Is this a "well coached" football team?

[DillonHall]

I wasn't trying to target you with my post. Just the argument in general. Two of our three losses this year are by Top 15 teams so it's not like we are getting beat by actual cupcakes. If I recall correctly USF was poised to win the Big East this year and started out 4-1 then fell apart for whatever reason. We easily beat ourselves into two of the three losses (ten turnovers). USC is really good this year and Barkley is playing his way into the #1 overall pick this year. Who knows how that game goes if Crist doesn't fumble.

SOS is tough to sell because teams you beat lose to teams they should have beat. Teams you lose to lose to teams they should have beat or win games they weren't supposed. Does that make you any better or any worse then what you really are? Who really knows but you are what your record says you are. I argued for a 9-3 season this year. A win at Stanford is viable.

They played in the classic trap game last night and came out victors, wasn't pretty but got the W.

Yeah, I know you weren't speaking directly to me (I think we generally agree). Reps on your comments on SOS.

 

[BobD]

Of course we need speed, but I know you are not arguing that BC has more speed than us. What we need is our coach to be rational with regards to the QB situation. I think everybody and their mother gets it that Tommy is his boy. But like any boy who is not performing, he needs to be disciplined. Sit him down for a series.

God I would love to know what the real reason is for our QB fiasco. Performance is definitely not it. It just doesn't make any sense.

I'm not talking about one game, I'm talking about the whole season. Watch the highlights on ESPN or CSN, when they show ours it almost looks like slow motion compared to the top 10 to 15 teams.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

I think its way to soon to tell. Kelly is trying to coach up a team of players that were not taught fundamentals for their entire ND career. It takes longer then 2 years for a coach to break old habits in his players. Plus, they have to be de-taught Weis scheme and re-taught Kelly's scheme

I think that it was Kelly "controversial" comments were eluding to a few weeks back. That its a process.

I think, especially when Kelly gets his pieces, this team will look very well coached. Now its just a mix and match of talent trying to win football games

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

I'm not talking about one game, I'm talking about the whole season. Watch the highlights on ESPN or CSN, when they show ours it almost looks like slow motion compared to the top 10 to 15 teams.

I think in certain positions (CB, OLB, S) we can improve our speed but overall I think we have adequate team speed to compete anybody in the country. I think you maybe suffering from the grass is greener on the other side mentality. We should have beaten every team in our schedule this year. Speed has not been our issue. QB play and turnovers have been our issue. Both of those areas fall on, to a degree, coach Kelly.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

I think its way to soon to tell. Kelly is trying to coach up a team of players that were not taught fundamentals for their entire ND career. It takes longer then 2 years for a coach to break old habits in his players. Plus, they have to be de-taught Weis scheme and re-taught Kelly's scheme

I think that it was Kelly "controversial" comments were eluding to a few weeks back. That its a process.

I think, especially when Kelly gets his pieces, this team will look very well coached. Now its just a mix and match of talent trying to win football games

That is such a load of crap. Kelly was dead wrong when he made those comments. Take away the players that "were not taught fundamentals" and tell me how good this team is. One thing Kelly is damn good at is how he shields himself from criticism. After the USC game, it was the "other" players BS and not his candy @ss gameplan.

 

[DillonHall]

That is such a load of crap. Kelly was dead wrong when he made those comments. Take away the players that "were not taught fundamentals" and tell me how good this team is. One thing Kelly is damn good at is how he shields himself from criticism. After the USC game, it was the "other" players BS and not his candy @ss gameplan.

He shouldn't have said that to the media, but I don't think it's untrue. At times, BK is very candid with the media, and I think this was a case of that.

 

[Patulski]

The only team we faced with elite speed this year was USC, and speed was definitely an issue in that game. So was our line play on both sides of the ball.

We have a ways to go across the board before we can contend on an elite level.

I think in certain positions (CB, OLB, S) we can improve our speed but overall I think we have adequate team speed to compete anybody in the country. I think you maybe suffering from the grass is greener on the other side mentality. We should have beaten every team in our schedule this year. Speed has not been our issue. QB play and turnovers have been our issue. Both of those areas fall on, to a degree, coach Kelly.

