Academic Admissions at Notre Dame

[IrishAddiction]

First i want everyone to know that Notre Dame should always remain a top academic school, and should not let in idiot and felons.....my only question is why turn away good kids. ACT and SAT scores are all fine and dandy, but do they really test the character and work ethic of a student? No they do not.....we have raised the bar higher and higher, and eventually it will get to the point where many premier student athletes cannot even consider Notre Dame. Why was turning away Jonathan Baldwin, an amazing athlete in the class of 08, okay?....because of test scores. His GPA was high enough, and the thing that really impressed college coaches was his work ethic. Now he is starting at Pitt and playing against ND. Notre Dame should strive to be the BEST in everything we do, including athletics. Winning national championships is important, and we need the athletes to do it. Admissions needs to evaluate its own evaluation process. Opinions?

 

[jboxer562]

im a senior in high school, and applied to four schools for next fall, notre dame being my "reach" school. its not ridiculous because it is what it is, but its VERY difficult to get in here lol

 

[jboxer562]

but reguarding your point i agree one hundred percent. there should be no reason to be turned away as a primetime athlete just because of the test scores, which thankfully are starting to be looked at by colleges as less of a factor. i would have loved to have jonathan baldwin along w/ tate floyd and evans/walker

 

[gairish]

academic admissions to ND

academic admissions to ND

I am 56 yrs old and have met a lot of ND grads in my trips to South Bend and everywhere I have lived. I have never met one person who was an alum that wasnt a fine person filled with class and dignity. They have also been people who excelled after graduation. The school is obviously doing something right. Even the players I have met were on par with the students. There is no reason that letting marginal athletes in for a chance at this wonderful college experience should disturb this history. If they screw up then they should go but the school needs them if they want to get back to a National Power. As long as they stay sons of Notre Dame and respect what has come before them they should be able to play football and get the best education they can acheive. This is the issue that Notre Dame is struggling with because when Holtz was there alums were staring to dislike the image that was being projected. In todays college football landscape you cannt have it both ways. If a were an alum ( which I am not ) I would say yes to getting players who can help us win and let the Notre Dame experience take care of the rest.

 

[IrishAddiction]

I am 56 yrs old and have met a lot of ND grads in my trips to South Bend and everywhere I have lived. I have never met one person who was an alum that wasnt a fine person filled with class and dignity. They have also been people who excelled after graduation. The school is obviously doing something right. Even the players I have met were on par with the students. There is no reason that letting marginal athletes in for a chance at this wonderful college experience should disturb this history. If they screw up then they should go but the school needs them if they want to get back to a National Power. As long as they stay sons of Notre Dame and respect what has come before them they should be able to play football and get the best education they can acheive. This is the issue that Notre Dame is struggling with because when Holtz was there alums were staring to dislike the image that was being projected. In todays college football landscape you cannt have it both ways. If a were an alum ( which I am not ) I would say yes to getting players who can help us win and let the Notre Dame experience take care of the rest.

I believe that we can have it both ways. We should take kids who are good human beings, who participate in their community, but do not necessarily have the test scores to get in. Coaches set the example and discipline standards for the team, and breaking small rules leads to breaking bigger rules, therefore any problems can be taken care of before they get out of hand. Like you said in the end, the notre dame experience is what will take care of the rest.

 

[gairish]

admissions

admissions

Hey and one more thing what about filling the sidelines with all the former players? All these other schools do it and if ND did it it would look like a who's who of the history of college football. Can you imagine the jack up it would give these guys to see Lou's boys along with Ara's guys and even players from distant past who could stand down there with the team. ND should make a place for them to attend. It would make these other schools look Mickey Mouse compared to the history of ND. Someone should present this to the decision makers and if Charlie's not for it sit him down and tell him its got to be done.

 

[tgolden]

We do have former players who stand on the sidelines. At any given game this year, I've seen Derrick Mayes, Reggie Brooks, Chris Zorich, Joe Montana, Carlyle Holliday and Jeff Samardjiza. Most of the 88 team was on the sidelines for a good part of the Michigan game. I'm sure there were many others that I missed.

And as for test scores, admissions already let guys in with 18s on the ACT when the avg. for ND students is around 31. We already have plenty of football players filling up the generally easiest classes and majors (although there are certainly plenty who stick it out in harder classes). how much lower do you want to go? Also, I would bet there were other factors with Baldwin besides test scores. GPA doesn't tell you anything either if the guy is taking a super easy course load. I know plenty of guys come in with lower scores and work hard and graduate, but there is no point to bring in someone who is clearly not prepared to succeed at a school like Notre Dame. I'm not saying that is the case with Baldwin, I am just saying in general, I don't think ND should lower the standards any more.

