Maybe we need a new OC?

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Weis certainly didn't get it done at the Sugar Bowl... Why is he above criticism?

You know, I look back at the Sugar Bowl and everyone is tearing up Minter for his D... Well you know what? The vaunted offense scored NOT ONCE in the second half.

Time of control?
DRIVE TOTALS: NDame drive: 4 plays 20 yards, 01:49 NDame PUNT
DRIVE TOTALS: NDame drive: 3 plays 7 yards, 01:53 NDame PUNT
DRIVE TOTALS: NDame drive: 1 play 20 yards, 00:38 NDame INT
DRIVE TOTALS: NDame drive: 3 plays 3 yards, 01:04 NDame PUNT
DRIVE TOTALS: NDame drive: 3 plays -1 yards, 01:53 NDame PUNT

Why are people overlooking the fact that the Offense only put up 49 yards TOTAL in the second half??? And they had the ball for 7 minutes and 17 seconds.

The Defense was on the field for nearly 23 minutes!!!

Tell me...why is everyone bitching about the D sucking when the offense did not even PRETEND to show up the second half???

Last time I checked LSU was going all out in the first half and only had 21 points...7 of which came because some unnamed BONEHEAD decided to fake a punt...BADLY.

If you look at the second half the D held LSU to TWO FGs on their first two possessions. Before LSU's TD in the second quarter, the Offense had been on the field twice and done nothing.

The Offense left our Defense twisting in the wind...and yet no one seems to be giving them any blame.

What about Weis?

 

[tommy]

he isnt above the law

 

[ND81]

Some blame should go to Weis, especially on that 4th down call. But what is the guy to do? Freeman drops a ball, the Shark gets hit with a penalty, McKnight decides to not show up (yet again). Players need to execute.

What I don't understand is why are we not following the USC model from last year's game. We had the ball for what, close to 40 minutes that game? Why not try and duplicate that model as much as we can. Ball control and keep the other offense on the bench. We know the defense is not any better then it was last year, so why throw them out there for LSU to pick apart.

 

[Ant4NDIrish]

Weis certainly didn't get it done at the Sugar Bowl... Why is he above criticism?

You know, I look back at the Sugar Bowl and everyone is tearing up Minter for his D... Well you know what? The vaunted offense scored NOT ONCE in the second half.

Time of control?
DRIVE TOTALS: NDame drive: 4 plays 20 yards, 01:49 NDame PUNT
DRIVE TOTALS: NDame drive: 3 plays 7 yards, 01:53 NDame PUNT
DRIVE TOTALS: NDame drive: 1 play 20 yards, 00:38 NDame INT
DRIVE TOTALS: NDame drive: 3 plays 3 yards, 01:04 NDame PUNT
DRIVE TOTALS: NDame drive: 3 plays -1 yards, 01:53 NDame PUNT

Why are people overlooking the fact that the Offense only put up 49 yards TOTAL in the second half??? And they had the ball for 7 minutes and 17 seconds.

The Defense was on the field for nearly 23 minutes!!!

Tell me...why is everyone bitching about the D sucking when the offense did not even PRETEND to show up the second half???

Last time I checked LSU was going all out in the first half and only had 21 points...7 of which came because some unnamed BONEHEAD decided to fake a punt...BADLY.

If you look at the second half the D held LSU to TWO FGs on their first two possessions. Before LSU's TD in the second quarter, the Offense had been on the field twice and done nothing.

The Offense left our Defense twisting in the wind...and yet no one seems to be giving them any blame.

What about Weis?

All I can say is he was OC for 3 Super Bowl Champions!

 

[tommy]

All I can say is he was OC for 3 Super Bowl Champions!

Im sure he would be the first to say he has some stuff to learn . he has time

 

[marv81s]

I agree with you post for the most part LMI, but 600+ yards given up again.

Missed tackles, several big plays given up again in a game, wide open receivers, shitty ass blitz schemes. The D didn't do themselves any favors to help get them off the field either.

Plenty of blame to go around, I still say 80% of what happened in that bowl game is on the D, and the other 20% on the O.