 

[PADOMERNUT]

Yeah, I did. But let me spell it out for you: Michigan on the road in the first night game at UM is a huge game. A night game at home against your biggest rival USC with many of the best recruits watching is another huge game. We've had chances to take this program to the next level.

I wouldnt put either in the category of program changing wins though, at least not in the sense that OP was referring to.

 

[NDinL.A.]

That is such a load of crap. Kelly was dead wrong when he made those comments. Take away the players that "were not taught fundamentals" and tell me how good this team is. One thing Kelly is damn good at is how he shields himself from criticism. After the USC game, it was the "other" players BS and not his candy @ss gameplan.

The players came out flat for USC. USC!!!!!! That is on the players, not Kelly. There should be no need for a motivational speech, no need for theatrics. It was the biggest game of the season, and the players **** the bed. That's why Kelly completely undressed them on that Wedn, and it went to the media the next day. Thank God. When the players went to twitter with it, it showed what Kelly said was true.

The soft players that have permeated ND for the past decade need to go. Kelly, for all his faults, has brought back to ND a toughness that has been sorely lacking. And all you have to look at is the lines. The O-line is being coached up to block well and to block HARD. The D-line is a revelation compared to what it has been this decade.

Look at the young guys, 'Kelly's guys', and look at the desire and enthusiasm they play with. Lynch, Tuitt, Collinsworth, Rees (recruited by Weis, loved by Kelly, and for all hs faults, he's a competitor and an extremely hard worker), Niklas, Atkinson, reportedly the new o-linemen, etc etc. These guys get after it. It matters to them. Losing is extremely painful to them. You can see it. That hasn't been the case in the past. Football hasn't been the end-all-be-all for too many of these guys. But it is for the younger guys.

So no, he was not dead wrong when he said that. He was absolutely right, and they are 4-0 since he said that (with one of those being an ugly win yesterday). He keeps getting recruits like he has been, and if he gets a QB that can run his system completely, then we'll be really, really good.

 

[Patulski]

I think its way to soon to tell. Kelly is trying to coach up a team of players that were not taught fundamentals for their entire ND career. /QUOTE]

I think the biggest difference between Kelly and Weis- and why I'm a Kelly fan- is toughness.

I looked at the field yesterday and there were 5 guys on crutches, and guys limping all over the field. Kelly is practicing harder, hitting during the week, which is turning into a tougher team. We've had three games that came down to us winning because we were tougher. Guys limp off the field, get taped up and go back in. That tells me that if you take yourself out of the game with Kelly, you better have a major injury, like Jonas had.

If he can recruit talent and depth, so that the next man in isn't a drop off, we're going to have toughness and talent, which are the two main ingredients of elite football.

 

[DillonHall]

I wouldnt put either in the category of program changing wins though, at least not in the sense that OP was referring to.

Yeah, I thought someone (don't remember who) had a great point when he said that there's no way to know whether or not a win (or loss) is a program-changer at the time that it occurs. Who knows where we'd be if we'd beaten one or both of those teams?

 

[DillonHall]

Just curious regarding that media incident: Did Kelly tell this to the players first, or did they hear about it from the comments he made during that press conference? It seemed like a couple reporters pushed him to make those comments...

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

The only team we faced with elite speed this year was USC, and speed was definitely an issue in that game. So was our line play on both sides of the ball.

We have a ways to go across the board before we can contend on an elite level.

I agree that line play was the factor in our loss to USC, but I also think it was our gameplan. I don't remember us ever having a speed advantage against USC in my lifetime. With that said, the one way to neutralize speed is to run through it and also to make speedy players indecisive. We did none of that with our gameplan. We offered a one dimensional offense...and yet we were still in the game if not for the turnovers.

