FSU/Miami ND/GT

[scooper]

Anybody watch that mess last night? You know what's funny? FSU will rise and get credit for beating Miami. Their defense will be praised. (As will Miami's) They will be called fast and athletic and that Miami win will be a gold star on their resume.

Meanwhile, the Irish win by a similar score over against a team that beat Miami last season. And ND actually moved the ball and looked competent at times. Yet you won't hear the praise about a gutsy performance or improved defense. Instead, we'll be treated to the "overrated" mantra. The media sees what they want to see.

The beauty of it is, that can be shut up with a nice win over Penn St. It doesn't have to be a blow out. (I doubt it would anyway) But controlling the game from start to finish would be nice.

Speaking of UM/FSU. How do two teams with so much recent success and a great Fl/deep south recruiting base end up with two quarterbacks that bad? Praise the defense all you want, but that's nothing new. They've always played D down there. But at least Miami and FSU used to have competent QB's.

 

[jiggafini19]

Lately, this rivalry has been quite a defensive struggle. Personally, I love both defenses a great deal.

Kyle Wright and Drew Weatherford are not Brady Quinn. Quinn is a Heisman candidate and his first outing did not justify that. Regardless of whose standards they might be, so far it is Hype 1, Quinn 0. But he won the game. That matters more than anything.

I'll say one thing about those two teams last night: the defensive speed is unmatched. Those two teams are two of the best defenses in America hands down. Top five, no doubt. The holes are there and gone in a split second.

Hate to be cliche here, but start taking this one game at a time and don't expect a zillion points out of the offense each week. Winning an NC is a marathon, not a race or a quest to break records in the media guide. And don't worry about what the media is saying. They're the same ones who hyped this team all summer with mag covers and #2 rankings.

 

[scooper]

I don't really worry much about what the media's saying. I tend to get most of my media reactions from ND boards, anyway.

I just found the juxtoposition of these two games interesting. GT's defensive speed was not chopped liver. They made Miami and Auburn look bad last year.

As for the QB's I know they are not Quinn. But they are also not up to middle of the pack ACC or even a good conference USA level QB. Yes, the defenses have something to do with it. But I guarantee each of those defenses will give up more than 10 or 13 points multiple teams this year.

 

[jiggafini19]

I'm sure they will, but we'll see how those drives start in each game as the year goes on.

Their schedules aren't very daunting either.

Both of those defenses were very good. Weatherford and Wright were dumping off more often than not.

 

[BGIF]

I don't really worry much about what the media's saying. I tend to get most of my media reactions from ND boards, anyway.

Actually most of the media articles I've read have been kinder to ND that than the ND posters here and elsewhere Saturday night and Sunday, "Most embarrassing win I've seen", "Coaches didn't have the team prepared", blah blah blah. Many in the media noted ND didn't play a directional school/Div 1aa chump while ND fans were downplaying GT as "#26-40" material at best.

I just found the juxtoposition of these two games interesting. GT's defensive speed was not chopped liver. They made Miami and Auburn look bad last year.

They didn't just make Miami and Auburn look bad last year; GT beat them. Again something else overlooked by the emotoposters so quick to point out the sky had fallen.

Quinn hit only 43% of his passes to start the game. The difference between that start and his "average" - 3 completions.

After the first 25 minutes Quinn hit 72% of his passes. He was slighly below last year's completion percentage and Weis noted 6 passes were dropped. The best pass play of the 1st half was called back on a miscall. A TD pass to Walker was called back. Quinn was long on the long balls but but did very well playing in the face of pressure. And he ran like a mobile QB.

 

[jiggafini19]

BGIF supports exactly what I've been saying for the last two days:

Those that raised the bar extra high and bought into all the hype were fickle and disappointed with a WIN, on the road, in the opener against a good defense and good defensive coordinator. Too many of you expected a blowout and when you didn't get one, you freaked out.

I'm glad we'll never find out the reactions of some had they LOST this game.

I was only surprised that both teams scored as little as they did, but I knew this game would be close and ND would not cover the spread.

 

[NDAlumSon]

Lately, this rivalry has been quite a defensive struggle. Personally, I love both defenses a great deal.

Kyle Wright and Drew Weatherford are not Brady Quinn. Quinn is a Heisman candidate and his first outing did not justify that. Regardless of whose standards they might be, so far it is Hype 1, Quinn 0. But he won the game. That matters more than anything.