 

[gairish]

admissions

admissions

I stand corrected on the guys on the sideline, NBC didnt show much of that. What else is new huh? As far as the admissions I agree with what you said if those are the facts. Some of these guys dont want to become Irish because even if they are in easier core classes they would still have to work harder. I get that and thanks for correcting me.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

im a senior in high school, and applied to four schools for next fall, notre dame being my "reach" school. its not ridiculous because it is what it is, but its VERY difficult to get in here lol

It's FAR easier to get in as a scholarship football player though...far far easier.

When the max on the SAT was 1600, the average for the football team was 960. Most students could not get in with less than 1200.

For those who remember SAT scores, sit and think about this for a minute...

 

[WaveDomer]

It's FAR easier to get in as a scholarship football player though...far far easier.

When the max on the SAT was 1600, the average for the football team was 960. Most students could not get in with less than 1200.

For those who remember SAT scores, sit and think about this for a minute...

I'm living proof of that. I scored just under 1200 and I'm a legacy. Should've practiced to become a longsnapper.

That was in 1992. Don't know how the SAT has changed since then.

 

[TheMightyQuinn10]

It's a double edged sword LMI....as a PHD myself its more about test scores,but yes ND should not have let him get away...I was lucky to get in with a 1425 I was told...

 

[ARALOU]

It is the same at Vanderbilt. The players, as general rule, do not score as high on entrance tests as the general student population.

 

[TheMightyQuinn10]

That was in 1992. Don't know how the SAT has changed since then.

Alot since 1998....

 

[KeepItCatholic]

take the felons and the idiots as long as they can play.. Let them be amazing and leave early for the draft!! Im kidding of course, well at least I think..lol. But I agree with looking into a persons work ethic and character, you can give someone knowledge, you can not teach heart. Find the kids who are willing to play and willing to study, is it that degrading to accept a student with a little smaller of a test score, as long as he works hard to the best of his ability?

 

[tankjeep]

take the felons and the idiots as long as they can play.. Let them be amazing and leave early for the draft!! Im kidding of course, well at least I think..lol. But I agree with looking into a persons work ethic and character, you can give someone knowledge, you can not teach heart. Find the kids who are willing to play and willing to study, is it that degrading to accept a student with a little smaller of a test score, as long as he works hard to the best of his ability?

that's usc's job....j/k.

it's funny this thread comes up, i was having a discussion with a person on another forum about nd's admission requirements as opposed to usc's (and i'm talking about student athletes).

my running joke, and the dude didn't get it was this....

what's the difference between nd players and usc players (besides winning)? the notre dame players got accepted to usc.

that's all i said, and i got hammered by a few guys for saying that.....i was kidding.

 

[AlumniHall98]

First i want everyone to know that Notre Dame should always remain a top academic school, and should not let in idiot and felons.....my only question is why turn away good kids. ACT and SAT scores are all fine and dandy, but do they really test the character and work ethic of a student? No they do not.....we have raised the bar higher and higher, and eventually it will get to the point where many premier student athletes cannot even consider Notre Dame. Why was turning away Jonathan Baldwin, an amazing athlete in the class of 08, okay?....because of test scores. His GPA was high enough, and the thing that really impressed college coaches was his work ethic. Now he is starting at Pitt and playing against ND. Notre Dame should strive to be the BEST in everything we do, including athletics. Winning national championships is important, and we need the athletes to do it. Admissions needs to evaluate its own evaluation process. Opinions?

I'm sorry, but isn't this a moot point?? I mean, if you believe the high school talent scouts and trust in the recruiting class rankings that they release every season, then is it not true that we ARE getting the best of the best, in terms of quality players, DESPITE the apparent academic rigors?? I mean, guys like Floyd, Clausen, Tate, hopefully Woods, these guys are blue chippers, and we ARE getting them. Yes, we might have lost a few good ones in there somewhere, but we continue to recruit well (in fact, this is one of the only reasons I can see that Weis is keeping his job one more year). So to say that we are turning good athletes away, seems really NOT to be the case.

Which is why Weis's tenure MUST be questioned - he HAS the talent, but hasn't been able to produce results.

