Discipline and methods of coaching

[tommyIRISH23]

To the world. Mangino is getting shit because he poked a player or pushed him?? Bear Bryant would be turning in his grave. Its a reflection of how soft the world has become. I saw last year on TV that there are people making noise about dodge ball in schools? Its "too violent"? are you kidding me?? Another story was that a school district is banning "high fives" in place of "air fives" because they are too violent? The world is a ugly hard place that couldn't careless if feelings are hurt. We are teaching kids to be soft and weak. This is why theres more kids then ever prescribed xanex to cope with life because they get coddled and sheltered.

As another poster said, lou yanked people off the field by face masks. Imagine the shit storm that would come up today if he did that? Ridiculous. And sad.

Its football. Its violent.

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

Mangino is also as quoted as telling a player if he dropped another pass "he'd send him back to St.Louis to get shot like his brother".

Coaching is much different than it was back during the 60's when the head coach was almost always a drill sargeant that whipped his players into shape, literally. Thats why Bobby Bowden has lost his touch and so has Joe Pa, they're on the field like angry grandpas and their players know it.

Times have changed, the coach is expected to not just coach but unfortunately in way too many cases be the father figure to a player. Like being a father you have to tell them when they're wrong, but you can't berate them to the point of physical abuse.

 

[Ricochet]

It's scary how fast things have changed. I'm 31 and when I was in HS I was once tackled hard from the blindside because I wasn't paying attention and I knew I was in the wrong and didn't mind the action he took and neither did my parents.

Could you imagine if that happened today with most of the soft people that have no respect for discipline?

The coach would be fired on the spot and the parents would have multiple lawsuits.

 

[Ricochet]

Mangino is also as quoted as telling a player if he dropped another pass "he'd send him back to St.Louis to get shot like his brother".

Coaching is much different than it was back during the 60's when the head coach was almost always a drill sargeant that whipped his players into shape, literally. Thats why Bobby Bowden has lost his touch and so has Joe Pa, they're on the field like angry grandpas and their players know it.

That's the problem the kids are soft and they are not an equal to the coaching staff though they think they are because they've been babied by not being told NO.

You can't yell at kids anymore because they've become weak.

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

It's scary how fast things have changed. I'm 31 and when I was in HS I was once tackled hard from the blindside because I wasn't paying attention and I knew I was in the wrong and didn't mind the action he took and neither did my parents.

Could you imagine if that happened today with most of the soft people that have no respect for discipline?

The coach would be fired on the spot and the parents would have multiple lawsuits.

The coach tackled you?

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

That's the problem the kids are soft and they are not an equal to the coaching staff though they think they are because they've been babied by not being told NO.

You can't yell at kids anymore because they've become weak.

Im not sure what you mean by being soft, being berated and the attempts by 1 man to break your spirit is not coaching. If you wan't to learn discipline that way then go to Prison or join the Military. Having a coach reach the point to where he puts his hands on a player because they did not execute a play correctly is not coaching, Mangino allegedly attacked his own player.


I dont even know what you're talking about, coaches have always yelled at kids. Even now. The difference is that they are not physically assaulting them or berating them in front of the team.

When I played football we had drills where the team would gather in a circle as the coach would call an individual player who screwed up in practice into the center of the circle, tell him to remove his helmet and lift his arms, and then call out a player to tackle him hard. If he lowered his arms, it would happen again until eventually he stopped.

That there isn't coaching, it didn't make anyone stronger or better as players because we still went 3-7 that season.

 

[jason_h537]

Im not sure what you mean by being soft, being berated and the attempts by 1 man to break your spirit is not coaching. If you wan't to learn discipline that way then go to Prison or join the Military. Having a coach reach the point to where he puts his hands on a player because they did not execute a play correctly is not coaching, Mangino allegedly attacked his own player.


I dont even know what you're talking about, coaches have always yelled at kids. Even now. The difference is that they are not physically assaulting them or berating them in front of the team.

When I played football we had drills where the team would gather in a circle as the coach would call an individual player who screwed up in practice into the center of the circle, tell him to remove his helmet and lift his arms, and then call out a player to tackle him hard. If he lowered his arms, it would happen again until eventually he stopped.

That there isn't coaching, it didn't make anyone stronger or better as players because we still went 3-7 that season.