I'll say one thing about those two teams last night: the defensive speed is unmatched. Those two teams are two of the best defenses in America hands down. Top five, no doubt. The holes are there and gone in a split second.

Hate to be cliche here, but start taking this one game at a time and don't expect a zillion points out of the offense each week. Winning an NC is a marathon, not a race or a quest to break records in the media guide. And don't worry about what the media is saying. They're the same ones who hyped this team all summer with mag covers and #2 rankings.

You're a very wise man.

 

[scooper]

I was happy to get the win. And I'm happy with the way the team toughed it out when they were down 10 early on. Sure, there are some problems to point to. But the severity of those problems is indeed skewed by preseason expectations.

I still think it's fair on a game-by-game basis to expect that they can win each week. But it is unrealistic to expect this team to cruise through this schedule without working up a swear.

 

[solo]

I think we might have seen more offense from FSU and Miami had it not been raining so hard. FSU and Miami are powerhouse programs. GT is a wannabe. I don't expect to get the same amount of credit for beating GT as Miami. Last year was last year and many think that GT win over Miami last year was an anomaly. It was raining hard and Miami was breaking in a new QB.

By the way, I saw good defensive football last night in the Miami-FSU game. I would trade DL's with either of those teams in a NY minute.

 

[jiggafini19]

Too many of you were thinking this game was going to be a cakewalk when if you looked a little deeper, you would have realized all along that this was going to be a dogfight. Like I said, the total points scored by both teams combined was the only surprise to me. Jon Tenuta can scheme too.

#2 Notre Dame walks onto your home field for a home opener and you're not jacked up? Tech isn't exactly a service academy or a I-AA.

And just because MSU barely beat Idaho and scUM wasn't all that great agaisnt Vandy and Purdue gave up 35 to Indiana State, don't think for a second that those teams won't be ready to play NOTRE DAME.

Emotional intangibles are pretty much garbage in every sport but football. They can sway the balance in an even contest. Where do you think ND ranks on PSU's schedule this season? Probably right up there with any Big Ten game they're going to play.

 

[scooper]

I think we might have seen more offense from FSU and Miami had it not been raining so hard.

This game was almost an exact replay of last year's game, only with a slightly different outcome. Two fast defenses. Two horrible offenses with two horrible QB's.

GT's win over Miami last year was no anomoly. Especially since they beat Auburn as well. If you think FSU's win was that much more impressive, you have bought into what ESPN is selling you.

FSU and Miami are powerhouse programs.

I think you misspelled "were." They can be again, and probably will be but they are not among the powerhouses right now. They are both among the top 15-25 programs. FSU, maybe top 10. But they are not in with the likes of OSU, Texas, USC, etc. right now.

 

[solo]

So you really want ND to get as much credit for beating GT as FSU gets for beating Miami at the Orange Bowl? I sure hope that you are joking.

GT is NOTHING program. They have 2 NC's separated by 73 years (1917 and 1990). They haven't finished a season ranked in the top 25 since 2001. Compare that to FSU and Miami. There is no comparison.

A win over Miami at Miami is clearly a bigger deal than a win over GT at GT. When Miami plays GT THIS YEAR (we aren't in last season anymore) this debate should be put to rest.

 

[scooper]

So you really want ND to get as much credit for beating GT as FSU gets for beating Miami at the Orange Bowl? I sure hope that you are joking.

GT is NOTHING program. They have 2 NC's separated by 73 years (1917 and 1990). They haven't finished a season ranked in the top 25 since 2001. Compare that to FSU and Miami. There is no comparison.

A win over Miami at Miami is clearly a bigger deal than a win over GT at GT. When Miami plays GT THIS YEAR (we aren't in last season anymore) this debate should be put to rest.

solo, I don't give a crap about who won what in 1920 something or 1990 something. This isn't about who has a better history or who is a "nothing" program. Looking at the products on the field in 2006, FSU's win was no more impressive than ours. FSU's defense looked better than ours. Our offense looked better. Miami will get their wins, but they can get a losses as well if their offense doesn't improve. Especially at QB and in the booth.

Relying on names doesn't cut in college football anymore. Willingham tried to recruit at ND by name. It didn't work. So don't tell me "this debate should be put to rest." I go by what I see on the field. Not the names on the uniform.

