Opinions/Discussions on Guns

GO IRISH!!!

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Good points all!

We need to make the break in this conversation between criminality issues, and mental health issues. The both need to be addressed.

Gunmakers are the ones that can kill the black market in guns.

I understand your point and agree with the basis of your argument. However, it isn't going to be the Smith & Wessons and Rugers of the world that are the source of blackmarket guns.

When stiffer regulations are passed, for instance the "assault weapons" ban, the first thing that is going to happen is it will create or increase the criminal enterprise of smuggling firearms. I guarantee it won't be shiny store-bought out of the box guns. It will be a warehouse of cheap Nicaraguan made AK's brought across our Southern border and sold for thousands of dollars each. Eastern Europe and Southeast Asia are other sources of cheaply made firearms that have been trafficked all over the world.

The toothpaste is already out of the tube, so to speak. The legislative actions will only be a band aid. With our borders as open as they are, the guns wiill continue to flow to the streets. The demand is already there and the criminal element will seek to fill that need.
 

irishpat183

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All this talk about the "amount" of firearms is senseless.

Because we're assuming that we're going to be able to recover these weapons.

Just as a question, not being confrontational, what do we do about that? Criminials, citizens aren't going to just hand them over..
 

irishpat183

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I understand your point and agree with the basis of your argument. However, it isn't going to be the Smith & Wessons and Rugers of the world that are the source of blackmarket guns.

When stiffer regulations are passed, for instance the "assault weapons" ban, the first thing that is going to happen is it will create or increase the criminal enterprise of smuggling firearms. I guarantee it won't be shiny store-bought out of the box guns. It will be a warehouse of cheap Nicaraguan made AK's brought across our Southern border and sold for thousands of dollars each. Eastern Europe and Southeast Asia are other sources of cheaply made firearms that have been trafficked all over the world.

The toothpaste is already out of the tube, so to speak. The legislative actions will only be a band aid. With our borders as open as they are, the guns wiill continue to flow to the streets. The demand is already there and the criminal element will seek to fill that need.



And isn't this the very opposite of the argument the "pro-weed" crowd is using??

Those that want legialization of pot, are saying it's going to cut down on the criminal element.....but somehow it's going to decrease crime when it comes to gun control?
 

irishpat183

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I'm pretty sure they will try to scale it or some sort of exchange for legal guns.

Are you being realistic saying you will keep a gun that is outlawed and become a criminal?

How am I, a citizen of this country, not a felon or mental health issue, a criminal for posessing a firearm that when purchased, was legal?


Good luck with that. I'll gladly see them in court.


And for arguments sake, I doubt they're going to take away handguns...even though theyre the cause of most the gun killings in this country. Which makes the ban on AR's that much more ridiculous.
 

Downinthebend

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Do you think Newtown would have happened had his mother not had those guns in the house? Guns that he was allowed to "play with". I would have preferred he used a knife, some of those kids might still be alive today.

You know what a sad day is? I bet you don't. A sad day is when you rush to the school of your kids only to find out that they have been shot by someone with a semiautomatic assault rifle and that their bodies are going to remain on scene until the investigation allows the coroner to remove them. After which anywhere from 3 to 11 bullets will be pulled from their corpse so that you can bury them the week before Christmas. That, my friend, is a sad day.

Would that be any less of a sad day if they were knifed to death? Or killed by a semiautomatic pistol? Or run over by a car? Or blown up in a tower by planes? Or killed by drunk drivers? Or just in a car accident?
 

irishpat183

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I'm pretty sure they will try to scale it or some sort of exchange for legal guns.

Are you being realistic saying you will keep a gun that is outlawed and become a criminal?

And it will only be law abiding citizens that would turn in those guns anyway.....
 
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How am I, a citizen of this country, not a felon or mental health issue, a criminal for posessing a firearm that when purchased, was legal?


Good luck with that. I'll gladly see them in court.


And for arguments sake, I doubt they're going to take away handguns...even though theyre the cause of most the gun killings in this country. Which makes the ban on AR's that much more ridiculous.


Maybe I didn't write it right... Are you willing to keep a gun or gun accessory that is banned in a new law and become a criminal.

Lastly, I don't think they will get get handguns banned, even if they tried to do it.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I am merely rebutting your "sad day" statement. That is not a sad day. What happened the other day is a very sad day. This kid did not have the means to acquire anything more than a knife at that point, how can you assume that he could have found another gun in that small town? He tried to buy one but was turned away.



