When Is An Offer Not Really An Offer

irishunclebill

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Well, in May of 2008, apparently it is when you are 110 of 111 (yes, that is not a typo) High School Juniors who currently hold a scholarship offer from the University of Florida. In what is increasingly becoming a mockery of the CFB recruiting process, the Meyer crowd has now made 111 scholarship offers, and accepted only 1 verbal commit in return. The 111 number is actually higher because it does not include offers to recruits who have expressed no interest at all in Florida, but since 111 is ridiculous enough, I’ll use that number for the purpose of this post.

Consider the following facts. Just 4 months ago, one school, Florida, has just won a National Championship with a blow out victory over the #1 team in the country before an enormous national TV audience. A week earlier, another school, Notre Dame, has just suffered a blow out loss which included one of the most demoralizing second half performances in a BCS bowl game in recent history, also before an enormous national TV audience. Now fast forward to the second week in May, and let's look at the respective school's recruiting progress for the Class of 2008. The national champion has made 111 scholarship offers, but only 1 recruit has been wise enough to commit. The Sugar Bowl losers have made only 62 offers, yet 12 of those 62 recruits have made verbal commits to the Irish.

You do not have to have an advanced degree in statistical analysis to realize that given these 2 separate scenarios, and all other things being equal, the odds of only 1 out of 111 Gator offers being accepted while 12 out of 62 Irish offers are being accepted, are astronomical, in the billions at the least. Of course, all things are not equal in this case, as Charlie Weis, as an ethical coach and man, has honored his commitment to these high school juniors, while Urban Meyer, whose lack of ethics can no longer be questioned, uses scholarship offers like they were pieces of candy being thrown to kids at a parade.

It continues to amaze me that no one in the national sports media, or at the very least, the national CFB recruiting media, has not called the Cockwad out for making a sham of the recruiting process. There is a certain very strong smell (stench) beginning to emanate from the Swamp, and it's not just coming from one of those famous bar-b-q's anymore.


A little post-script- At least 35 of the 62 recruits that ND has offered have also received offers from Florida. Expect that number to grow as Meyer will eventually no doubt specifically target who he considers to be the best recruits who have verbally committed to other schools. As it is, that number is most likely higher because quite a few of the ND verbal commits are reported to have received a Florida offer already, but only Lane Clelland among the Irish 12 is specifically listed as having a Florida offer. Existing verbal commits notwithstanding, I would guess that 8 of the current 12 Irish commits will end up with, or already have a Florida offer.
 
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kjones

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Wow, what a Cockwad. Words fail me... great post about the world's greatest douche.
 
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rontdtarchala

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Can you even begin to imagine the fall out if it was ND my God we would be on the front page as the most dispicable university in america and CW would be the satan
 

kjones

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Hey KJones, that's 500 posts! Congrats, dork!

lol. yeah, you can tell i don't count my posts at all. You guys play this board like it's Miles Bornes or something :).

Anyway, woohoo! :rock: :guitar: etc. I am the 1337ster poster-er...inator.
 
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IrishCalves

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What you say about Florida makes all the sense in the world. I back you up on that much 100%. However, lets try to put our bias aside for a moment, and look at Weis with a little more objectivity.

This is a quote from he Washington Post, printed on signing day. Here's the link for it too: When the Word Isn't Quite Final

"I thought I'd make my decision and that would be it," said Arrelious Benn, who announced his commitment to Illinois on ESPNU on Nov. 9 before graduating from Dunbar in December and enrolling in Champaign last month. After the commitment? "That's when it got worse. These are grown men. Why can't they live with the decision I made?"

Throughout his junior school year, Benn said he had considered Notre Dame his top choice, but when he felt as though the Fighting Irish coaching staff was putting too much pressure on him to commit he stopped considering the school. Once Benn orally committed to Illinois, Notre Dame assistant Peter Vaas continued to pepper Benn with text messages and voice mails, some of which Benn provided to The Post:

"FYI, ILL is telling Robert Hughes that they will build their offense around him? Didn't they tell you that?