I don't think we are that far off from fielding a team that could contend on an elite level. If our we keep our current recruits, we will upgrade the secondary with speed/athleticism...and add some speedy OLB and this defense will be more than able to compete. My concern is the offense. The QB position is a quagmire; and in Kelly's offense, the key to success. Rees will start next year and we will run into the same issues. If Rees doesn't start, we will be breaking a new QB...and that is not going to be pretty.

 

[phork]

I fail to see the cupcake schedule analogy.

USF had an entire summer to prepare for us. If Jonas (Bless his heart) doesn't get stripped, even if we settle for 3 points, I'm confident that outcome is different.

We had all summer to prepare as well. I am confident in the fact if we score more points then we would have won.

Michigan. They lose to MSU who we beat. A Top 20 team in the country.

We lost to UM, transitional arguments don't hold water.

Pitt. I believe they are on coach number 3 in one calendar year. 5-5 team who has wins over USF, CONN, and Louisville. 3 of the 5 losses are by 4 points or less.

Shouldn't have been close.

Purdue. I think a pretty decent year for Purdue's standard. Wins over Illinois and OSU.

Don't let the Big10 fool you this year. They are awful from top to bottom.

AFA. Triple option attack. #3 in rushing. #27 in points scored

Remember when we used to stomp these teams with reckless abandon? Now its a bullet point highlight to our season?

USC. Turns out most were wrong about USC and they are a legit Top 10 team this season. They lost to ASU and Stanford but took Stanford 3OT to do it. Just beat Oregon too. If Crist doesn't fumble, maybe he is getting his own movie made about him.

But he did, and they fisted us, we did not compete in that game.

Navy. Uncharacteristic year for them but they are in transition with starting QBs.

Again no reason to bullet point this victory. 44 straight years we beat them.

Wake Forest. They lose by 3 to Clemson who gets pounded by NC State who lost to Wake earlier in the year. Top win is Florida State.

If any conference is worse than the Big10 its the ACC.

BC. Biggest win is NC State.

2 point victory against that team is embarrassing. These are the teams I expect to stomp in year 2.

Stanford. Up next and certainly is beatable.

Maybe, not by us.

 

[Patulski]

Look at the young guys, 'Kelly's guys', and look at the desire and enthusiasm they play with. Lynch, Tuitt, Collinsworth, Rees (recruited by Weis, loved by Kelly, and for all hs faults, he's a competitor and an extremely hard worker), Niklas, Atkinson, reportedly the new o-linemen, etc etc. These guys get after it. It matters to them. Losing is extremely painful to them. You can see it. That hasn't been the case in the past. Football hasn't been the end-all-be-all for too many of these guys. But it is for the younger guys..

Same could be said for Manti, Johnson, Slaughter, Blanton, Gray, Gray, Eifert, Dever, Robinson, Cave, Smith etc etc..

Football is a team game, and all these kids have worked too hard for anybody to divide them.

 

[Patulski]

I think from 1988-1993 we had more speed than USC. Go watch the Reggie Brooks game, he's running right past their secondary. Rice kept on an option for 80 yards in 1988, running right by their secondary. Rocket was faster than anybody on the field. Defensively, Lou played conservatively, but they didn't have big plays like we did, which is a testimony to our back end defensive speed.

That being said, I would agree that Kelly should have run the ball more in this years USC game. The fact that we were still in the game, poised to tie it before the fumble for a TD is a good sign. I think we still would have lost, but we'd be going into the 4th qtr with a chance to win against a good team.

Still, Kelly can upgrade our speed, which will be important if we're going to be elite. Let's hope he does.

I agree that line play was the factor in our loss to USC, but I also think it was our gameplan. I don't remember us ever having a speed advantage against USC in my lifetime. With that said, the one way to neutralize speed is to run through it and also to make speedy players indecisive. We did none of that with our gameplan. We offered a one dimensional offense...and yet we were still in the game if not for the turnovers.

I don't think we are that far off from fielding a team that could contend on an elite level. If our we keep our current recruits, we will upgrade the secondary with speed/athleticism...and add some speedy OLB and this defense will be more than able to compete. My concern is the offense. The QB position is a quagmire; and in Kelly's offense, the key to success. Rees will start next year and we will run into the same issues. If Rees doesn't start, we will be breaking a new QB...and that is not going to be pretty.