I live in Canada. I am pretty free. I am not sure what your definition of free or protected is. Mine doesn't involve having to stock my house with AR15s and several hand guns.




I am not upset, but people are assuming that I want all guns removed, I don't nor am I any authority on it. But clearly you aren't offering any help in where this should go but saying you'll keep your gun where you want it. So when your house gets broken in to and your gun is stolen and used in an offence like this and is added to the pile of illegal weapons on the street I hope you'll think back to this post and say "Gee I sure wish I was a more responsible gun owner!".




Don't fool yourself, it'll happen. And no I don't have to rewrite the constitution. I can make ammo prohibitively expensive. Have all the guns you want, but that ammo is going to cost you an arm and a leg and also require you to submit a background check.



The kid blew up for whatever reason. If those guns weren't in that house that day, those 20 kids would still be alive today. Not to say that somewhere down the road he wouldn't have found something else, but 20 kids would be celebrating Christmas with their parents next week.



And the simple volume of guns available in the US makes that extremely easy, doesn't it? "Would you like a hollow point with that AR15 sir?"



Again, no one is taking away any rights. You do not need a semiauto rifle with 100 round clip to protect yourself. And I am all for telling a citizen where and how your guns should be kept. Responsible owners do this already.

You are mistaken on a number of levels here. Have to do this one by one...

1) If there were no guns or knives, he would've found something else. He wanted to kill.

2) You live in Canada and let us live (especially on a state level) how we choose down here.

3) You haven't read everything I've posted on this. Wait wait wait...so now I have to work under the assumption that my house WILL be broken into and the intruders will be looking for my gun and then FIND it and THEN sell it on the streets? Quite a stretch there, Jasper. Give me a break.

4) No idea what you're talking about. Lawmakers would have to re-write the Constitution and even if they do restrict certain weapons, there is no legal authority for them to legislate the price of a bullet. Where on God's green earth are you coming up with this? Not gonna happen. Background check me all day, captain. I'm cleaner than a judge.

5) You still aren't following this logic. He didn't "blow up", grab guns, and go to the school. It was a designed, formulated plan. He destroyed the hardware on his PC before he left home. He knew the school was defenseless. And for the 74th time today, if there were no guns he would've found another tool for killing. A half hour in a Home Depot and $60.00 woud've gotten him the materials to kill more people if he so wished. It's like you think a psychotic murderer would just sit around all day, shrug his shoulders and say, "well, shoot. no guns, no plan for me to kill people today." You're living in a fantasy world.

6) What you "think" you should be able to tell citizens and what you define as "responsible" are irrelevant. 1) You're in Canada and we don't care. 2) Our government is set up to protect citizens from each other, not protecting citizens from themselves. Just as our beaurocrats don't tell us what to eat, when to poop, and when to shower, they don't tell us law-abiding citizens where to keep our guns. Most of us use common sense. Then there's the gangs...
 

Irish#1

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I still cannot accept the fact that guns are the problem here. Murders, criminals, killers are the problem here. The tools they choose to carry out their evil differ, but their goals remain the same.

Hypathetical: I pray to God this doesn't happen again, but what if another whack job goes Timothy McVeigh on a building, mall, school, stadium, etc?

Not one bullet fired. Just a truck with fertilizer and fuel. There is nothing politicians can legislate that would stop it.

Same thing with VA Tech: I pray it doesn't happen again, but it'd be verrrrry easy for a nut to walk into a crowded lecture hall of 500 and throw pipe bombs. Not one bullet needed.

No one is arguing that fact, but that's where the NRA fails to get the message. A gun is the easiest vehicle to use to accomplish this. Name me something else so readily accessible that is easy to carry and conceal and has the killing power? That's why the focus needs to be on gun regulation.
 

Downinthebend

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No one is arguing that fact, but that's where the NRA fails to get the message. A gun is the easiest vehicle to use to accomplish this. Name me something else so readily accessible that is easy to carry and conceal and has the killing power? That's why the focus needs to be on gun regulation.

Pray tell me why the criminals would follow those laws?
 

Opus

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And I'm sorry but history has shown that to control the masses you ban guns. Whether you believe that the average citizen could rise up and mount an effective revolution or not. The fact of the matter remains that the 2nd amendment was written because they were afraid of a tyrannical government.
And your right I do not feel guns should be banned. It starts with 1 type is banned then it will become well you don't need this kind either. Pretty soon the only right that we have that gives the rest teeth is gone.

