Recruiting Disconnect

[SteveM]

I want to put this recruitng thing front and center.

Many guys here note about what a great recruiter Charlie is and then SoCalDom posts a very insightful piece (thank you SCD) about the fate of ND's recruited players. And it's not good. A football team should operate on the Law of Large Numbers, out of 85 guys on scholarship, ND should have a fair number who can really play. If Charlie is an above average recruiter, he should have an above average success rate. Fair enough? So the deviation from the Law suggests 1 of 3 inferences.

1. The recruited players were not that good to begin with => Charlie can recruit, but he can't evaluate talent.
2. The recruited players were that good coming in, but they were not coached up => Charlie can recruit and he and his staff can evaluate talent but they can't coach guys up.
3. Charlie's recruiting, talent evaluation and coaching are splendiferous => Mark May has a collection of ND player voodoo dolls and he sticks pins in their body parts and brains every week.

Can someone tell me, Which is it?

Perseverating about my Perserveration again. Even with ND's supposedly sub-par recruiting classes, can anybody tell me if John Bunting's at North Carolina were better? Or Dave Wannstedt's at Pitt?

SteveM

P.S. "=>" is math for "Implies"

 

[Dacian_Irish]

I don't think you are patient enough. What do you want him to do Freshmans and Sophemores at every playmaking postion.

We should not be asking these questions this year. Lets wait until next year.

The problem with this post and a lot of your other posts is your using skewed data!

ESPN says we 23 seniors.. Um how many of those are walkons and how many of those were 2 star recruits? Quit bashing Charlie you are being unfair and also you are not realistic. Yeah we had a bad game here and there but if you don't see something special in this team you are delusional. What were Bradys stats his sophmore year? Our defense is finally at a point that we are starting to feel confident and they are YOUNG! We have great players and a great coaching staff!

One question for.... Are you the type of person that looks at the glass and thinks it is half empty?

They will succeed! Chill out don't you have better things to do than bash Weis!

 

[bert2834]

Option 3!!!!!

 

[SoCalDomer]

I have resolved that figuring out the Irish is above and beyond my figuring out.

Is prior year recruiting a problem? probably. Is failure to maximize young players' potential a problem? Probably. Have we seen odd playcalling last and this season? Sure.

How much and in what combination any of these factors are a part of the whole is what i cannot figure out.

I do believe though that on the defensive side we are seeing good progress, and it appears they are being coached up pretty well. Agains BC, the D held them to 10 points. That may not make the D top25 worthy, but its progress. Last week, prior to the last 8 minutes or so, they held Navy, who regularly avg'd 300 yds/game rushing, to around 150yds. That's pretty dominating even if it was only against Navy; you've got to take the positives when they give them.

The offense turned in their most dominating running game, again, even if it was against Navy. I think this team needs the confidence that comes from games like that.

Now whether the O, the D and the ST have progressed quick enough, or to the maximum amount possible, again, I don't know.

That's not to say I've given up, but I'm also not going to have a heart attack on Saturdays.

 

[SteveM]

Ventricular Fibs

Ventricular Fibs

...That's not to say I've given up, but I'm also not going to have a heart attack on Saturdays.

SCD,

Great. Then can I borrow your paddles?

SteveM

 

[Timugen]

One question for.... Are you the type of person that looks at the glass and thinks it is half empty?

The glass is most definitely half full...............of GHB-laced Kool-Aid.

 

[SoCalDomer]

SCD,

Great. Then can I borrow your paddles?

SteveM

sure, but they got alot of wear and tear during 2007. a new defib might be more reliable.

 

[SoCalDomer]

also, the more i thought about your orig question, I think the coaches are able to evaluate talent. I don't say that because of the recruiting rankings, but more because of the other teams recruiting the players who signed with ND and those who also recruited ND's 2009 current commits.

The coaches are going after and winning the battle against SEC teams, USC, OSU, Michigan, etc.

So I guess that means they may be developing more slowly than we would like. They do appear to be developing many underclassmen though, so I wonder if the problem is they didn't focus on development of the upperclassmen they did have enough the last two years, or whether the upperclassmen have met their ceiling.