 

[IrishFanDC]

The Offense left our Defense twisting in the wind...and yet no one seems to be giving them any blame.

What about Weis?

If Charlie relinquishes his role, what else will he have to do with himself for 3 1/2 hours on Saturday afternoons in the Fall? Sorry to be quippy, but sometimes I wonder...I really do.

 

[johnnd05]

What I don't understand is why are we not following the USC model from last year's game. We had the ball for what, close to 40 minutes that game? Why not try and duplicate that model as much as we can. Ball control and keep the other offense on the bench. We know the defense is not any better then it was last year, so why throw them out there for LSU to pick apart.

That's exactly what we did in the first half (19 minutes of possession). But it didn't last ...

 

[leprechaun4life]

ND tried to keep the ball for 40 minutes, but the defense started the second half. The offense had trouble, but by the time they got the ball in the second half they were down big. The offense seems to panic, maybe if the defense were better maybe the offensive players wouldn't feel like they have to score every posession. I think the play calling was good, but I don't think the players executed the plays to perfection. Weis' going for it on fourth down in his own territory shows just how much trust he has in the defense, nada.

 

[irishtexan]

This is absolutely killing me. LSU HAS BETTER PLAYERS THAN WE DO. THAT IS WHY WE GOT BEAT. Compare the talent levels of each rosters recruiting classes and you will see. I was at the game and it was clear talent was a HUGE issue. Charlie has done what he could with what he had. Now it is his turn to play the guys he recruited. A 10 win season with Willinghams classes is stellar in my book.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

All I can say is he was OC for 3 Super Bowl Champions!

Not at ND.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

I agree with you post for the most part LMI, but 600+ yards given up again.

Missed tackles, several big plays given up again in a game, wide open receivers, shitty ass blitz schemes. The D didn't do themselves any favors to help get them off the field either.

Plenty of blame to go around, I still say 80% of what happened in that bowl game is on the D, and the other 20% on the O.

I would say 60% D/40% O

A champion team CANNOT leave the other team's offense on the field that much, period. In the first half, but for a dumb punt-fake call, that game was even.

The second half was all about letting the defense twist in the wind.

I do agree the D blows, but everyone sure seems to ignore the fact that we moved the ball only about 50 yards in 30 minutes.

 

[IrishFanDC]

That's exactly what we did in the first half (19 minutes of possession). But it didn't last ...

I think part of the problem, to address the two previous questions about possession, is Charlie's philosophy of wanting the ball first every single game. By virtue of receiving in the first half and kicking off in the second (most recently seen in the LSU game), the ability to hold the ball for any amount of time was lost because LSU did the same thing Charlie wants to do. Even though LSU could have scored at will all night long in the 2nd half, they held the ball on each offensive possession for a significant-enough amount of time to keep their own D off the field and rested yet, more importantly, to keep Notre Dame's O off. It was like Miles stole the plan. Key was that his team executed.

Either Charlie has to stop wanting the ball to start the game or it'll be tough to possess the ball for long durations in the 2nd halves of games. Memory isn't helping me and I'm not going to take the time to find the data at the moment, but it'd be interesting to see what 2005's USC-ND game looked like in that regard (coin-toss results/outcomes). Heck, try any game that was close. It seemed that that USC game was the best ball-control game Notre Dame has executed since Weis got there where the outcome was a near win vs. a big team and ball-control mattered.

I guess what I'm trying to say in a nutshell is that I'm a firm believer in the concept of hogging possession if you both say you're going to and then actually attempt to. I just can't understand how CW got away from it so quickly after last year's modest success vs. the "big teams" on the schedule. The wanting the ball thing is so irrational.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

This is absolutely killing me. LSU HAS BETTER PLAYERS THAN WE DO. THAT IS WHY WE GOT BEAT. Compare the talent levels of each rosters recruiting classes and you will see. I was at the game and it was clear talent was a HUGE issue. Charlie has done what he could with what he had. Now it is his turn to play the guys he recruited. A 10 win season with Willinghams classes is stellar in my book.