 

[Veer option]

In my twenty five years of being an Irish fan I would say that a lot of Irish teams would have folded namely the BD, TW and CW teams. This team aside from the U$C game has played tough every game. I contend that if this was a CW team the Irish would have lost last night, and perhaps lost to Pitt and WF. What this team lacks in overall team speed they make up for in good hard tackling and solid offensive line play. That is good coaching right there. To some up, yes I think this team is well coached and it is certainly refreshing to see it considering some of the abysmal teams which have put on the Blue and Gold.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

I think from 1988-1993 we had more speed than USC. Go watch the Reggie Brooks game, he's running right past their secondary. Rice kept on an option for 80 yards in 1988, running right by their secondary. Rocket was faster than anybody on the field. Defensively, Lou played conservatively, but they didn't have big plays like we did, which is a testimony to our back end defensive speed.

That being said, I would agree that Kelly should have run the ball more in this years USC game. The fact that we were still in the game, poised to tie it before the fumble for a TD is a good sign. I think we still would have lost, but we'd be going into the 4th qtr with a chance to win against a good team.

Still, Kelly can upgrade our speed, which will be important if we're going to be elite. Let's hope he does.

You know...I never thought of those teams 1988-1993 as fast or speedy. What stood out to me about those teams was the toughness on both sides of the ball.

 

[Al H.]

Second year staff with many true freshmen playing key roles--I'll reserve judgement, but there is a marked improvement since Kelly took over. I would like to see a more attacking style defense, but again, it's year two. They are using what works to win while implementing their system. It's not immediate improvement where ND is concerned in comparison to other programs.

Agreed. I want Kelly to be comfortable at Notre Dame, he'll perform better that way.
He makes some arguably weak calls on occasion, but all coaches do that. Kelly's doing a very good job. Punt returning is the obvious exception. And Kyle Brynza, what happened to you out there yesterday, dude. Awful and yet you were doing pretty good there before this game. Get back on track.

 

[Chicago Irish Fan]

Better than last year? Going to be heading into a bowl game at 8-4 after Stanford bends us over the bed again. With "close" victories vs BC and Wake it is possible that we go 8-5, again.

I then provide as exhibit 'A' the Michigan Wolverines. The last 3 years have been the historically worst teams in UM history, we managed 1 victory. Then comes this year. New coach, new offensive system, new defensive system. Hoke is killing it in recruiting and winning on the field. They are going to finish 10-2 and quite possibly with a BCS bowl in the works. They are the #1 or #2 recruiting class with more to add.

Are you really so obtuse that the only way you can measure improvement is through wins and losses? This years team would destroy last years team. We have more talent and depth at literally every position. Did you even watch us play in 2010? For 3/4 of the year our defense was horse **** and our offense went through long stretches where we couldn't even move the ball. But hey, if you want to incessantly complain because we might only be one game better than last year, go do that.

 

[irishff1014]

Duke scored more then we did i think thats all that needs to be said.

 

[DillonHall]

Are you really so obtuse that the only way you can measure improvement is through wins and losses? This years team would destroy last years team. We have more talent and depth at literally every position. Did you even watch us play in 2010? For 3/4 of the year our defense was horse **** and our offense went through long stretches where we couldn't even move the ball. But hey, if you want to incessantly complain because we might only be one game better than last year, go do that.

I know that there's been lots of improvement, especially in the run game, but it's not a certainty that 2011 ND would beat 2010 ND.

 

[phork]

Are you really so obtuse that the only way you can measure improvement is through wins and losses? This years team would destroy last years team. We have more talent and depth at literally every position. Did you even watch us play in 2010? For 3/4 of the year our defense was horse **** and our offense went through long stretches where we couldn't even move the ball. But hey, if you want to incessantly complain because we might only be one game better than last year, go do that.