+1,000

It's already starting. In 1994 Senator Dianne Feinstein introduced the assault weapons ban that became law. That ban included 18 specific models of semiautomatic weapons. She has already stated that she plans to introduce an "updated" assault weapons ban. This ban will have 100
specifically named firearms including "weapons that can accept detachable magazines as well as certain semiautomatic rifles, handguns and shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds."

So it's not just "assault rifles" that they are after.
 
G

Grahambo

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Oh come on! this is good times. A forum in which I can read other view points from my own??

Hell, down here in Texas everyone is pro-gun. It's nice to have a discussion with people of other ways of thinking.

I had a thought but realized it sounded more critical then helpful. Felt it best to leave it be.

As the Winthrop coach has said, I'm not smart enough to deal with this type of problem.

I'll give it a try:

Things such as a longer waiting period for acquiring a weapon, an assault rifle ban, and an absolute easier way to have access to a mental health professional. I think health care is a natural born right, especially for mental health. Its something that should be promoted and encouraged more but tts so difficult to find some good health care these days, its sad; tragic really.

I also like the direction POTUS is going with taking a look at the entertainment industry that produce such violence.
 

irishpat183

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61424_482369725140051_1228151352_n_zps32bb60c3.jpg
[/IMG]


For all the guns on the street......
 

Downinthebend

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Amazing how 270 million guns can make percentages look good to the uninformed.

I'm sorry did you have a point to make? If you have other statistics you'd like to talk about it , bring it out and let us watch the chart wars. But just saying "theres alot of guns" doesn't do much.
 

ND NYC

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Spurred by Conn. shooting, residents turn in 1,137 firearms in Camden buyback | NJ.com

1137 guns turned in in 2 days in camden NJ


i know all you gun owners on here take good care of your weapons and do the right thing with your guns. im not worried about you guys at all. you are not the problem.

BUT

i really think the whole "losing our rights" stuff is getting a bit out of control. has owning a weapon that causes massive loss of life in short periods of time is now an essential right of US citizens? Give me a break guys. some say arm the teachers. i dont want one of my kids going to school in an armed fortress. thats not the world i want them to grow up in. Whats next hand grenades and RPGS? like i said im all for a pistol in the home, and for the single round shotgun to go hunting with. no one is looking to take those guns away from you guys, not even the biggest liberals out there. it is not a slippery slope. we all just need to use common sense and judgement here.

i heard no clarion call of any stripping away of rights and liberties by any gun owners when they did the Patriot Act. No problem there, it's in the name of safety and security. but try and take take away a semi-automatic rifle with 100 round clips? No way. Sorry, but if giving up assault weapons and semiautomatic weapons means it's harder for people to gun down 20 six year olds and 6 teeachers at school in a coupple minutes, then people just need to find a new hobby other than playing with their guns.

of course, this psychopath would more than likely have killed someone on december 14th if he just had a rifle or a pistol but he would NOT have been able to slaughter 20 kids and 6 teachers in minutes. so fight all you want to keep these killing machines in circulation and hope and pray that someone you know is never on the wrong end of one the bulllets coming out of it.
 
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irishpat183

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Amazing how 270 million guns can make percentages look good to the uninformed.

They are what they are. They look great, in fact.

Considering how many guys are on the streets......



Glad you followed up with a stellar comment, though. Good argument.
 

phork

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You are mistaken on a number of levels here. Have to do this one by one...

1) If there were no guns or knives, he would've found something else. He wanted to kill.

There was nothing available at that moment for him to kill 26 people.

2) You live in Canada and let us live (especially on a state level) how we choose down here.

I am not talking from a nationality perspective. I am speaking, or trying, on a human level. Clearly you don't comprehend.

3) You haven't read everything I've posted on this. Wait wait wait...so now I have to work under the assumption that my house WILL be broken into and the intruders will be looking for my gun and then FIND it and THEN sell it on the streets? Quite a stretch there, Jasper. Give me a break.

You said you'll put it wherever you like, which to me means that its in your night stand drawer. I don't care where you put it. A safe is a good place to start.

4) No idea what you're talking about. Lawmakers would have to re-write the Constitution and even if they do restrict certain weapons, there is no legal authority for them to legislate the price of a bullet. Where on God's green earth are you coming up with this? Not gonna happen. Background check me all day, captain. I'm cleaner than a judge.