You are absolutely right...this really is the key. The Defense is being told what to do but they are not executing.

HOWEVER, this raises an interesting issue:
Weis is running the team like its a PRO team, not a college one. I think at times he expects near-perfect execution...and when it does not work, it goes VERY badly.

Just a thought.

 

[FleaFlicker]

Well there was no way Weis COULD really play a ball control game in the second half, like he did in the first. Maybe for the first possession of the second half, but that's it. If you are down 14+ points, and it is close to the end of the 3rd quarter, when your defense hasn't shown any progress in Stopping the opposition, You need to try and score quick. Anyone else realize that even though we had the ball for 20 minutes in the first half, we only scored 14 points?

That wasn't going to cut it.

I'm not saying Charlie is perfect at all, but there was a ton of times where we just didn't execute well. That drop on the first drive... just think if that is a first down, and we get the offense moving. Setting the tone of going up 7-0 instead of down 7-0. Or the countless drops across the middle in the second half.

I didn't see LSU drop crucial balls like that. And when you are outmatched talent-wise, the only thing you can rely on is sheer execution, not raw ability. We didn't do well on that, either offensively or defensively.

Execution is not CW's problem. If he calls the right play, the pass is made, and the player drops it (or fumbles/INTS) that is not the O-Coordinators problem. And that is what was happening all night.

The point remains that in the last two bowl games, against LSU and OSU, ND's defense gave up ~1200 yards of offense. That is flat out rediculous. You will never give your team a chance to win when you play like that.

You can blame the chicken or the egg, Auburn beat LSU this year when they scored 7 points. Florida held LSU to 10 points (we would have won with 14 points).

We haven't been perfect offensively in our biggest games, but can you expect that when your players just aren't executing? Maybe Weis isn't good at getting the players focused. I can understand that. but our offensive schemes have typically worked pretty well. And I felt like our biggest issue was that when we got behind big, early, we had to become predictable and one-dimensional, and that is what hurt us.

Our O-Line played really well in the first half against LSU. I was really impressed, but the passes weren't there, and when they were, they weren't caught. Despite their being big gaps in that zone. Remember, the Shark was a 3 star receiver in high school. Rhema was a 4-star I think. I don't know what Freeman was, but I assume a 3 star.

That is not to say that these aren't great players, but you need people that can execute in the clutch, and it just didn't happen this year. Especially on defense.

No excuse for giving up 47, 41 and 41 points in our three biggest games (not to mention 40+ against MSU).

We need a defense first, that should be our priority. Too bad our big D recruits didn't head this way, it isn't going to be much better until...

A. We get all new defensive talent.
B. We get a new D-Coordinator

I'd prefer both to happen.

 

[GREENJERSEYS'07]

ND tried to keep the ball for 40 minutes, but the defense started the second half. The offense had trouble, but by the time they got the ball in the second half they were down big. The offense seems to panic, maybe if the defense were better maybe the offensive players wouldn't feel like they have to score every posession. I think the play calling was good, but I don't think the players executed the plays to perfection. Weis' going for it on fourth down in his own territory shows just how much trust he has in the defense, nada.

to start with by the time the offense got the ball in the second half,notre dame was not down big,unless you consider 10 points that great of a margin.Then the next time lsu gets the ball the defense holds them to another field goal.All notre dame did on offense was 4 and out,then 3 and out.

this isn't a jab at you personally or anything,but as far as the offense feeling the pressure to score because of the defense...what about several other games this year in the first quarter when the games were close and the offense still didn't produce.
I really doubt the offense was on the sideline tninking "we gotta score,we gotta score,I just know the defense is gonna blowit"

I would agree that going for it on 4th down could have something to do with weis's lack of confidence in the defense,but I really think it was more of "set the tone' type of call.I still think it was a good call,but TT should have recognized that lsu wasn't fooled one bit.
Also,this is kind of a moot point because all teams do punt,but why was notre dame even in a 4th down predicament their first series to start with.

 

[goldenechoes]

Weis certainly didn't get it done at the Sugar Bowl... Why is he above criticism?