 

[SoCalDomer]

This article talks about the development issue: BlueandGold.com

 

[phork]

also, the more i thought about your orig question, I think the coaches are able to evaluate talent. I don't say that because of the recruiting rankings, but more because of the other teams recruiting the players who signed with ND and those who also recruited ND's 2009 current commits.

The coaches are going after and winning the battle against SEC teams, USC, OSU, Michigan, etc.

So I guess that means they may be developing more slowly than we would like. They do appear to be developing many underclassmen though, so I wonder if the problem is they didn't focus on development of the upperclassmen they did have enough the last two years, or whether the upperclassmen have met their ceiling.

One thing though is that the elite of the elite are still picking other schools. We might be getting guys who in the opinion of said elite school might be "Meh, if we get him we get him".

Great article and it is spot on. Anything less than 10 wins and a BCS game is a failure.

 

[PADOMERNUT]

I have no problem with that article. I thought it was right on. I think next year is the make or break year for Weis. But can we leave it at that and quit creating useless thread after useless thread that just says the same damn thing???

 

[fitz_bu47]

AMEN!! Next year is the deciding year.

 

[SteveM]

Dismissively Obviating My Reason For Being

Dismissively Obviating My Reason For Being

I have no problem with that article. I thought it was right on. I think next year is the make or break year for Weis. But can we leave it at that and quit creating useless thread after useless thread that just says the same damn thing???

PADOMER,

Right. Great. Consigning the lot of us to miserable lives of omphaloskepsis till January 2010. Looks like I'll have to focus on some productive, but pedestrian activity instead.

Nothing like a dollop of restless ennui in my evening Côtes du Rhône. Thanks a lot.

SteveM

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

PADOMER,

Right. Great. Consigning the lot of us to miserable lives of omphaloskepsis till January 2010. Looks like I'll have to focus on some productive, but pedestrian activity instead.

Nothing like a dollop of restless ennui in my evening Côtes du Rhône. Thanks a lot.

SteveM

Unequivical jocosity!

I wonder if the navel observation is based on this past weekend's naval observation.

Lemme guess: When you not omphaloskepsising, you watching reruns of "Frazier."

 

[dre1919]

You and I see it like it is, SteveM. I think Charlie can recruit pretty well because he has the pro pedigree (to speak to the NFL bound), the Notre Dame experience to speak to those wanting Irish lore and the four Super Bowl rings to impress all who see them. But, I think where he fails is in two places.

One. He may be a good recruiter, but him and his staff are terrible at coaching up talent. Forget what happened in the first two seasons...those were Ty's players and were already past their freshman and sophomore seasons of growth before he got them. All you need to see for proof is looking at Jimmy Clausen and Armando Allen. They should be way ahead of where they are right now. Of course, a good example to the positive is Golden Tate and Michael Floyd. They are playing like they're special players in spite of the coaching staff...and that leads me to the second problem Charlie apparently has.

Two. Charlie is a poor talent evaluator. I said it from day one and I still say it. I have never drank the kool-aid about JC being this all world QB. I think Casey was the best of the Clausen's and that isn't saying a lot. Jimmy is without a doubt the worst #1 QB prospect I have ever seen. Tebow, Bradford, Stafford, McCoy...they are all better than he is now, and we're better as freshmen and sophomores as well. Sure, they have better skill position players and depth around them...but look at the decisions they make...look at their athletic gifts on display. There's just not much comparison. Don't even get me started on the ego driven, embarrassing national championships promise and limo at the college football HOF. That would have gotten him kicked from my program from day one.

Other programs are doing much, much more with their freshman and sophomores than we are. This comes down to poor preparation and a lack of good fundamentals. I believe a big problem is Charlie's ego. I really think he feels so superior to college coaches that he thinks he can just come in and teach these kids a couple things and they'll run circles around other schools. Well, that just isn't true. I know some of it is speculation, but there are just too many reports of him being an overly cocky SOB without even having a reason for it. Sure, he was good in the NFL. Well, this isn't the NFL pal. Here, you're just an average coach at best.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

This article talks about the development issue: BlueandGold.com

I started reading the article, then skimmed the rest.