Generally when you win more year over year it shows progress. Pre-Rees, I would say no, Post-Crist I would say its an even fight. If we do not win this bowl game and end up at 8-5 again are you going to say that there has been improvement? What are we going to do next year with half the OLine graduating, Floyd graduating, Jonas graduating. I don't think our WRs are up to the task, I don't think Cierre can weather the 12 game schedule and our secondary is going to be worse. We could quite possibly lose Manti in the middle as well.

I am already calling for a train wreck of a season next year before anything gets better. So as long as you guys are happy being a middling to bottom Big10 team then so be it, but do not **** on the people who have other opinions that do not blow sunshine up the coaching staffs collective butts. This was our best shot at the BCS, because we certainly aren't tapping it next year.

 

[AKRowdy]

8-3 and ranked in the top 25, I think that's an improvement from last year. And it also shows that the team is "well coached" after lossing those 2 heartbreaking games when they could've caved in, but they didn't. Just think if 2 plays go our way, 1 in the USF game and 1 in the UM game, we would probably be 10-1. Would we still be having this discussion?

 

[phork]

8-3 and ranked in the top 25, I think that's an improvement from last year. And it also shows that the team is "well coached" after lossing those 2 heartbreaking games when they could've caved in, but they didn't. Just think if 2 plays go our way, 1 in the USF game and 1 in the UM game, we would probably be 10-1. Would we still be having this discussion?

And just think had 3 plays went the other way? (Pitt, BC, Wake). You can't play that stupid game, the plays DID go that way. We are 8-3 hanging by a thread to the top25 and are getting ready for the Stanford Jailsexing, that is what we are.

 

[D-BOE34]

Generally when you win more year over year it shows progress. Pre-Rees, I would say no, Post-Crist I would say its an even fight. If we do not win this bowl game and end up at 8-5 again are you going to say that there has been improvement? What are we going to do next year with half the OLine graduating, Floyd graduating, Jonas graduating. I don't think our WRs are up to the task, I don't think Cierre can weather the 12 game schedule and our secondary is going to be worse. We could quite possibly lose Manti in the middle as well.

I am already calling for a train wreck of a season next year before anything gets better. So as long as you guys are happy being a middling to bottom Big10 team then so be it, but do not **** on the people who have other opinions that do not blow sunshine up the coaching staffs collective butts. This was our best shot at the BCS, because we certainly aren't tapping it next year.

At least were not 3-9 or 6-6 and we DO win the close ones. Next year can suck my ****. Nobody expects us to be amazing! It is a brutal schedule. Have you watched the last few years? People asked why am I a ND fan and I had no response. Now I can say we win. We fight. Go to DD with your nonsense. They will love it! Hell, NDnation will accept you!

You have no idea what we can be next year. You have no idea what Cierre can handle. You have no idea where our WR's will be. You have no idea where our back ups will be. YOU HAVE NO IDEA LIKE THE REST OF US!

 

[DillonHall]

Why does everyone think the 2012 schedule is that difficult? I think it's more manageable, especially since I think we'll continue to improve.

 

[irishff1014]

Why does everyone think the 2012 schedule is that difficult? I think it's more manageable, especially since I think we'll continue to improve.

I agree it had alot of average or below aaveage teams. The only teams so far that are good that we have played are USC and Mich. As much as i hate to say it they are playing good.

 

[Patulski]

You know...I never thought of those teams 1988-1993 as fast or speedy. What stood out to me about those teams was the toughness on both sides of the ball.

Go watch the 1988 Miami game. There were two 50+ yard pass plays to Watters and Rocket against Miami, and Miami was the gold standard of speed. Our guys ran right by them.

Those Holtz teams had it all, which is why they were a perennially Top 10 team.

 

[Patulski]

Duke scored more then we did i think thats all that needs to be said.

No it's not. With a few exceptions of the powerhouses, any college team can beat any team during any given week. BC beat NC State last week, who smoked #7 Clemson yesterday. USF beat us and they don't have near the talent we do. And it goes on and on.. Most teams simply don't have the talent and consistency to play well on both sides of the ball every week. We're no exception.