Coach Vaas," Vaas wrote Benn on Dec. 17.

Earlier that month, Vaas left this voice message on Benn's phone: "You don't want to do anything except bury your head in the sand. . . . I guess you're not tough enough to compete at the big level."

Now, where I come from, that sounds like negative recruiting. And also where I come from, thats trying to poach a committed kid.

It is possible that Vaas could have been a "renegade recruiter" within Weis's staff, but that is pretty unlikely. Even at that, you have to make Weis responsible for hiring a guy like Vaas, and not keeping him in check, and/or making it clear that those kinds of tactics aren't acceptable.

If you want to interpret this kind of news in a different light, you'd put two and two together and say that Weis does the same thing Urban does - perhaps not on the same scale, but poaching is poaching. But that much is up for you to decide, since we may never hear the whole story of Weis's involvement in the Benn case.

What can't be denied is that Notre Dame has had their own share of unethical recruiting, and its not a distant relic of the past. We can only hope those days are beyond us, and that we're getting the results from this class the right way.
 

johnnd05

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If you want to interpret this kind of news in a different light, you'd put two and two together and say that Weis does the same thing Urban does - perhaps not on the same scale, but poaching is poaching. But that much is up for you to decide, since we may never hear the whole story of Weis's involvement in the Benn case.

I think you raise some good points, but it's clearly wrong to say that this is an instance of Weis doing "the same thing Urban does". First off, IUB's post was mostly about extending "offers that aren't really offers", and we have no reason to think that CW has ever done that. And secondly, while CW clearly has NOT been unwilling to "poach" recruits (Brandon Walker, Brian Smith), one thing he apparently did in doing this that at least SOME other coaches (Butch Davis) did NOT do is demand that the recruits be honest with the schools they had committed to, right from the start. I don't know if Meyer does this when he goes after other teams' recruits (the Trattou situation certainly wasn't much of a secret, though obviously there were many other cases), but it seems to me to make all the difference in the world.

That said, those messages that Vaas left for Benn were straightforwardly inappropriate, and you're right to bring them up as an instance of ND having egg on our face as well.
 

CharlotteND

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Of course Vaas was is no longer employed by ND. I would bet that the Benn situation was a contributing factor, albeit not the primary reason for that.
 

irishunclebill

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What you say about Florida makes all the sense in the world. I back you up on that much 100%. However, lets try to put our bias aside for a moment, and look at Weis with a little more objectivity.

This is a quote from he Washington Post, printed on signing day. Here's the link for it too: When the Word Isn't Quite Final



Now, where I come from, that sounds like negative recruiting. And also where I come from, thats trying to poach a committed kid.

It is possible that Vaas could have been a "renegade recruiter" within Weis's staff, but that is pretty unlikely. Even at that, you have to make Weis responsible for hiring a guy like Vaas, and not keeping him in check, and/or making it clear that those kinds of tactics aren't acceptable.

If you want to interpret this kind of news in a different light, you'd put two and two together and say that Weis does the same thing Urban does - perhaps not on the same scale, but poaching is poaching. But that much is up for you to decide, since we may never hear the whole story of Weis's involvement in the Benn case.

What can't be denied is that Notre Dame has had their own share of unethical recruiting, and its not a distant relic of the past. We can only hope those days are beyond us, and that we're getting the results from this class the right way.