 

[IrishAddiction]

I'm sorry, but isn't this a moot point?? I mean, if you believe the high school talent scouts and trust in the recruiting class rankings that they release every season, then is it not true that we ARE getting the best of the best, in terms of quality players, DESPITE the apparent academic rigors?? I mean, guys like Floyd, Clausen, Tate, hopefully Woods, these guys are blue chippers, and we ARE getting them. Yes, we might have lost a few good ones in there somewhere, but we continue to recruit well (in fact, this is one of the only reasons I can see that Weis is keeping his job one more year). So to say that we are turning good athletes away, seems really NOT to be the case.

Which is why Weis's tenure MUST be questioned - he HAS the talent, but hasn't been able to produce results.

I dont believe it is a moot point at all. The start of this seasons downward spiral was after what game??? The answer to that riddle is Pittsburgh.... and who made the key play to beat us in that game but a player who wanted to commit to us, but could not because of admissions. And as for players have lower test scores as compared to the rest of the student population, that is very normal at any college, but our average students are far above average on test scores. At ohio state, the star freshman phenom QB (pryor), is a kid who was called by one of my good friends who loves the team and actually attends the university, an "effing moron". He is always with a tutor around college. That is fine, because the kid is actually attending class and trying though. Notre Dames students are smarter, but shouldnt require the athletes, who work two different full time jobs in my opinion, to keep getting higher and higher test scores. The bar has kept raising in the admission office since the early 90s(remember when ND was tops in football), and soon many quality hard working athletes will not be able to reach it and attend notre dame. The admissions office needs adjustment, and then maybe we could get the premier coaches here when we offer them.(aka Meyer) I believe weis tenure should be questioned as well, but coaching is not the only factor in Notre Dames struggles on the football field.

 

[tko]

I dont believe it is a moot point at all. The start of this seasons downward spiral was after what game??? The answer to that riddle is Pittsburgh.... and who made the key play to beat us in that game but a player who wanted to commit to us, but could not because of admissions. And as for players have lower test scores as compared to the rest of the student population, that is very normal at any college, but our average students are far above average on test scores. At ohio state, the star freshman phenom QB (pryor), is a kid who was called by one of my good friends who loves the team and actually attends the university, an "effing moron". He is always with a tutor around college. That is fine, because the kid is actually attending class and trying though. Notre Dames students are smarter, but shouldnt require the athletes, who work two different full time jobs in my opinion, to keep getting higher and higher test scores. The bar has kept raising in the admission office since the early 90s(remember when ND was tops in football), and soon many quality hard working athletes will not be able to reach it and attend notre dame. The admissions office needs adjustment, and then maybe we could get the premier coaches here when we offer them.(aka Meyer) I believe weis tenure should be questioned as well, but coaching is not the only factor in Notre Dames struggles on the football field.

love the post but i think one of our own made the play to cost us against Pitt and his name is Harrison Smith.

 

[IrishAddiction]

love the post but i think one of our own made the play to cost us against Pitt and his name is Harrison Smith.

That penalty hurt too, but i definately think the baldwin play was just as huge in that game.

 

[tko]

That penalty hurt too, but i definately think the baldwin play was just as huge in that game.

man, just knock that pass down and we win that game. i think i'm still sick from that one.

 

[IrishAddiction]

yes i am pretty much still sick from the entire last half of the season. effing embarrassing. i expected at a minimum to win 8 games. instead i have to live with almost having a damn heart attack every saturday.

 

[tko]

yes i am pretty much still sick from the entire last half of the season. effing embarrassing. i expected at a minimum to win 8 games. instead i have to live with almost having a damn heart attack every saturday.

same boat my man. i am in such a bad mood after the games. i hope i don't have to watch charlie's signature playcalling next year. hopefully we get a proven "college" OC or an OC with some variety and creativity who can put our talented players in position to be successful.

 

[IrishGold]

LOWER THE STANDARDS Hell NO!

Why should Notre Dame follow the lead of the rest of society and lower the bar. We've already lowered standards in all areas of our culture and look at the result...someone or some institution has to keep expectations where they should be.

This crap about Baldwin can be said about 50-60 guys out there playing at other schools who wished they had an offer from the Irish. They didn't, so they went to their next choice. Get over it...there are only so many scholarships and so many spots on the team. Coaches make decisions on to whom they should offer and a lot has to do with the needs at that time. The result: they make mistakes. How many guys get offered at one position and become All-Americans at another position. Have you even looked at the graduation rates in the SEC, BIG 12 or PAC 10 ('cept for Cal & Stanford). You want to be lumped in with that garbage...go there.

