The BIG Recruiting lie told here.

[ITellTheTruth]

Everyone who starts to make excuses for Charlie always talks about the lousy recruiting classes Ty left him. Now, I don't follow recruiting all that much because I have always thought it was a bit of voodoo science to evaluate kids that young as potential GREAT football players. I have always preferred to judge a team on actual wins and losses as opposed to highly touted recruiting classes - call me crazy.

However, since I heard so much about it and since it is ALWAYS used as an excuse I just did some research.

Here is what I found. Since 2002, Notre Dame has recruited VERY WELL. That's right. I was shocked too. How can it be you say, that ruins all of our excuses. The problem is that it is the truth.

Scout.com gives the following ranking for Notre Dame's recruiting classes:

2002: 13th in the nation
2003: 5th in the nation
2004: 30th in the nation
2005: 27th in the nation
2006: 5th in the nation
2007: 11th in the nation

Now think about that. Should a team with that much talent be losing to Navy at home who had unrankable recruting classes. Should they be getting blown out by Michigan and USC?

2004 & 2005's classes weren't great for sure, but they weren't 1-8 horrible. Ty's 2002 and 2003 classes closely mirror Charlie's 2006 & 2007.

Here are some teams who had worse recruiting classes than Notre Dame for 2004 & 2005:

Georgia Tech
Missouri
Wisconsin
Mississippi
Boston College
South Florida
Illinois
Rutgers
Pittsburgh
Kansas State
Colorado
West Virginia
Louisville
Mississippi State

Just to name a few. Now, knowing this - can you still blame recruiting? Because if you can, you can't see the forest through the trees my friends.

 

[GoIrish41]

Thanks ITellTheTruth. We could have read this info on any one of about 9 other threads, though. I think you may be trying too hard to prove your point about Weis as a bad coach. You are bound to get some folks reading your posts this week -- probably even the rest of the season -- but he isn't going anywhere, so what is the point other than to flame?

 

[johnnd05]

I don't think anyone is blaming recruiting any more. It should be noted, though, that many of the players from those 2004 and 2005 classes have left the team; they likely wouldn't be ranked in the top 50 or even the top 100 based on what's left from them.

But you're right: recruiting, inexperience, the talent gap, etc. are NOT acceptable excuses for the way this team has played.

 

[JeremyND07]

Scout.com gives the following ranking for Notre Dame's recruiting classes:

2002: 13th in the nation
2003: 5th in the nation
2004: 30th in the nation
2005: 27th in the nation
2006: 5th in the nation
2007: 11th in the nation

Now think about that. Should a team with that much talent be losing to Navy at home who had unrankable recruting classes. Should they be getting blown out by Michigan and USC?

2004 & 2005's classes weren't great for sure, but they weren't 1-8 horrible. Ty's 2002 and 2003 classes closely mirror Charlie's 2006 & 2007.

Here are some teams who had worse recruiting classes than Notre Dame for 2004 & 2005:
.

I actually agree with you on most your points...recruiting and numbers were BAD in 2004 & 2005 but not 1-8 bad.

The big thing that seperates Charlie from Ty is that 3rd year of recruiting... 2004 30th in the nation...2008 currently 1st in the nation at worst top 5 if we keep this group!!! CW is a GREAT recruiter!!! Molding talent is another issue....

Charlie will be here for another 2 years no matter what!

 

[WeisWeisBaby]

I agree with GoIrish41, I don't care about excuses and I don't care about the results of this season. There are way too many factors that play into it, and I for one am sticking by Charlie. We have had way too many coaching changes in the past decade to resemble any sort of consistency, and I have so much faith in what Charlie brings to this program. Sure, I don't agree with every call he makes as my new favorite expression on 4th downs is "Charlie, YOU'RE MAKING ME NERVOUS". However, I have so much love for this program and I am SOOOOOO happy we lost to NAVY.

Face it, now we get to start fresh next year. Now we get to play all these teams that are giving us crap and do what New England is doing now, force it down their throat and score as many points as you can to make them forget what happened a year ago. I'm happy we lost to Navy so that we can beat them another 43 straight times. Charlie is not going to forget that the poodle challeneged plays and went for it on fourth down, and he is not going to forget that Michigan and MSU spanked us. He will, however, get his recruiting classes built up and get that team ready to provide a full throttle, go for it on fourth downs, score touchdowns until you are up by 50, kind of offense that demolish these teams.