Agree with this one

I am not sure what the question is. Are you upset because rules seem to favor the offense now like the defensless ploayer or horsecollar rule? if thats the case there are multiple studies and examples of former players having physical and phsycological problems after football.

If it is something else please elaborate

 

[I Dont Miss Charlie]

Agree with this one

I am not sure what the question is. Are you upset because rules seem to favor the offense now like the defensless ploayer or horsecollar rule? if thats the case there are multiple studies and examples of former players having physical and phsycological problems after football.

If it is something else please elaborate

I didnt understand the question either.

How are kids soft now? Because people over the years have smartened up and put measures in to protect these athletes playing such a violent sport that causes permanent physical ailments if played long enough and in some cases psychological injuries.

Coaches shouldn't be putting their hands on their players, if they want to find a way to punish an athlete for their mistakes there are more modern and effective ways based on the way kids are now and their values.

 

[IHateMarkMay]

I think, from what I have seen with kids (I worked with kids in a before and after school program for a year) is that they can't stand losing. Kids these days get prizes for first and second and third and fourth place and so on. When I was young (not too long ago given I am only 23) First place got the trophy, second place got to go home with nothing. No whining, the only thing you could be mad at is that you didn't play your hardest. I don't agree with the fact that everybody wins all the time.

 

[Junkhead]

It happens when lawyers are given free reign.

 

[DCirishfan]

Mangino is also as quoted as telling a player if he dropped another pass "he'd send him back to St.Louis to get shot like his brother".

Coaching is much different than it was back during the 60's when the head coach was almost always a drill sargeant that whipped his players into shape, literally. Thats why Bobby Bowden has lost his touch and so has Joe Pa, they're on the field like angry grandpas and their players know it.

Times have changed, the coach is expected to not just coach but unfortunately in way too many cases be the father figure to a player. Like being a father you have to tell them when they're wrong, but you can't berate them to the point of physical abuse.

Well at least he told it like it is. If he didn't want to get capped like his bro he needed to play. Look all these things are taken out of context both in sports, politics, and life in general. I need to see video of the incident to offer incite other wise it is just sensationalism. I will say this the big man can flat out coach a football team.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

He was reportedly kicking a player for sleeping in class. Mangino is a thuggish fatass who I have no respect for. At least Bryant and Hayes won unlike this jerk.

 

[DCirishfan]

Dang, I would get kicked off for personal attacks for sayin those things!Lol. Football takes some thuggery like it or not 5 years ago Kansas football was a joke.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

There is a huge difference for what people do on the field and off the field. A coach can be rough and mean on the field, but once they get off the field he needs to have some sort of self-control.

 

[DCirishfan]

There is a huge difference for what people do on the field and off the field. A coach can be rough and mean on the field, but once they get off the field he needs to have some sort of self-control.

I agree for sure. But I am not going to just pretend like he is not a good coach because he is a jerk, they are not mutually exclusive.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Agree with this one

I am not sure what the question is. Are you upset because rules seem to favor the offense now like the defensless ploayer or horsecollar rule? if thats the case there are multiple studies and examples of former players having physical and phsycological problems after football.

If it is something else please elaborate

No. I am in favor of those rules that protect players. Football is rough enough. Although I think that holding penalties get called too often. A hold can be called every play if you want to be critical. Kinda gets annoying.

What I mean by soft is players ratting out there coaches for working them to hard.
Players getting upset if they get yelled at or screamed at, let alone touched by a coach.
Players complaining that the coach is unfair and there is no "family atmosphere".

I don't agree with RR breaking the rules. That was wrong. But its sad to see that his players are the ones telling on him. Do you think they care that its wrong? Or more so that they don't want to be worked hard?

Mangino may be a thug. May be a piece of shit? But as long as hes not punching players in the mouth and stomping them what does he do thats wrong? pushing a player? please. thats weak. Verbally attacking players? You think Holtz and the Bear didn't do that?

These kids are prima donnas. Bear Bryant would be sued and thrown in prison if he had to coach in todays world.

 

[AZDomer]

It's all in the intent! You can be physical in a teaching manner. If they're pissed at a player and lose it, that's completely different. Grabbing a facemask and hammering something home is fine w/ me...my kids or anyone elses. An attention getter is an attention getter!

 

[jason_h537]

No. I am in favor of those rules that protect players. Football is rough enough. Although I think that holding penalties get called too often. A hold can be called every play if you want to be critical. Kinda gets annoying.