 

[lattedatte]

listen this is a stupid arguement to have becuase we really do not know how good either MIA or GT will be this year. polls prior to week 5 or 6 are about as reliable as predicting the weather two months in the future. Both GT and Mia. could be busts and neither will look like a good victory come November.

But since we have these unreliable polls out early, beating(by the nearly the same margin) an unranked team on the road could never be as impressive as beating a ranked team. That's just simple poll mathmatics.

 

[scooper]

listen this is a stupid arguement to have becuase we really do not know how good either MIA or GT will be this year. polls prior to week 5 or 6 are about as reliable as predicting the weather two months in the future. Both GT and Mia. could be busts and neither will look like a good victory come November.

But since we have these unreliable polls out early, beating(by the nearly the same margin) an unranked team on the road could never be as impressive as beating a ranked team. That's just simple poll mathmatics.

There's a lot more math involved than simple rankings. Especially considering that the unranked team beat the ranked team at the end of the prior season.

Other math includes what happened in the respective games. Sure, beating Miami is impressive. And the scores were identical. But FSU didn't outgain Miami by 100. Or hold a 10 minute advantage in time of possession. Those numbers don't include the hidden yards on kickoff returns.

I still say if you think FSU's win was more impressive than ours, you are buying ESPN's hype.

 

[ralphwaldoemerson]

Miami and FSU are such powerhouse programs that one lost 5 games last year and the other got beat at home by the same "nothing" Ga Tech squad we just beat in Atlanta.

 

[BGIF]

... Where do you think ND ranks on PSU's schedule this season? Probably right up there with any Big Ten game they're going to play.

JoePAs rantings have already made clear how important he thinks this game is. He didn't badmouth Akron.

 

[jiggafini19]

JoePAs rantings have already made clear how important he thinks this game is. He didn't badmouth Akron.

Bingo. Didn't say much about tOSU or scUM either. Or Iowa.

 

[solo]

solo, I don't give a crap about who won what in 1920 something or 1990 something. This isn't about who has a better history or who is a "nothing" program. Looking at the products on the field in 2006, FSU's win was no more impressive than ours. FSU's defense looked better than ours. Our offense looked better. Miami will get their wins, but they can get a losses as well if their offense doesn't improve. Especially at QB and in the booth.

Relying on names doesn't cut in college football anymore. Willingham tried to recruit at ND by name. It didn't work. So don't tell me "this debate should be put to rest." I go by what I see on the field. Not the names on the uniform.

OK...By the ONLY information we have this year regarding 2006, FSU's win over Miami is more impressive than ND's win over GT.

GT = Unranked
Miami = Top 20

All the coaches that voted agree. All the sportswriters agree. Everyone that has anything to do with college football agrees. Why should I believe you?

Not to mention, I have eyes myself and watched both games. Miami's defense looked more talented and better than GT's. Miami's offense looked equally incompetant as GT's. Advantage? Miami.

We don't have to agree. But if you want to base your decision on 2006 information and not the results of one game in 2005, the 2006 data points to FSU's victory over Miami as being more impressive. As the season plays on, we will know for sure. Until then, it's OK if we don't agree.

 

[ralphwaldoemerson]

You're honestly citing preseason rankings as proof that one win was better than another?

Hey, by that logic, Tennessee is the best team in the nation. By far.

 

[solo]

You're honestly citing preseason rankings as proof that one win was better than another?

Hey, by that logic, Tennessee is the best team in the nation. By far.

No, I am quoting the rankings after week 1 (that came out today). It's the only information we have. I could also quote the end of season rankings for last year (Miami was ranked, GT unranked). I could look at both teams records from last year.

My opponent in this debate wants to look at one data point, the game in which GT beat Miami last year.

 

[scooper]

OK...By the ONLY information we have this year regarding 2006, FSU's win over Miami is more impressive than ND's win over GT.

No, we also have the benefit of having seen the teams on the field. We also saw mostly the same players square off last year. Who won that game?

All the coaches that voted agree. All the sportswriters agree. Everyone that has anything to do with college football agrees. Why should I believe you?

"Notre Dame will start 0-6"

"Notre Dame will at best win 1 of the first five games"

What was Oklahoma ranked preseason last year? FSU? Did the same writers expect them to lose 5 games?

