Marv81s and Irishtexan - Come to mama!

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Damn, I guess musta dreamt he dropped chemical weapons on the Kurds and Shites (his own and the Iranians. His invasion of Iran never happened either. Nor his invasion of Kuwait. Desert Storm and all the allies including Muslim nations was a myth, wasn't it?

He did that before we removed his ability to project power. From 1992 and beyond he did not have that power.

Funny I remember the world economy being destabilized but you're probably right that's not National Security if we went back to the horse and buggy era (even though we don't have the 100 million or so horses we'd need for commuting much less for industry).

The world economy was never destabilized...but the price of oil did rise.

Invading Kuwait was logical?

Yes, invading Kuwait was logical.

Saddam talked about his dispute with the US Ambassador April Glaspie. April Glaspie indicated that the US did "not have an opinion" AND that the USA did not intend “to start an economic war against Iraq”. That's tacit approval.

So, the US said that it would not take sides...and Saddam saw the ability to keep Kuwait fr himself . Kuwait was not seen as a legitimate nation by many in the Arab world owing to the method of its creation.

So, yeah...it was logical.

Not withdrawing from Kuwait when facing vastly superior forces was logical too in your illogical mind. Years later, attacking No Fly Zone Allied Aircraft with missiles was logical when he had no Air Force? Fighting a second war instead of suing for peace was logical, I suppose too?

He honestly thought with his million guys he could hold us off. In fact, the US did not expect to move as fast as it did. That invasion truly proved the weapon systems we had worked better than expected.

As for the No Fly zone...why is that illogical? It costs him very little to toss a few missiles at our pilots. And it let's him look strong that he is keeping the Americans at bay!!! (remember, he controllled the media...so what he said was "truth")

I'd like to see you riding a horse to work or walking.

Hey, I am ALL FOR the Carter Doctrine. No one messes with the world's oil supply. We will enforce that.

I never said I opposed Gulf 1. I just said that Saddam was logical in his actions...

Why would you even assume I did not support it?

His invasion of Kuwait gave him 20% of the world's oil supply. And he posed a threat to Saudi as well... And that is unacceptable.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Your #8 and #9 contradict each other. If the ideas of democracy are still correct then all we have to do is correct the management mistakes and we're home. You note the fault is entirely with mismanagement. You omit that we tried to foist not merely a regime change but a change in a nation's style of government, a change that clashes with it's fundamental tribal culture.

I think the key areas of mismanagement were:
1) Not sending as many troops as were requested by the military planners.
2) Dismantling the entire existing governmental infrastructure...hell, even Patton left some of the Nazis in place so the country did not devolve into chaos.
3) Not recognizing the insurgency early enough or even planning for it (for that matter)
4) (exactly your point above) Too quickly foisting a style of government on a group of people who are used to tribal politics/culture.

Democracy CAN work there, but it's not an overnight deal...

The Sunni insurgency can only be defanged once their leaders get no benefit from the pressure of the insurgency. Right now, they leverage it to their political benfit. However, in places where there are no Sunnis...there are basically no attacks (see the Kurdish area...its quiet)

 

[pappy]

I've been a member of irishenvy.com since the beginning, but rarely post (kind of like all of boda's other sites as well. I just read to stay informed on all things Irish. Marv81s and Irishtexan, I take my hat off to you gentleman. I had the privilege of being a member of Kappa Alpha Order at Indiana State with a Marine from Warsaw, Indiana. He was taken on March 23, 2003. Whether or not anyone supports the war or not, I feel EVERYONE should support our troops. I know I do.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Whether or not anyone supports the war or not, I feel EVERYONE should support our troops.

It's never good to confuse the troops with any war. The troops are just that. Men and women serving their country at the direction of the President and Congress. They lay their lives on the line in the pursuit of US policy. They don't do it for big bucks or glory. In the end, they believe in America and are ready at any given moment to defend her.

Over the past 20 years we have been engaged in many theaters: Bosnia, Kosov, Haiti, Somalia, Panama, Iraq, etc.

On the whole we have tried to make a positive difference...and on the whole American troops behave admirably. And in the RARE cases that they don't they get called out on that behavior.

That is why we and our troops ARE better than our enemies. And when you look around, they service has proven valuable to the world as a whole... You have to appreciate them...they earned it.