly moving to OLine at ND due to lack of depth. Sat out '05. Now starts as a NT for CU. He would have been a serviceable backup but at 270 is too light for a starting NT.

Justin Hoskins RB - Didn't like his role and felt threatened by Aldridge and Prince. With Travis Thomas's move to LB ironically Justin would have gotten a lot of work at RB this past month. Transferred to Div I, Central Michigan where he will

Tregg Duerson DB - He left the progam and was on the Div II, Hampton (VA) '05 roster as a redshirt freshman DB. Not stats found. He wasn't mentioned with in DB writeup of the '06 Preseason Overview at the team website. Regardless, he was not Div I material. Sadly like J.W. Jordan, he got his scholarship due to a well connected dad. Playing in the footsteps of a famous legacy is tough. It's tougher when dad keeps putting his foot in his mouth or his fist ... well, nevermind. Unfortunate family problems were more a factor here than playing ability. I doubt any of us could have withstood the public spotlight this kid had to endure.

John Kadous Lineman - Did NOT transfer. Is still a student at ND paying his own way. Had severe health problem. Lost a great deal of weight. Last winter in an article (see LINK in Jiggs post above) he noted he might try out for football as a walk-on. Apparently, he didn't.

Abdel Banda LB - Did NOT transfer. Still a student. Chronic injuries ended his career. Announced 8/6/06

Joey Hiben TE - Did NOT transfer. Still a student. Despite high marks for his performance on the field, Hiben made a 40 year decision that his architecture career was more important in his life than football. He gave up the thrill of Saturdays and a $100,000+ scholarship to pay his own way to stay at ND. Architecture is a highly competitive major requiring an inordinate amout of time working on projects that take long hours of preparation. Architecture at ND also requires a year of study aboard which tends to be an impediment to making football practice.



I do. I care if any of them do. Regardless of their athletic ability. They've wasted an opportunity of a lifetime.

Thanks for the GREAT read BGIF. As far as Wolke transfer, I was only speaking from a football point of view. I feel bad for him in 10 years when he looks back and understands what he gave up. Still, hard to judge unless you're in his shoes.
 
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