You don't have to believe me. But having seen both games, our win was every bit as impressive as FSU's. And I believe GT would have beaten Miami this weekend. Again.

Miami's offense looked equally incompetant as GT's. Advantage? Miami.

You had an argument until you got here.

We don't have to agree. But if you want to base your decision on 2006 information and not the results of one game in 2005, the 2006 data points to FSU's victory over Miami as being more impressive. As the season plays on, we will know for sure. Until then, it's OK if we don't agree.

To be honest, I think you missed my point in the first place, though probably by overstating Miami's team this season. You have an argument that FSU's win was more impressive. I think my argument that ours was more impressive is fair as well. The fact that this is even arguable proves my point. The wins were very similar. And we will be chastised for it and FSU will be praised.

 

[scooper]

My opponent in this debate wants to look at one data point, the game in which GT beat Miami last year.

And why not? The debate is Miami vs. GT. What better way to settle than having the two teams decide it on the field?

 

[lattedatte]

Scoop, I normally agree with you but I think you are off on this one as of this point. But as I said its silly to debate. But if you want to throw last year out there, GT getting crushed by UTAH is way worse than miami getting crushed by LSU..

 

[scooper]

Scoop, I normally agree with you but I think you are off on this one as of this point. But as I said its silly to debate. But if you want to throw last year out there, GT getting crushed by UTAH is way worse than miami getting crushed by LSU..

We can play A beat B beat C beat D beat E beat F....and so on. But GT beat Miami. The last game of the regular season, as well.

 

[solo]

And why not? The debate is Miami vs. GT. What better way to settle than having the two teams decide it on the field?

The thing is, these teams haven't played this year. This is 2006 and not 2005. But if you want to use data from 2005, why not use ALL the available data? Miami finished 6-2 in the ACC. GT finished 5-3. Miami finished the season 9-3. GT 7-5. Miami finished the season ranked, GT unranked. All that data points to Miami being the better team even if GT did manage to eek out a head to head win over the Canes in the rain. One data point suggests that you are correct, numerous data points suggest that I am correct.

Back to 2006. So you honestly think that GT would beat Miami head to head right now? I am certain that the pollsters wouldn't agree and neither would the bookies (Miami would clearly be favored). Personally, I don't think GT could score against Miami. They managed 10 points against our defense, and Miami's D is better than ours by a long shot. But you know, we will find out. They pkay each other on Oct 28.

But for now, based on all the 2005 and 2006 data combined, I would say that FSU's win over Miami is more impressive.

 

[scooper]

This is 2006 and not 2005.

A few replies back, you said "GT is NOTHING program. They have 2 NC's separated by 73 years (1917 and 1990). They haven't finished a season ranked in the top 25 since 2001. Compare that to FSU and Miami. There is no comparison."

Which is it? Are we using this year or past years? Which brings me to:

So you honestly think that GT would beat Miami head to head right now?

Based on what I saw this weekend? Yes. I do. By using 05, I was simply saying it's not that far fetched to believe so.

I am certain that the pollsters wouldn't agree and neither would the bookies

The same ones who had ND ranked in the 40's and Oklahoma in the top 10 coming into last season? The ones who said we would start 1-5 and 0-6? Or the ones who had Cal as a contender this year? I don't give a crap what they think.

But for now, based on all the 2005 and 2006 data combined, I would say that FSU's win over Miami is more impressive.

Fair enough. It's all a matter of opinion.

 

[solo]

Scooper...You fail to acknowledge that UPSETS are part of the game. Last year Michigan beat Penn State. Michigan finiched 7-5 and unranked. PSU finished 11-1 and top 5. But by your rationale, Michigan was the better team?

Last year, ND finsihed the season 9-3 and in the top 10. Mich State finsihed 5-6 and unranked. But MSU beat ND. So by your rationale, MSU is thebetter team?

Clemson finshed last year at 8-4 and in the top 25. Wake Forest finished the season at 4-7 and unranked. But because Wake beat Clemson, Wake is the better team?

You see what I'm saying? GT upset Miami last year. That doesn't make them a better team, not last year and not this year.

 

[jiggafini19]

Some of you need to suck it up and admit that you underestimated Georgia Tech...big time.

 

[ralphwaldoemerson]

What does our underestimating them have to do with anything? We're not on the team. We have nothing to do with the team's performance.