And if I am wrong, and if he doesn't do this, then what is the worst that happens? We get a new coach, start all over, and try to wonder if Notre Dame will ever win a bowl game again?

Come on, this is our team fellas, this IS our coach, and the future looks bright.

 

[GoshenGipper]

I've found Rivals to be more accurate than Scout, but what you're missing is who's really contributing from the first three classes you listed. Most of the 5th years that are still here are playing very poorly, and the few highly ranked guys in the last two Willingham classes have been busts. Plus most of them have already left ND for one reason or another. Are you really that arrogant that you think you can go look up a few stats from one site and proclaim that you know just as much about recruiting and current rosters as people that have been following it closely for years? There's a reason teams like USC, LSU, Texas, and Ohio State have been dominating lately. Go look at their recruiting classes. I don't care how smart you think you are you're wong on this subject. I'm not saying it's all Ty's fault because it's not, but I still place a lot of the blame for the season as a whole on him. Yes the coaching staff deserves some blame as well as some of the players because they should be beating teams like Navy, but I know many people saw several of these poundings comming because of the sheer lack of experienced talent in the upperclasses.

 

[GoshenGipper]

27th and 30th are no where close to very well. ND should never be that low, EVER!

Here's a nice visual reference to look at in reguard to recruiting comparison. Jonas Gray isn't on it but you get the idea.

 

[JeremyND07]

GREAT chart and wow is all I have to say!!!! In (3) years Ty had (1) 5star recruit and (10) 4star recruits...compared to Weis in (3) years...(5) 5star recruits and (36) 4star recruits!!!! Just a small difference.

(100th post woot woot)

 

[ITellTheTruth]

I've found Rivals to be more accurate than Scout, but what you're missing is who's really contributing from the first three classes you listed. Most of the 5th years that are still here are playing very poorly, and the few highly ranked guys in the last two Willingham classes have been busts. Plus most of them have already left ND for one reason or another. Are you really that arrogant that you think you can go look up a few stats from one site and proclaim that you know just as much about recruiting and current rosters as people that have been following it closely for years?

Listen pal, you can't have it both ways. Either the recruiting rank matters or it doesn't. It certainly isn't Ty's fault if his highly regarded recruits were busts - they were after all highly regarded recruits and that seems to be the only thing you care about. That is my entire point. Recruiting rankings are voodoo science at best. Yet, you hold them sacred when the kids are highly ranked, but when it doesn't translate onto the field you look for other excuses to obscure the point that perhaps rankings aren't the end all be all. As illustrated by the many teams I listed who had worse recruiting classes than Notre Dame every year from 2002-2007, but still managed to win.

I am far from arrogant, I just know that to blame Ty's recruiting for a 1-8 Weis season is GARBAGE. I won't allow that argument anymore because it is completely BOGUS.

 

[WeisWeisBaby]

I Tell the Truth, I reall think the point you are missing is what was explained a couple posts before, in that this is a voodoo science because these kids are so young and you never know.

HOWEVER, when your recruit almost 5 times 5 star recuits, and 5 times 4 star recruits than the coach before... you are pretty much supplying you team with a much more talented group of players. Ty's classes weren't filled with that, so when the ones that don't pan out suck, you don't have the ones that do pan out to really make a difference. With these classes, these kids are ranked high for a reason and for the most part they do live up to great potential.

I think you proved our point without realizing it, I would take a team full of higher star rankings any day due to the fact that most of them will be good, but it is not an exact science. Ty's classes just weren't filled with these type of players, and very rarely is it that you see a 2 star recruit become phenomenal than a 4 start recruit getting cut.

Next year we'll see who's laughing.

 

[GoshenGipper]

Listen pal, you can't have it both ways. Either the recruiting rank matters or it doesn't. It certainly isn't Ty's fault if his highly regarded recruits were busts - they were after all highly regarded recruits and that seems to be the only thing you care about. That is my entire point. Recruiting rankings are voodoo science at best. Yet, you hold them sacred when the kids are highly ranked, but when it doesn't translate onto the field you look for other excuses to obscure the point that perhaps rankings aren't the end all be all. As illustrated by the many teams I listed who had worse recruiting classes than Notre Dame every year from 2002-2007, but still managed to win.

