More evidence that ND went backwards under Weis

[elkona]

You may have not noticed, but Hawaii defeated Navy on Saturday at Navy.

We beat the stuffing out of Hawaii last year. Fine, that was last year. But examination of box scores from this year reveals troubling numbers. Hawaii limited Navy to 336 total yards, 248 rushing. That is not exactly stout defense, you might say. But ND gave up 404 total yards to Navy, 348 rushing. Navy got 16 first downs against Hawaii. Navy got 20 against ND. First downs are particularly relevant when discussing Navy because the option attack relies on run gains that translate into long, clock-killing drives.

We are at the point where Notre Dame displays a defense that is inferior to Hawaii's. (Oh, Te'o, I guess you could have stayed at home and played for a good defense, but I shouldn't go there.) This is unforgivable and heartbreaking. It is one major reason why Weis will be fired this week, and why he should be fired. If you are inclined to argue that Chuck deserves one more year, I urge you read through the box scores for Navy vs. Hawaii and Navy vs. Notre Dame. We have essentially turned into a WAC team ourselves -- we can bomb the ball and pile up yards, but we can't stop a running back no matter who he plays for.

http://www.und.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2009-2010/navy.html#GAME.TEM
Navy Midshipmen vs. Hawaii Warriors Box Score, November 28 2009 - NCAA College Football - ESPN

 

[Mr. McGibblets]

pretty sure that game was in Hawaii, just saying. not arguing against your point.

 

[elkona]

It was at Hawaii. And the Navy-ND game was at ND, as you know.

 

[BillyIrish]

You cannot compare games from week to week. Teams match up differently along with a hundred variables that go into a football game. Notre Dame should have taken care of business against Navy, Michigan, UConn but they didn't. Get over it. Actions will be taken. Change is coming. I am as pissed as the next guy, but let's not reach in an attempt to throw dirt in Weis' grave.

 

[dskoo65]

You cannot compare games from week to week. Teams match up differently along with a hundred variables that go into a football game. Notre Dame should have taken care of business against Navy, Michigan, UConn but they didn't..

while the defense is the easiest to blame, ND's offense should have put up more points against:

Michigan-81st ranked defense(one of the worst UM defenses of all time)

Navy-44th ranked defense and completely outmanned on their D line

UCONN-75th ranked defense

these are the type of teams a great offense should lay 40+ points on. had the genius CW offense done what they should to these teams, they's have been 9-3. i still contend they left too many points out on the field, and a big part of that has been due to questionable play calling in the red zone.


add to this, only 22 points against a Pitt defense ranked 25th--a good, not great defense. a truly great offense scores more than 22 against PITT.

a great offense has to bail out a poor defense (see: Stanford)

 

[NDinL.A.]

This is old and tired news. CW should and will be fired. We already knew that. Did you really need Navy losing to Hawaii to finalize it? Navy beating ND finalized it for me, not Hawaii beating Navy.

Also, do you really think Navy got up for Hawaii? Really? Apples to oranges. EVERYBODY gets up for ND. Beating ND makes the season for many of our opponents. Beating Hawaii means just another win for those teams.

Anyways, I'm focusing on the new coach and the recruits he'll keep/bring in. Worrying about why we should fire CW is last on my list...

 

[neags23]

The transitive property doesn't work in football. Especially college football. Just because a > b and c > a does not necessarily mean c > b.

Proof of this is that my alma mater Louisiana Tech lost to Navy. Then Louisiana Tech beat Hawaii. This past weekend, Navy loses to Hawaii.

Just because Hawaii beats Navy and Navy beats ND does not mean that Hawaii would beat ND.

The transitive property of College Football does not hold true.

 

[HawaiianIrish]

Hawaii played thier butts off to beat a flat Navy team. I was at the game Hawaii was pumped up navy was not. The thing is Hawaii's D was able to contain the Navy qb. They were hitting him on every option play. Navys big fullback did have a good game and broke a few 30 yard runs but that was it. In the end Hawaii forced Navy to throw the ball combine that by bad clock management by coach ken and u have a warrior victory.

If ND played Hawaii it would be closer then last years Hawaii Bowl victory but the Irish would win.

 

[kmoose]

these are the type of teams a great offense should lay 40+ points on. had the genius CW offense done what they should to these teams, they's have been 9-3. i still contend they left too many points out on the field, and a big part of that has been due to questionable play calling in the red zone.

Just out of curiousity: What should he have done differently, in regards to playcalling, in the Red Zone, in those games?

 

[dskoo65]

less dependence on fade routes. bootlegs. direct snaps to tate. quite simply, more creativity. ND was 111th in red zone efficiency last year and still a poor 50th this year, but that counts FG's. of 50 red zone trips this year they have 28 TD's. that is not good at all considering the less than stellar defenses they have played against. im no offensive guru, but his inability to get more TD's in the redzone doesnt make CW look like one either.

that is why i get tired of the offense getting a pass because the defense stinks.

somehow, the lack of Charlie Weis genius in the red zone gets overlooked.

the offense should have led ND to more wins this year in spite of the crappy defense.

 

[kmoose]

less dependence on fade routes. bootlegs. direct snaps to tate. quite simply, more creativity. ND was 111th in red zone efficiency last year and still a poor 50th this year, but that counts FG's. of 50 red zone trips this year they have 28 TD's. that is not good at all considering the less than stellar defenses they have played against.

that is why i get tired of the offense getting a pass because the defense stinks.

somehow, the lack of Charlie Weis genius in the red zone gets overlooked.

the offense should have led ND to more wins this year in spite of the crappy defense.