Bullets aren't covered under the right to bear arms or constitution.

5) You still aren't following this logic. He didn't "blow up", grab guns, and go to the school. It was a designed, formulated plan. He destroyed the hardware on his PC before he left home. He knew the school was defenseless. And for the 74th time today, if there were no guns he would've found another tool for killing. A half hour in a Home Depot and $60.00 woud've gotten him the materials to kill more people if he so wished. It's like you think a psychotic murderer would just sit around all day, shrug his shoulders and say, "well, shoot. no guns, no plan for me to kill people today." You're living in a fantasy world.

Yes it was planned. He planned on using his mothers guns. He shot her in the face 4 times to get them. Had they been in a safe with trigger locks he had no other recourse, nor $60 to build a bomb.


6) What you "think" you should be able to tell citizens and what you define as "responsible" are irrelevant. 1) You're in Canada and we don't care. 2) Our government is set up to protect citizens from each other, not protecting citizens from themselves. Just as our beaurocrats don't tell us what to eat, when to poop, and when to shower, they don't tell us law-abiding citizens where to keep our guns. Most of us use common sense. Then there's the gangs...

This is the reason why the US is generally despised worldwide. You sound like a Michigan fan. Your government is not doing a very good job of protecting citizens from each other.

+1,000

It's already starting. In 1994 Senator Dianne Feinstein introduced the assault weapons ban that became law. That ban included 18 specific models of semiautomatic weapons. She has already stated that she plans to introduce an "updated" assault weapons ban. This ban will have 100
specifically named firearms including "weapons that can accept detachable magazines as well as certain semiautomatic rifles, handguns and shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds."

So it's not just "assault rifles" that they are after.

And I am not for such a broad stroke myself. But there is no need for 100 round clips for public use.

61424_482369725140051_1228151352_n_zps32bb60c3.jpg
[/IMG]


For all the guns on the street......

1% == 3 Million. Just sayin.
 

Downinthebend

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There was nothing available at that moment for him to kill 26 people.



I am not talking from a nationality perspective. I am speaking, or trying, on a human level. Clearly you don't comprehend.
He Ad hominum'd you, just disregard it imo


You said you'll put it wherever you like, which to me means that its in your night stand drawer. I don't care where you put it. A safe is a good place to start.



Bullets aren't covered under the right to bear arms or constitution.
Bullets aren't covered under the right to bear arms in the same manner that freedom of expression on the internet isn't covered under freedom of expression. Do you think the founders (I'm assuming you care, if you don't care much about the constitution lets not have this discussion) advocated rifles to fight off oppressive governments but no bullets or powder? Isn't that just absurd?


Yes it was planned. He planned on using his mothers guns. He shot her in the face 4 times to get them. Had they been in a safe with trigger locks he had no other recourse, nor $60 to build a bomb.

You don't think he could acquire another tool to accomplish his actions? He is pretty much being called "smart" by alot of people I seriously doubt that he would be incapable.



This is the reason why the US is generally despised worldwide. You sound like a Michigan fan. Your government is not doing a very good job of protecting citizens from each other.

I'll take violence in the US over violence in the UK anyday, at least I have a possibility to defend myself from criminals.

And I am not for such a broad stroke myself. But there is no need for 100 round clips for public use.

Is there a need for 100 round clips for police use? If so why? And why would that need not expand to public (private) use? And keep in mind it doesn't take much to make a magazine that will fit into a gun, a magazine is just a box with a spring in it,

1% == 3 Million.

Just sayin.

Because I don't know how to separate quotes, I'll comment in bold in your quote.
 
G

Grahambo

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Because I don't know how to separate quotes, I'll comment in bold in your quote.

In regards to your last bolded part, police have stuff like that because the criminals have stuff like that. Started with the North Hollywood shootout.
 

Downinthebend

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In regards to your last bolded part, police have stuff like that because the criminals have stuff like that. Started with the North Hollywood shootout.

If criminals have stuff like that and police need it for defense against them, why wouldn't that "need" extend to me?

Even beyond that, I don't need a nice computer, why isn't it illegal? Its a waste (not needed) of plastic and metal. The burden of legislation is on the criminalizing not the "need" of something.
 

Irish Houstonian

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The CT shooter just taped his spare clips to the rifle. So making them shorter wouldn't have stopped him from shooting that much, assuming he had more tape.
 
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