I am far from arrogant, I just know that to blame Ty's recruiting for a 1-8 Weis season is GARBAGE. I won't allow that argument anymore because it is completely BOGUS.

When have I ever said it doesn't matter? How is it not Ty's fault, wasn't he their coach, wasn't he the final say on the talent evaulations? Why is it the the few very good recruits he brought in stuggled to be consistant or even see the field untill Weis got there? Recruiting ranking are not an exact science and I don't know a single person that has ever said so, but most of the time it does do a good job of projecting future production. Since you don't follow it I'm sure you don't realise how they judge their classes. ESPNU, Rivals and Scout all judge on similar things, while Rise Mag, and Tom Lemming/CSTV do their rankings differently and no matter how you want to stack it everyone has ND at #1 this year, and they have been greatly imporved under Weis.

Another thing, did I put all of the blame on Ty? No, I didn't and I find it curious how you think you aren't going to allow somehting on this or any other board. You're a very new poster with a rep of being an arrogant know it all pesemist that just wants to stir the pot. I know you think you're far from arrogant, but you have what, all of nine posts? In all of which you act like you are gratiously blessing us with your great presence to share your supreme knowledge of every subject known to the CFB and telling members of the staff what you will and won't allow. Get a clue "pal" one look at your username says it all.

 

[goldenlid]

ITellTheTruth you are a funny dude. ND sucks right now we all know that, but to say you know more when a coach(USC HC) that some people love said he saw this coming three years ago because of recruiting. Recruiting does matter and you can't say it does not that is how SC got better. 1-8 is bad but these guys are young and they are learning. I love the football team and I hate the fact that people who don't understand the game say they know what's wrong. Plays are not being made when they have to be and making a play is what you do not have to coach it is what a football player does. A navy defender going over the top to make a play, he did that not the coach. The coaches did not tell him to do that.

 

[ITellTheTruth]

Next year we'll see who's laughing.

I'm not laughing at anyone.

However, now you are shifting the argument. Now it doesn't matter how Scout ranked ND's class, now you are going to focus on the delta of 4 and 5 star recruits between coaches.

I am sure I could do another analysis if that were the new threshold and show you plenty of other teams that had far fewer 4 & 5 star recruits from 2002-2004 that seem to be winning more.

So as I have stated, the rankings only mean what you want them to mean. However, they aren't a viable excuse for a 1-8 season by Notre Dame considering most of the teams they lost to had worse recruiting classes from 2002-2007.

That begs the question, if the recruiting isn't to blame, what is? I think in your heart you know the answer to that question.

 

[GoshenGipper]

I am sure I could do another analysis if that were the new threshold and show you plenty of other teams that had far fewer 4 & 5 star recruits from 2002-2004 that seem to be winning more.

How many of them have reliable upperclassmen? That makes a huge difference. How many of them have sophs and freshmen backing up sophs and freshmen all over the field. Yes, ND sould have beaten Navy, and they should be able to beat the next three teams too, but I realistically expected them to have at least 5 losses at this point anyway and maybe 6 with several blowouts to go with it.

 

[ITellTheTruth]

Another thing, did I put all of the blame on Ty? No, I didn't and I find it curious how you think you aren't going to allow somehting on this or any other board. You're a very new poster with a rep of being an arrogant know it all pesemist that just wants to stir the pot. I know you think you're far from arrogant, but you have what, all of nine posts? In all of which you act like you are gratiously blessing us with your great presence to share your supreme knowledge of every subject know to the CFB and telling members of the staff what you will and won't allow. Get a clue "pal" one look at your username says it all.

I have a rep for being arrogant? Please. I am not acting any way, I am merely posting facts and opinions. If you want to see arrogance, look at Charlie Weis.

And you of course know by saying I won't allow something only means I will challenge people on it. I'm SICK AND TIRED of certain factions of the fan base blaming Ty Willingham. It is sickening. The man was fired. He might not have been the greatest recruiter, but as I have just laid out, he wasn't that terrible. He had exactly one subpar class. Blaming him for Weis going for it on 4th down EIGHT TIMES AGAINST Navy is a freaking joke. If you were a true Notre Dame fan you would say, you know what, Weis is not living up to expectations this year. 1-8 wouldn't be acceptable if we had 5 classes ranked in the 40s in a row.