You know, I look back at the Sugar Bowl and everyone is tearing up Minter for his D... Well you know what? The vaunted offense scored NOT ONCE in the second half.

Time of control?
DRIVE TOTALS: NDame drive: 4 plays 20 yards, 01:49 NDame PUNT
DRIVE TOTALS: NDame drive: 3 plays 7 yards, 01:53 NDame PUNT
DRIVE TOTALS: NDame drive: 1 play 20 yards, 00:38 NDame INT
DRIVE TOTALS: NDame drive: 3 plays 3 yards, 01:04 NDame PUNT
DRIVE TOTALS: NDame drive: 3 plays -1 yards, 01:53 NDame PUNT

Why are people overlooking the fact that the Offense only put up 49 yards TOTAL in the second half??? And they had the ball for 7 minutes and 17 seconds.

The Defense was on the field for nearly 23 minutes!!!

Tell me...why is everyone bitching about the D sucking when the offense did not even PRETEND to show up the second half???

Last time I checked LSU was going all out in the first half and only had 21 points...7 of which came because some unnamed BONEHEAD decided to fake a punt...BADLY.

If you look at the second half the D held LSU to TWO FGs on their first two possessions. Before LSU's TD in the second quarter, the Offense had been on the field twice and done nothing.

The Offense left our Defense twisting in the wind...and yet no one seems to be giving them any blame.

What about Weis?

You cant pretend like our offense exists in a bubble.

I know your point is most likely to deflect criticism from Minter, but he has run out of excuses.

 

[iloveirish_12]

I do agree with him. Its sad to say but I think Weis might not be a great player caller like we think he is. Maybe its just me but I almost know every play he is going to run on like third and fourth down.

 

[Junkhead]

The Offense had a bad half. The Defense had a bad 2 years.

 

[GREENJERSEYS'07]

This is absolutely killing me. LSU HAS BETTER PLAYERS THAN WE DO. THAT IS WHY WE GOT BEAT. Compare the talent levels of each rosters recruiting classes and you will see. I was at the game and it was clear talent was a HUGE issue. Charlie has done what he could with what he had. Now it is his turn to play the guys he recruited. A 10 win season with Willinghams classes is stellar in my book.

yes you are right and a very good point.Last year we all were saying that weis is winning with ty's recruits and this year we all blamed the blowout's on ty's recruits.
Last year also had a few more good players.
I believe that weis is a good coach,but at the same time he knew what kind of team he had this year and also knew he was going to do the best he could.
As a coach you just don't tell the public that these guys aren't that good.I mean only john l. smith would tell the media that what you see on the field is what they do in practice.
Weis did the best he could with what he had.Went to a bcs bowl probably knowing that the outcome wouldn't be that spectacular,but that's just something you don't say in public.What would any player think if his coach said that.
Plus,anything can happen too,so weis had to keep his players positive.

 

[ND81]

The Offense had a bad half. The Defense had a bad 2 years.

Bingo...This season, LSU 332 Yds Receiving, Purdue 398 Yds Receiving (F-ing Purdue!)

 

[GREENJERSEYS'07]

The Offense had a bad half. The Defense had a bad 2 years.

this wasn't the only game that the offense had a bad half in.
One thing I would like to see change next year is the offensive penalties too.

this isn't a jab at you either,but i find it funny that anytime,anyone wants to start talking about the offense,most just want to focus back on the defense.The whole team had some serious problems this year.the offense was just better at times.

 

[brownkj002]

Both sides need to make plays, period. I don't know how many huge drops ND had this year that killed drives. Until ND gets consistent playmakers; they will struggle. On the D, I don't have to say anything; we already know about them.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

to start with by the time the offense got the ball in the second half,notre dame was not down big,unless you consider 10 points that great of a margin.Then the next time lsu gets the ball the defense holds them to another field goal.All notre dame did on offense was 4 and out,then 3 and out.

this isn't a jab at you personally or anything,but as far as the offense feeling the pressure to score because of the defense...what about several other games this year in the first quarter when the games were close and the offense still didn't produce.
I really doubt the offense was on the sideline tninking "we gotta score,we gotta score,I just know the defense is gonna blowit"

I would agree that going for it on 4th down could have something to do with weis's lack of confidence in the defense,but I really think it was more of "set the tone' type of call.I still think it was a good call,but TT should have recognized that lsu wasn't fooled one bit.
Also,this is kind of a moot point because all teams do punt,but why was notre dame even in a 4th down predicament their first series to start with.