What I mean by soft is players ratting out there coaches for working them to hard.
Players getting upset if they get yelled at or screamed at, let alone touched by a coach.
Players complaining that the coach is unfair and there is no "family atmosphere".

A coach should never, ever touch a player unless its a pat on the back. If i saw a coach grab my son you better believe we would have some words.

As for Michigan. Rich Rod is probably not the favorite guy of alot of the players especially if they committed to Carr. Its upto the coach to build a relationship with those kids. We have seen players die from being overworked so if they rat on him that Rich Rod is doing something wrong, that was an isolated incedent.

 

[IrishAlum1997]

"Son, how did missing that tackle make you feel? I know you are giving your best effort. Just give your best, or I'll have to put you in Time-Out."

If your kid can't handle getting grabbed by the face mask or the jersey when the coach sees a lack of effort or proper execution, don't put your kids in a competitive team sport after age 12. Take up biking. It's certainly not always appropriate, but it can make a point when used occasionally. Won't even take this down the political aisle (although maybe I just did).

 

[HoosierMP]

A coach should never, ever touch a player unless its a pat on the back. If i saw a coach grab my son you better believe we would have some words.

I remember Lou grabbing the facemasks of plenty of players when he was coaching...so please help me out here...Would you have had a talk with him if he would have done that to your kid? Lou had some of the greatest gifts a football coach can have: compassion, understanding, and dedication. He coached how he coached because he loved his players...it's the same reason parents discipline their kids; out of love...if the coach is going to be looked at as the "father figure", then sometimes he's going to have to discipline his players (or "kids")...and not all of us are going to like it or agree with it...Now i'm NOT saying that the coach should beat the snot out of the kids, but if you're looking for some sissy counseling measure and a gentle pat on the back after a TD gets called back for a silly holding penalty, then you're in the wrong sport, bud...

I really have to compare the whole situation/topic to my experiences...When I joined the Army, it was my previous experience in playing football that helped me understand that the discipline the Drill SGT's were instilling was a part of their job because they cared how young men and women developed as soldiers..it was their job to discipline everyone..They "break" ppl down so they can build them back up with the mindset needed to succeed...I loathed my Drill SGT's during my 18 weeks there...But come graduation, you realize how great they were and for alot of us, we wished we didn't have to graduate because we loved the environment we were in...Taht being said, I don't think it's a far reach (from my own personal experience) from Drill SGT to Football Coach...You're going to have to say things harshly...You're going to have to remind the players/troops who's in charge every now and then...and occassionally you're going to need to get thru to some who make repetitive, silly mistakes...There were literally 100's of times during the Weis era that I wish he would've grabbed the facemask of his O-Line to ask them what the heck they were doing!! Lou never would've tolerated drive killing penalties or unsportsmanlike conduct from his players...and all of his players KNEW it!

As for the whole Rich Rod/Michigan situation...There were plenty of ppl who were upset at his hiring to begin with...and that number has only grown...However, I wouldn't be surprised if the ones that ratted him out were ones that thought they had a starting job and had put in all the hard work, only to find out that they weren't starting and thus they got pissed...As for the situation at Kansas, anything short of video evidence is open to interpretation and is circumstantial at best...but i tend to side with Mangino, because the media would never, ever take words out of context coming from pissed off players, would they?? especially since Kansas was having a down year, after having had a taste of success? Mangino was doing his job as a successful coach and I guess K.U. has a choice to make...Stick with the guy who got them to the next level or sink back to being irrelevant.

As for the topic at hand, I know that if my kid gets yelled at by a coach or the coach grabs his facemask or jersey to get his attention, that the coach isn't doing so because he's a thug or a brute, but because he cares enough about A.) getting his attention and B.) Cares enough to discipline his players because he wants to see them succeed...and it isn't about just succeeding at the gameplan he's pieced together; it's about succeeding in life..That coach would be teaching my kid discipline he would not otherwise have unless he was on a football team.

Also, when it comes to the kids working out, practicing, and running in the heat, ALL coaches take extreme caution and care...What's often not mentioned about those sad cases is that the majority of the time, those players either had pre-existing conditions or were taking some sort of supplement (and taking it incorrectly, mind you)...and since a coach isn't a mind-reader or voodoo doctor, he's not able to identify who has pre-existing medical conditions or who is on supplements...AGAIN...these coaches are not the ruthless, heartless, cut-throat, Stalin-like dictators that media likes to make them out to be...if they really were like that, they sure as heck wouldn't be coaching.