In fact, if you wouldn't mention Ty's name again when discussing ND football I would be OK with that and not bring it up again.

Deal? I doubt it, because you need an excuse for Weis.

 

[marv81s]

were you this critical of Weis last year, or the year before that?

 

[WeisWeisBaby]

was your avatar that beautiful last year, or the year before that?!

 

[GoshenGipper]

He might not have been the greatest recruiter, but as I have just laid out, he wasn't that terrible. He had exactly one subpar class. Blaming him for Weis going for it on 4th down EIGHT TIMES AGAINST Navy is a freaking joke. If you were a true Notre Dame fan you would say, you know what, Weis is not living up to expectations this year.

He wasn't even close! He had one adverage year and two horrendus ones, GET A FREAKING CLUE!

DID I EVER BLAME HIM FOR THIS LOSS AGAINST NAVY, NO! Once again, ND should not have lost to Navy and I put most of the blame on CW for this loss. If you had been around long enough to notice I had been saying so since the game was still going on. I hated both non FG attempts and I thought they were stupid calls. The important thing to remember is that we all stuggle in life sometimes, we all fail to reach some goals and the players or the coaching staff is no different. All I'm saying that CW deserves to be given more time based on his success the first two years, his recruiting efforts, his hard work, and his love for the university.

One final thing quit qestioning my loyalty to the team or the university telling me what I should or shouldn't say if I was "a true ND fan". You haven't even been around long enough to know what my real opions of this year's team really is, or weather I'm a "real ND fan or not". But I forgot, you're not arrogant, right?

BTW, things don't always work out in sports. ND should not have lost to Navy, but Michigan shouldn't have lost to 1AA App. St. at home and USC shouldn't have lost to Stanford and cost themselves a NC that would've been handed to them on a silver plate either. If you really want to talk about comming up short of expectations you need to keep in mind it happens to everyone at sometime.

 

[GoshenGipper]

was your avatar that beautiful last year, or the year before that?!

Almost always .

 

[GoIrish41]

I have a rep for being arrogant? Please. I am not acting any way, I am merely posting facts and opinions. If you want to see arrogance, look at Charlie Weis.

And you of course know by saying I won't allow something only means I will challenge people on it. I'm SICK AND TIRED of certain factions of the fan base blaming Ty Willingham. It is sickening. The man was fired. He might not have been the greatest recruiter, but as I have just laid out, he wasn't that terrible. He had exactly one subpar class. Blaming him for Weis going for it on 4th down EIGHT TIMES AGAINST Navy is a freaking joke. If you were a true Notre Dame fan you would say, you know what, Weis is not living up to expectations this year. 1-8 wouldn't be acceptable if we had 5 classes ranked in the 40s in a row.

In fact, if you wouldn't mention Ty's name again when discussing ND football I would be OK with that and not bring it up again.

Deal? I doubt it, because you need an excuse for Weis.

At no time in my life have I blamed Ty for Charlie's mistakes. Indeed, I'd challenge you to find one instance of me blaming him for this year's woes. That said, you are just being foolish if you cannot concede the point that Ty's recruiting contributed significantly to this year's troubles. Is it the only problem? ... not by a long shot, but it does contribute. Posters like you are unpopular and are labled as arrogant not because of the points you make, but because you are so absolutely positive that you have the all the answers and nothing anybody else says has any merit. You are a flamer, plain and simple. IE is for discussion, not preaching dude. Get with the program.

 

[jonesman]

Guys,
Let this whole discussion die. Next season will prove Charlie a bust or not. He will have 3 full classes of HIS recruits and one class which we will call 1/2 his, 2005. If he is the coaching genius he professes, 2008 will be a year to prove it. We have a very managable schedule, he will have HIS players playing in all positions and most will be returning starters. If we walk away without a winning record in 2008, Charlie can go back to being a genius in the NFL. I am absolutely ill by the results of this year, but he gets a pass to prove himself in 2008 for a few reasons. He had a 2 very successful years, he took over a program with 2 poor recruiting classes, he had a BRUTAL 2007 schedule(it currently ranks number 2 toughest) and he has recruited his ass off. I did predict 6-6 at the beginning of the year which almost got my head chopped off by family and friends, so it is not like I was expecting NC caliber year, but this bites. IF he fails in year four, BYE BYE Chuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will no longer have tolerance for his Egotistic BS.