EXACTLY!!!

We were NOT down big...until the Offense kept going 3 and out...

 

[IrishFanDC]

EXACTLY!!!

We were NOT down big...until the Offense kept going 3 and out...

Hence my statement about ball control. By being only down 10 and churning your own way down on your own time and pace, you're breaking up LSU's offensive momentum, predisposing them to their own 3 and outs...or fumbles...or interceptions (i.e. what happened in the first half when ND offense AND defense surged for a few minutes before the half).

At any rate, you need to take hold of that momentum that goes along with pacing the game. I'll agree the 10 points down wasn't huge, but it was the inability to hold onto the ball for more than 3 plays and churn out those 10+ of your own via breaking your opponent somehow to get back into it is the strategic difference.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

You cant pretend like our offense exists in a bubble.

I know your point is most likely to deflect criticism from Minter, but he has run out of excuses.

You miss my point entirely.

I think the attacks on our CRAPPY Defense (yes, it's crappy) is an effort to deflect attention from the fact that the Offense is much more ineffective this year.

Let's face it, the offense played on it's heels all year long...they usually came out flat...and took a couple quarters to warm up. How many times can you remember us struggling this year to get started? I remember a bunch...

The REASON I POSTED THIS is to point out that everyone is vilifying Minter, yet we have some serious underperformance offensively and no one seems to care. Not one thread talking about the shitty offense...but TONS talking about shitty D.

This team has issues in ALL THREE areas: Special Teams, Offense, and Defense.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Both sides need to make plays, period. I don't know how many huge drops ND had this year that killed drives. Until ND gets consistent playmakers; they will struggle. On the D, I don't have to say anything; we already know about them.

Yeah, the drops were HUGE...in fact, they accounted for a number of POINTS ON TURNOVERS for our opponents. UM and LSU come to mind... (Carlson and McKnight's deflections) Then we had dropped passes in the endzone or on easy throws.

Ugh.

I am glad the Seniors did so well these last 2 years...but I am also glad the new blood is coming in. Growing pains will be tough, but the talent level is going to be high and it will be great to see Weis put guys through his program from Day1.

 

[IrishFanDC]

The REASON I POSTED THIS is to point out that everyone is vilifying Minter, yet we have some serious underperformance offensively and no one seems to care. Not one thread talking about the shitty offense...but TONS talking about shitty D.

This team has issues in ALL THREE areas: Special Teams, Offense, and Defense.

Yeah, it was pretty shitty.

But you know, people just need someone to blame. Good luck finding other people who'll throw the entire team under the bus. I'm about ready to move on to next season at this point. Forget the Sugar Bowl.

Besides, how can I not forget about the Sugar Bowl? I'm living in Ohio State Hell at this moment. Friggin' bandwagon fans.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

The Offense had a bad half. The Defense had a bad 2 years.

ummm...the Defense has sucked for two years...no doubt.

The offense has had so many bad halves I have lost count...

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Yeah, it was pretty shitty.

Hard to imagine that we would be this upset after a 10-3 season...but it's great to see Weis raise expectations that high, eh?

He knows what they are...we are shooting for an NC...nothing less. This was our best shot for a couple years at least. It was tough seeing such a tremendously veteran team get it's ass kicked badly 3 times in one year.

It just shows that Weis needs his time to continue bringing in top talent. Willingham never did it...Davie did, but could not coach it. In 2 years we will have a great team talent-wise...if the coaching matches we will be playing for all the marbles.

But let's face it, this team is not as good this year as it was last year...and that's tough to bear given all the talent that returned.