The bottomline is this: if you don't want your kid getting yelled at or facing harsh criticisms then have your kid compete in chess tournaments, debates, or bake-off's...Like someone said ealier, have them get into the competitive world of biking...Surely don't let your child sign-up for the Army...Teach them that the world is full of sunshine and lollipops...but don't be surprised when they get out into the real world and are surpassed and (figuratively) eaten alive because they find out the hard way that not everyone gets a ribbon for trying or trophy for participating...if everyone was a winner for trying/participating, then ND would be stuck with CW as the coach...or even worse, ND would probably still have Davie still running the show.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Im not sure what you mean by being soft, being berated and the attempts by 1 man to break your spirit is not coaching. If you wan't to learn discipline that way then go to Prison or join the Military. Having a coach reach the point to where he puts his hands on a player because they did not execute a play correctly is not coaching, Mangino allegedly attacked his own player.


I dont even know what you're talking about, coaches have always yelled at kids. Even now. The difference is that they are not physically assaulting them or berating them in front of the team.

When I played football we had drills where the team would gather in a circle as the coach would call an individual player who screwed up in practice into the center of the circle, tell him to remove his helmet and lift his arms, and then call out a player to tackle him hard. If he lowered his arms, it would happen again until eventually he stopped.

That there isn't coaching, it didn't make anyone stronger or better as players because we still went 3-7 that season.

Agree. It seems if you are a good enough coach, there are better ways to motivate. But I've never been a DI college coach so I don't know that life.

A coach grabbed me by the facemask one time and I yanked myself away. He knew to never touch me again. It seemed to me he was showing his own frustration and ego and incompetence, and taking it out on an athlete. The guy was all about ego. I didn't like it when Holtz yanked one of his players by the facemask on national TV after a bonehead penalty. It was too much of a showboat move and over the top. I felt more bad for the kid than I did about his bonehead penalty. Maybe sometimes extremes are necessary, but I did not like seeing it.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

...As for the topic at hand, I know that if my kid gets yelled at by a coach or the coach grabs his facemask or jersey to get his attention, that the coach isn't doing so because he's a thug or a brute, but because he cares enough about A.) getting his attention and B.) Cares enough to discipline his players because he wants to see them succeed...and it isn't about just succeeding at the gameplan he's pieced together; it's about succeeding in life..That coach would be teaching my kid discipline he would not otherwise have unless he was on a football team..

I think that is incorrect. A good coach can bust his athletes' collective ass through a well thought out and disciplined program, while taking no shit from punks. It seems to me there is not a need to get physical or humiliate an athlete if you are running a quality program.

Being a brute does not mean you care. That sounds like a battered wife's excuse: He beats me because he loves me. Bullshit.

 

[HoosierMP]

I think that is incorrect. A good coach can bust his athletes' collective ass through a well thought out and disciplined program, while taking no shit from punks. It seems to me there is not a need to get physical or humiliate an athlete if you are running a quality program.

Being a brute does not mean you care. That sounds like a battered wife's excuse: He beats me because he loves me. Bullshit.

See...you're back to the "brute" philosophy...Are parents "brutes" because they spank their kids? No, that's their choice of discipline...is there a point when it crosses a line? Hell yes...Are Drill SGT's "brutes" because they use physical and psychological measures to get thru to recruits? No, they are trying to create unity amongst the troops and build up an individuals mindset that will only be a building block for success...You're trying to equate wife-beating to a coach who's disciplining his team and attempting to build-up mentally tough players...You're trying to equate one situation in which there is a certain type of love and level of respect (coaching) to another in which there is no love or respect (wife-beating).

That's why i related coaches to being a Drill SGT's...I really wish you would have read that freakin' novel i posted...They both have to run a tight ship...in both worlds, you're preparing young men to do battle (now one is just a tad more real, mind you)...but the mindset needs to be one in the same...if a player doesn't want to "go along with the program", then he does need to be reminded where he's at and why he's there...if he doesn't like where he's at or doesn't want to be there, then he becomes a liability in every sense...football players, like soldiers, must be willing to sacrifice whatever, whenever, for the good of the team...and if a player decides to screw over his own team due to his selfishness, then maybe a good attention grabber is what he needs...as for what discipline is necessary, that falls on the coach (and eventually the other players)...