COMPLETELY DISAGREE. HOGWASH.

Look here folks: THE CUPBOARD WAS BARE.

THIS IS A JUNIOR VARSITY COMPETING AGAINST SEMI PROS. GIVE THEM TIME TO GROW.

I would not start bitching about CW and co. until '10.

My biggest gripe about His Coachensy is his "take what the defense gives" style of offense. An offense CANNOT play on its heels. It needs to know exactly what it is going to do DESPITE the defensive formation. Best thing I have read (and saw with my own eyeballs) was that ND narrowed their playbook to 8 plays in the second half against Navy. I posted on the gameday forum that the Oline finally looked athletic and confident. You tend to get athletic and confident when you do the same shit over and over and over. Short passes. "Spontaneous" flairs - if "9 technique is coming, back can act like he miffed block on 9 then turn around and catch the flair. ND threw some quick backfield wides, which is OK, but...

(can of worms)

p.s. Another thing that gripes my ass about fandom is the focus on stats and records. ND individual records seem to be broken by INDIVIDUALS on either average or awful teams. Championship teams had athletes that played their role and took advantage when they got the call. How many ND records does Bettis hold? Did you see the video of Bettis that someone on here posted. Dayum.

Only record that counts is team record.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I think Charlie can recruit pretty well because he has the pro pedigree (to speak to the NFL bound), the Notre Dame experience to speak to those wanting Irish lore and the four Super Bowl rings to impress all who see them. But, I think where he fails is in two places...One. He may be a good recruiter, but him and his staff are terrible at coaching up talent.

He is a good recruiter. These coaches know how to coach. They know how to evaluate talent. I am telling you folks: quit drinking the sportswriter Kewlaid. (Can't believe I just used a cliche term...)
Defense all year has been the best I have seen since early Holtz. Special teams have improved. Did anyone watch the Naval game? They have a well practiced, few play offense. ND has a theoretical, "let's try this if they line up like that" offense.

And while I am standing on my sandbox, I will add that I am annoyed with the "good/bad "playcalling" crap, and I think Haywood got a bit of the shaft from posters. Any putz can "call a play". Haywood was doing well given the system that he was puppetted to call. Look at the team's point total this year compared to last year for Cristsake. (spelling intentional...)If anyone wants to truly blame Haywood, then allow him to install his own offensive system first.

He is calling plays under CWs playbook.

Another can of worms...

 

[SoCalDomer]

All you need to see for proof is looking at Jimmy Clausen and Armando Allen. They should be way ahead of where they are right now.

Based on your subjective observations you think Jimmy is behind the learning curve? Why don't you try to find something objective to base your opinions on. Compare Jimmy's sophmore stats with Brady Quinn's sophmore stats.

Of course, a good example to the positive is Golden Tate and Michael Floyd. They are playing like they're special players in spite of the coaching staff...

Interesting. So, you're saying Tate's progress is exclusively the product of his own efforts, even though prior to last year he never played WR? Compare his play from last year to this. I don;t think it is reasonable to conclude the coaches had zero impact on turning him into one of the best receivers we have.

Jimmy is without a doubt the worst #1 QB prospect I have ever seen.

and which recruiting service does Charlie Weis run/operate where Charlie Weis named him the #1 QB prospect? That "#1" rating you're referring to comes from the recruiting services, not Charlie Weis.

Other programs are doing much, much more with their freshman and sophomores than we are.

you mean the other teams that have a core of experienced seniors and junior starters surrounding the freshman and sophmores on those teams?

I know some of it is speculation

some? you're being too kind to yourself.

 

[irishmarine]

as for hinm being cocky and arrogant, he is from jersey. if you have ever met anyone from jersey they all seem that way. no offense jersey guys but its the truth. after you get to know them they are pretty laid back unless you talk about the yanks, giants or knicks

 

[SoCalDomer]

For those of you who think Charlie should be winning and dominating more, even though I think we all agree that nearly all the talent is weighted in the sophmore and Freshman classes, I offer you this historical comparison:

The article below recounts Miami and what it went through after receiving the 2nd harshest recrutiing penalties. The year immediately after the penalties, Miami didn't drop off. The year after that, still ok. Two years after the penalties is when the penalties hit. It took two more years after that before they started to pull things out.