Yes, you should absolutely not depend on the one play that your offense executes the best (the fade route). I STILL don't understand why Holtz continually ran the option in the Red Zone. He should have thrown the ball more often. And what is with not rolling a hobbled Jimmy Clausen out? I mean, am I the only one that recognizes the absolutely astounding mobility of his? I would not have minded seeing more direct snaps to Tate, but then that takes one of your biggest receiving threats out of the picture. So you have to consider that, as well.

 

[WaveDomer]

Yes, you should absolutely not depend on the one play that your offense executes the best (the fade route). I STILL don't understand why Holtz continually ran the option in the Red Zone. He should have thrown the ball more often. And what is with not rolling a hobbled Jimmy Clausen out? I mean, am I the only one that recognizes the absolutely astounding mobility of his? I would not have minded seeing more direct snaps to Tate, but then that takes one of your biggest receiving threats out of the picture. So you have to consider that, as well.

Well, not to beat a dying horse, but the reason the red zone offense wasn't good and the offense between the 20's was good, is the lack of consistent running game.

 

[dskoo65]

Yes, you should absolutely not depend on the one play that your offense executes the best (the fade route). .

if that worked so well in the red zone, ND's touchdown efficiency in the red zone should be much better. hard to execute when the opposing team knows the OC is so obsessed with it. clausen could move good enough to roll out more. it simply opens up passing lanes. i should have said roll him out, not necessarily bootleg.

it was weis job to come up with red zone plays that scored touchdowns. 28 out of 50 trips just isnt very good, and it is even worse considereing many of the defenses they played. if the fade was one of their best red zone plays, it doesnt say much for CW's ability to design a better red zone attack.

 

[rogosIRISH77]

You may have not noticed, but Hawaii defeated Navy on Saturday at Navy.

We beat the stuffing out of Hawaii last year. Fine, that was last year. But examination of box scores from this year reveals troubling numbers. Hawaii limited Navy to 336 total yards, 248 rushing. That is not exactly stout defense, you might say. But ND gave up 404 total yards to Navy, 348 rushing. Navy got 16 first downs against Hawaii. Navy got 20 against ND. First downs are particularly relevant when discussing Navy because the option attack relies on run gains that translate into long, clock-killing drives.

We are at the point where Notre Dame displays a defense that is inferior to Hawaii's. (Oh, Te'o, I guess you could have stayed at home and played for a good defense, but I shouldn't go there.) This is unforgivable and heartbreaking. It is one major reason why Weis will be fired this week, and why he should be fired. If you are inclined to argue that Chuck deserves one more year, I urge you read through the box scores for Navy vs. Hawaii and Navy vs. Notre Dame. We have essentially turned into a WAC team ourselves -- we can bomb the ball and pile up yards, but we can't stop a running back no matter who he plays for.

http://www.und.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2009-2010/navy.html#GAME.TEM
Navy Midshipmen vs. Hawaii Warriors Box Score, November 28 2009 - NCAA College Football - ESPN

oh people and their never ending analogies. when it comes down to it, you cant put statements like that out there based on analogies like these. think about it.... great team, alabama allows 332 yards to auburn, and kentucky only allowed 315. so is bama's defense worse or similar quality to that of kentucky's?

 

[dskoo65]

Well, not to beat a dying horse, but the reason the red zone offense wasn't good and the offense between the 20's was good, is the lack of consistent running game.

that too. personally, i think you have to find creative ways to get the ball in tate's hands more.

lack of said running game is another thing that keeps me off the "weis is an offensive genius" wagon. there was a great deal of dependence on clausen to tate/clausen to floyd, but other aspects of the offense were very pedestrian.

i am one who doesnt think he was such a genius play calller and that was exposed in the red zone.

 

[WaveDomer]

that too. personally, i think you have to find creative ways to get the ball in tate's hands more.

lack of said running game is another thing that keeps me off the "weis is an offensive genius" wagon. there was a great deal of dependence on clausen to tate/clausen to floyd, but other aspects of the offense were very pedestrian.

i am one who doesnt think he was such a genius play calller and that was exposed in the red zone.

ND's offense is overrated. They have all star talent with a handful of guys who could score every time they touched the ball. Everything else, not so much. I think Weis is a very intelligent play caller, but that doesn't amount to much when your team can't execute simple stuff.

I think his resume in the NFL and the fact that teams want him back, is evidence that he can call an offense.

 

[irishtrain]

This is old and tired news. CW should and will be fired. We already knew that. Did you really need Navy losing to Hawaii to finalize it? Navy beating ND finalized it for me, not Hawaii beating Navy.

Also, do you really think Navy got up for Hawaii? Really? Apples to oranges. EVERYBODY gets up for ND. Beating ND makes the season for many of our opponents. Beating Hawaii means just another win for those teams.

Anyways, I'm focusing on the new coach and the recruits he'll keep/bring in. Worrying about why we should fire CW is last on my list...

Because everybody gets up for Notre Dame as we all agree is the major reason I want Stoops. He gets that and has shown that you destroy people when you have the horses to do so. Just remember the Texas Tech game last year-its football and you go for the juglar when you can-take no prisioners. Its happened to Notre Dame many times and pay backs will be a B%^&$.