 

[ITellTheTruth]

He wasn't even close! He had one adverage year and two horrendus ones, GET A FREAKING CLUE!

Your statement is factually incorrect. According to Scout as noted above, he had 2 good recruiting classes and one that was ranked 30th. That isn't 2 horrendous classes.

When you misstate the facts it just points out how weak and ridiculous your position is.

 

[ITellTheTruth]

Guys,
Let this whole discussion die. Next season will prove Charlie a bust or not. He will have 3 full classes of HIS recruits and one class which we will call 1/2 his, 2005. If he is the coaching genius he professes, 2008 will be a year to prove it. We have a very managable schedule, he will have HIS players playing in all positions and most will be returning starters. If we walk away without a winning record in 2008, Charlie can go back to being a genius in the NFL. I am absolutely ill by the results of this year, but he gets a pass to prove himself in 2008 for a few reasons. He had a 2 very successful years, he took over a program with 2 poor recruiting classes, he had a BRUTAL 2007 schedule(it currently ranks number 2 toughest) and he has recruited his ass off. I did predict 6-6 at the beginning of the year which almost got my head chopped off by family and friends, so it is not like I was expecting NC caliber year, but this bites. IF he fails in year four, BYE BYE Chuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will no longer have tolerance for his Egotistic BS.

This is a very fair and unbiased position. I concur.

 

[GoshenGipper]

Your statement is factually incorrect. According to Scout as noted above, he had 2 good recruiting classes and one that was ranked 30th. That isn't 2 horrendous classes.

When you misstate the facts it just points out how weak and ridiculous your position is.

2002 was Davie's last class not Willingham's. That just shows you how little you really know about recruting. You also need to adjust your definition of good in the recruiting world. 27th and 30th are horrendous for ND, they should never be that low, EVER! Not to mention those classes would even rank lower now that most of them flamed out. As one guy said they would probably be closer to 50th. You're the one that's factually incorrect. Get off your high horse.

 

[ITellTheTruth]

2002 was Davie's last class not Willingham's. That just shows you how little you really know about recruting. You also need to adjust your definition of good in the recruiting world. 27th and 30th are horrendous for ND, they should never be that low, EVER! Not to mention those classes would even rank lower now that most of them flamed out. I one guy said they would probably be closer to 50th. You're the one that's factually incorrect. Get off your high horse.

What are you talking about? The 2005 class is not Ty's. HE WAS FIRED in 2004!

 

[johnnd05]

What are you talking about? The 2005 class is not Ty's. HE WAS FIRED in 2004!

... which is when the 2005 class was recruited, dumbass.

Goodness gracious, when do they learn?

 

[ITellTheTruth]

... which is when the 2005 class was recruited, dumbass.

Goodness gracious, when do they learn?

Really? Then why was Weis flying all over the country during the playoffs and Super Bowl to recruit for the 2005 class? Was it just for practice?

 

[GoshenGipper]

What are you talking about? The 2005 class is not Ty's. HE WAS FIRED in 2004!

Let's see, which year is this?

Oh, it's 2007

Which class has ND been recruiting all year, in fact it goes into 2006 as well?

Oh that's right the class of 2008!

Thank you for proving how little you actually know. Thanks for playing, GoshenGipper FTW!

Score +1

 

[GoshenGipper]

Really? Then why was Weis flying all over the country during the playoffs and Super Bowl to recruit for the 2005 class? Was it just for practice?

He had about a month to try to recruit I've already stated that in your other thread. Not much can be done in the recruiting world that late into the process. Go look at all of the top guys in Jan. They've already all decided where they'll be attending, or they already have all their visits done and they know their finalists. Plus some are already in school as EEs.

 

[GoIrish41]

Truthteller, you have a total of 14 posts on IE -- seven of them in this thread. These 7 posts have led to you being called a dumbass by a guy who has 3,819 posts and arrogant by another who has 5,558. I thought that CW made the dumbest decision I'd see this week. I stand corrected. When you are talking about recruiting, Gipper is just the wrong guy to call out.