Why? Because during the first two years after the recruiting limits, they still had Sr and Jr classes full of recruits. During the two years the recruiting limits were in effect, Miami still signed 5* and 4* players, just not as many. Quantity is as important as quality. It is when the two classes that were limited in quantity became Juniors and Seniors that Miami played terribly. Why? Because full classes of Juniors and Seniors are necessary to build a solid foundation for winning.

Now, I do not contend that this proves CW & staff are good at developing talent. Nor am I again arguing recruiting woes of the past explains everything. My only point is that last year and this year (when we have very few Jrs and Srs) is not the right time to judge development based on winning.

But I think the only way to objectively try and figure out the progress both Weis and team have made is to compare them to other teams that have gone through something similar.

Notes from the Geetar: Goin' Back to Miami

Goin' Back to Miami

My numbers may not be perfect, but they’re at least close…

When the NCAA penalized Miami in 1995 after the Pell Grant scandal and other illegal payments, they lost 24 scholarships over the next two years, knocking them down to 61 scholarships overall. That was the second harshest penalty the NCAA has ever levied after the SMU death penalty.

When Weis arrived, he inherited only 68 scholarship players. Now there are only eight scholarship players in the current senior class and 13 in the junior class. Had ND’s roster size been an NCAA penalty, it would have been the third harshest ever levied.

Except for Brady Quinn, the few players Miami was able to recruit were much better than those ND had in those two recruiting classes. Miami still attracted classes full of four- and five-star players who were recruited by other major programs, just not large classes of four- and five-star players.

The two classes preceding Weis' arrival lacked both quantity and quality, featuring few four- and five-star players. According to Tom Lemming in a South Bend Tribune article more than a year ago, “it looked like the staff at that time was resigned to battling Georgia Tech, Stanford, and Northwestern for players instead of going after the great ones.” Lemming also said, "The fact is that [these] last two classes were horrible and one more class like that would have been disastrous. Notre Dame would not have rebounded for years."

Butch Davis took the Miami program after the sanctions were levied and won eight games in each of his first two seasons. Then the scholarship reductions came home to roost, and Miami went 5-6 in Davis' third year, with the five wins against lowly teams.

The Hurricanes did not beat one team the caliber of the five Notre Dame has played so far this year. They started 1-4 in 1997, opening with a victory over Baylor (2-9 in 1997). They lost three in a row to Arizona State (9-3), Pittsburgh (6-6), and West Virginia (7-5). Then they were pummeled 47-0 by a good Florida State team (10-2). Miami rallied for three wins over poor teams - Boston College (4-7), Temple (3-8), and Arkansas State (2-9). Then it lost two of its last three, the losses to Virginia Tech (7-5) and Syracuse (9-4), the win over Rutgers (0-11).

Miami improved steadily in the subsequent seasons. It won nine games each of the next two years, contended for the championship at 11-1 in 2000 (Davis's last year), and won the championship in 2001 with the plethora of talent Davis left when he went to the Browns.

When it comes to his current junior and senior classes, Weis is in a similar situation to Davis’ third season. This isn’t the only reason the Irish are 0-5, but it’s a major factor. It’s reasonable to criticize Weis' management of such a young roster, but how many coaches ever had to deal with a roster so skewed to its freshman and sophomore classes?

So, Miami year 1 and 2 having limited recruiting (the freshman and sophmore classes) they did fine. Similar to CW's first two years, though CW won 9 and 10 games instead of Miami's 8 win seasons.

Miami year 3 and 4, when the limited number classes were Jrs and Srs, ended up with losing seasons both years. In Miami's 4th year, not a single win was against an opponent with a winning record. ND in year 3.... well 3-9 says it all. Year 4 (this year) looks likely ND will end with a winning record and a bowl berth. Looks like they are slightly ahead of where Miami was in year 4. But still pretty close as the wins have all been against programs with losing records, save Navy.

Let's hope history repeats itself and like Miami who rebounded in year 5 and 6, so do the Irish. But I think year 4 is historically not the year to judge based on what happened to Miami.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

DAYUM SoCal. I thought I was an ND fan...