But don't say in one breath that these coaches are "father figures" and then in the next complain how they discipline the kids...and the reverse is also true...don't say they're NOT "father figures", but expect the kids to be highly-disciplined; because who will be disciplining them? Themselves? Football coaches have an ethical obligation to make their players the best human beings they can possibly be...and some football coaches are lucky enough to have contractual obligations to make their players the best football players they can be...Things aren't always black and white when dealing with 18, 19, and 20 yrs old kids...but the one thing that is constant is that the coach will ALWAYS want to see his kids succeed...even if that means the occassional "tough love"...Now if you don't like that, or appreciate that, then maybe the gridiron isn't the right place for you...Just because you had a bad experience with some wanna-be Bear Bryant, doesn't mean that it doesn't work wonders for others...You think that Holtz's linemen from yester-year are sitting in some dark corner sucking their thumb because he grabbed their facemask and yelled at them? Or are they out in the world being leaders in their chosen professions because of how he coached and mentored them?

Just like a Drill SGT cares for his troops, so does a coach for his players...It's not even logical to compare the "tough love" they use to wife-beating...in fact, it's downright ludicrous and stupid.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

...Just like a Drill SGT cares for his troops, so does a coach for his players...It's not even logical to compare the "tough love" they use to wife-beating...in fact, it's downright ludicrous and stupid.

You have never coached have you. I hope not.

If you think "beaten wife syndrome" is cool, then I fear for anyone around you. "He beats me, therefore he loves me. I'm so lucky!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_person_syndrome

 

[Master Guns]

He was reportedly kicking a player for sleeping in class. Mangino is a thuggish fatass who I have no respect for. At least Bryant and Hayes won unlike this jerk.

We do that all the time in the Marine Corps (kick sleeping Marines asleep in class), but I saw Mangino's presser and that dude is a heart attack waiting to happen. He was weezing and short of breath every other word. I could not play for a guy whose nose is being crowded out by his obese cheeks. CW is heavy, but carries is weight well, facially that is.

 

[jason_h537]

I remember Lou grabbing the facemasks of plenty of players when he was coaching...so please help me out here...Would you have had a talk with him if he would have done that to your kid? Lou had some of the greatest gifts a football coach can have: compassion, understanding, and dedication. He coached how he coached because he loved his players...it's the same reason parents discipline their kids; out of love...if the coach is going to be looked at as the "father figure", then sometimes he's going to have to discipline his players (or "kids")...and not all of us are going to like it or agree with it...Now i'm NOT saying that the coach should beat the snot out of the kids, but if you're looking for some sissy counseling measure and a gentle pat on the back after a TD gets called back for a silly holding penalty, then you're in the wrong sport, bud...

Dude i am not talking about grabbing facemasks i am taklking about putting your hands on kids. Plain and simple there is a line you do not cross. Your not gonna get rough with a kid, slap, grab. If you need to get in his face thats another thing. Do not try to defend hittying a kid with grabbing his facemask. That was the original post when he said Woody Hayes. You are not going to punch my kid. If you think thats what makes a coach great then you got a problem. I am all for fire and brimstone but i dont want a coach who thinks football is bigger than life and death.

Helmet to Helmet hits, horsecollering, and defenseless player rules are put in for the safety of the players. If that makes them soft then sorry but most "old school" players are crippled, dead, or psychologically damaged.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

I don't think he means the coach hitting the kid when he is not in pads. Off the football field is one thing. But if a player fumbles 6 times during practice I don't see anything wrong with the coach shoving a player in the chest, smacking him in the helmet, grabbing his face mask..etc. Its a part of the game. Ive had it done to me countless times, but, I never made the same mistake twice.

Coaching is a fine line. Politics cannot be involved in it. Its a tough sport reserved for tough people. Only a certain kind of person can withstand college football. Its mentally and physically exhausting.

Now, I don't think a kid playing pee-wee football should be grabbed and pushed. Hes too young to understand why its happening. Hes looking at it more as a punishment rather then a "get your head on straight" action.

If my son was playing high school ball and the coach grabbed my sons face mask or shoved him off the field I wouldn't have a problem with it. as long as the reasoning was centered around making him better. If the coach was picking on him and doing this stuff to get laughs or whatever to humiliate him...that'd be a different story.