Value the degree? Than value the standards.

 

[Honey Nut Irish]

im a senior in high school, and applied to four schools for next fall, notre dame being my "reach" school. its not ridiculous because it is what it is, but its VERY difficult to get in here lol

Best of luck to you!

I applied there last fall. I had a 3.9 GPA with a 2070 SAT (would have been a 1430 on the old SAT). I didn't get in. I'm not sure I would have gone anyway. I'm from CA and ND would be a long way from home, not to mention the cost.

So now I'm a general engineering major at Cal Poly-SLO, which is one of the best engineering schools here on the west coast. Not to mention our FCS football team probably could have beaten ND lol. Sadly we got knocked out of the playoffs last weekend. We had an off game after losing in OT against Wisconsin the week before (should have won that game too, but our kicker missed 3 pats, his only pat misses all year long).

 

[WaveDomer]

Best of luck to you!

I applied there last fall. I had a 3.9 GPA with a 2070 SAT (would have been a 1430 on the old SAT). I didn't get in.

Do you have a few felonies under your belt or something? WTF? My guess is that ND has 20 applicants for every vacant spot or something even higher. So they just take their pick. That's pretty crazy. What the heck do you have to do to get into Harvard these days? Perfect SAT, 4.0, and invent the water engine?

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I dont believe it is a moot point at all. ]

I'm Dizzy from reading all this high intellect heavyweight stuff (no sarcasm intended - I'm really impressed), but I think I agree with this post. I am going to have to read this thread again tomorrow. Holy brains Batman, you guys are some serious intelligent football ND posters.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I'm back. Re-ad this thread as I promised to myself because this topic has been a thought on my mind for a while now considering ND football. I am still not clear minded as I type (and I probably won't be for a while...), but I think each post speaks very well for itself. Very impressive.

And I post my stream of semi-consciousness on purpose.

Thing about "standards" that bothers me is that it can sometimes become a lazy elite badge of fake honor. Tony Rice proved that the "less than standard" can do well, with grace. (I don't know if he was a holy terror at school, but he sure looked good on TV...)

I knew a person that was "classified" with a disorder by psychological "experts" who prescribed drugs to "slow him down." Dude could scale a 20 ft. wall in no time flat, solve a physics problem in less time, and attract bees to poison ivey. But the "expert" psychological liberals thought something was wrong with him. I bet the guy invents a way for me to jump through the internet screen and hump Faline...

I have problems with high nosed thoughts. But that's my problem.

Oh well, I will always be a Du Lac follower. A rabbid one (not rabbit, not froggy, not bambi, well, maybe bambi dammit...)

 

[Irish Rogue]

LOWER THE STANDARDS Hell NO!

Why should Notre Dame follow the lead of the rest of society and lower the bar. We've already lowered standards in all areas of our culture and look at the result...someone or some institution has to keep expectations where they should be.

This crap about Baldwin can be said about 50-60 guys out there playing at other schools who wished they had an offer from the Irish. They didn't, so they went to their next choice. Get over it...there are only so many scholarships and so many spots on the team. Coaches make decisions on to whom they should offer and a lot has to do with the needs at that time. The result: they make mistakes. How many guys get offered at one position and become All-Americans at another position. Have you even looked at the graduation rates in the SEC, BIG 12 or PAC 10 ('cept for Cal & Stanford). You want to be lumped in with that garbage...go there.

Value the degree? Than value the standards.

Yeah and your going to continue to have Stanford like seasons 3-9, 6-6 etc.

 

[IrishAddiction]

Have you even looked at the graduation rates in the SEC, BIG 12 or PAC 10 ('cept for Cal & Stanford). You want to be lumped in with that garbage...go there.

Value the degree? Than value the standards.

Again i will say im not for letting felons and morons, like a person with a 9 on the ACT (Noel Devine). I want kids to go to our school that work hard and win....we have some good players no doubt, but not what is needed to win the national championship yet. If you consider those conferences garbage, please look to see what conferences have won national championships in all but 1 NC this decade. And if we really want to get championship coaches here(which will need to happen when charlie is fired, because eventually i believe he will be), we have to give them the ability to championship players. We just cannot do that right now if standards keep raising every year.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Yeah and your going to continue to have Stanford like seasons 3-9, 6-6 etc.

BS...

Our standards have not been raised since we won our last championship...

Don't use academics as an excuse. We have elite talent WITH our standards.