I’m talking about oranges, and you give me apples.:)

What Meyer is doing right now with the 111 offers as I am sure you know is not “negative recruiting” as you call it, it is what I would call “sham recruiting”, which IMO is much worse. Meyer will be doing plenty of “negative recruiting” as time goes on this year. In fact, I predict that he will be doing it even more so than last year, as he attempts to cherry pick his 18 recruits for this year. Personally, I do not have as much of a problem with negative recruiting, or poaching, (as long as the recruit has indicated that his commitment is not “solid”, which in my mind means he has made no commitment at all) for two reasons. One, it is inevitable in the high stakes world of CFB, and two, poaching is a two way street. No one forced Trattou to take the trip to Gainesville the last weekend in January, it was his choice, and by doing so he indicated to Meyer that “he was looking”. Meyer took advantage of that but only because Trattou allowed him to. I do agree that ethically if a recruit indicates to a staff that he is solid in his decision to go to a certain school, then that staff should no longer bother that recruit. Every indication is that Meyer and his staff never abide by that ethical standard, but as you pointed out ND may have done the same thing in the Benn situation.

In slight defense of the ND staff regarding the Benn situation, I do have to point out two items. Vaas is no longer an ND coach, is it because he was overzealous in his pursuit of Benn? No one except CW knows that for sure, but if Vaas was indeed fired over Benn, then that would indicate that CW will not put up with such tactics. The second point is that there is a lot of unsubstantiated anecdotal information that indicates that even after Benn committed to Illinois, that he was still fishing for a “better offer”. CW seemed to imply in his NSD presser that he believed that Benn was still an open target until he actually enrolled at Illinois for the spring semester. He may have been doing that in defense of Vaas and the ND program, or it may be that based on ND’s own experience with Benn’s silent commit, that he believed Benn was still looking. We will probably never find out for sure.

In any case, I agree with your basic point that we as ND fans would be both foolish and hypocritical to believe that even now, ND does not engage in any type of poaching or negative recruiting. However, I do not want to lose sight of the bigger issue posed in this thread, which is not the negative recruiting aspect, but the unprecedented charade that Meyer and his staff are making of the entire recruiting offer process. If he is successful in what he is attempting to do this year, it may forever change the landscape of CFB recruiting in a detrimental way because of what is basically callous treatment of the High School recruit. Urban’s 2008 offer "sham" has the potential IMO to make “negative recruiting” seem like a relatively minor issue.
 
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IrishCalves

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No doubt, I understand the thread wasn't focusing on the negative recruiting, but rather what it means to be "offered".

So, what would be the difference between Florida and Ole Miss? Is it the dictating to kids that can or can't commit at a certain time? Because Ole Miss has been notorious about extending close to (if not upwards of) 200 offers.
 

irishunclebill

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The difference is clearly that Ole Miss is willing (and also extremely happy in most cases) to accept commits from the recruits that they have offered, as evidenced by the fact that they already have 8 verbal commits.
 

irishunclebill

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Just to further defend Ole Miss, of those 8 recruits, not a single one is on the current Rivals or Scout 100 lists. 1 is on the Rivals 250, and 2 are listed as 3 star recruits by Scout, the other 6 are all presently 1 star. The point is even Ole Miss with all those offers is not attempting to cherry pick who commits. If you have an Ole Miss offer and you want to commit, then Ole Miss is allowing you to commit.
 
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mwinely

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The major question is what does the school do once the offer is extended and accepted. Does the school honor their committment of the offer when a kid wants to commit - or does the school say "wait - I cannot accept your committment until I find out who else better accepts". Ole Miss very well may have to offer 200 to get 18 to say yes. However, there is no question that Florida does not need to. By stringing a kid along, he watches the other teams he is considering fill up only to find out in the end that he doesn't make Florida's cut. That for sure Notre Dame will not do which is a pivotal difference. I am 100% confident that everyone of the offers on the table - if they were to accept today, CW would accept them. Once he gets the committments - he will have to start letting the kids know they have no room left. That is honoring committments on a first come first serve basis - not a pick and choose basis. Greatly different scenarios - what Florida is doing can profoundly affect the ability of a recruit from choosing where he goes to school in a negative way. The greatest hope here is the high school coaches and the athletic directors. It won't take too many of their kids seeing their offers washed away before they start telling the truth about Mr. Meyer.
 
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