Writer maybe not Time magazine worthy, but definitely a great ND historian and fan. Great post. Thanks.

 

[dre1919]

I realize Jimmy Clausen's numbers are close in comparison to where Brady Quinn's were at the same point in their careers. However, Brady Quinn was not the #1 rated QB coming out of high school and supposedly the Godsend at QB Clausen is supposed to be. Yes, I realize Charlie Weis doesn't create the ranking these players receive. However, you must understand that I'm rating Jimmy Clausen's performances and stats not against our former QB's like Quinn, but more against the other QB's (especially top rated ones) around the country. For example, when you put him next to Tebow or Bradford, the comparison is not even remotely close. The easy way out is to say "well, these people have seniors and juniors to help him out". That's fine, to a certain extent, however they still have to PLAY themselves and Jimmy Clausen's performances have been terrible in most cases. I have yet to see a dominating "Wow!" performance from him against a quality opponent. Quit making excuses for the kid in saying "He doesn't have the team the others do." We all understand that, but at some point, there must be personal accountability for one's play.

Yes, I do believe that Tate has grown into the position and learned to be a better wide receiver. I wouldn't be ignorant enough to say that he did it all on his own, I'm sure his position coach has made great strides in developing his talent. However, he's taken it and ran with it which is more a testament to his athletic gifts than his coaching...especially since he's moving to another position. Lots of players switch from one position to another, have great position coaches, and still suck at it. It really comes down to the player and their skill set whether they gel into it or not.

Coach Weis and his successes and failures really won't matter anyway when it comes right down to it. We can all sit around and say "Give them time, they're young!" and "Wait till next year!" until we're blue in the face. The simple truth is, currently Charlie Weis is being outcoached by men who are supposed to be inferior to him, those are obviously superior to him, and the product on the field stinks. Whether it's deserved or not, the administration will make a move to axe him within the next two seasons because he will deliver consistently mediocre results over that span and it won't be enough to quiet the rumbles. Believe what you want, but in my humble opinion, he is an overrated coach that has proven nothing on the college football level and only has his ego and four Super Bowl rings to cling to.

If we use the "individual has great talent around him to make him look better" argument like a lot of people like to do to defend Clausen, then perhaps Weis' ability is inflated having Tom Brady and the Patriots as his weapons. Would Weis have four Super Bowl rings if he was the offensive coordinator for the Miami Dolphins? Either way, I'll be excited to see who the next Irish coach will be. Hopefully, we get a winner next time.

 

[JeremyND07]

I agree! JC was the #1 recruit in the land. BC was the 14th ranked QB in the country! Just look at what Pryor is doing this year to see what a #1 recruit is suppose to look like when they are "young". JC may turn out to be great but right now he has not lived up to his #1 ranking by far!!!!

 

[SoCalDomer]

If we use the "individual has great talent around him to make him look better" argument like a lot of people like to do to defend Clausen, then perhaps Weis' ability is inflated having Tom Brady and the Patriots as his weapons.

Right, the Patriots kept paying CW a salary all those years even though he didn't do anything to help the team. It was all the players, they all became stars on their own without any coaching from the offensive coordinator. that makes sense.

i guess it's also true that all coaches who have weapons will always win, right? no, that's not true. coaches get fired every year because they have weapons but don't win.

Guys like Tom Brady and co, became stars under Bellichick and Weis and the other coaches. So to argue now, that they had all the stars, and therefore they won with those stars is incorrect. they made them stars by winning with them.

However, you must understand that I'm rating Jimmy Clausen's performances and stats not against our former QB's like Quinn, but more against the other QB's (especially top rated ones) around the country. For example, when you put him next to Tebow or Bradford, the comparison is not even remotely close.

then explain why that comparison is appropriate, other than you simply want Jimmy Clausen to play like Tebow, or someone else. Why is Tebow or Bradford's situation so close to Jimmy's that for Jimmy not to play like them, that means he is overated?

If you have an opinion, that's fine. But it is vitally important to explain your opinion or feeling so that others can understand it. Opinions based on facts and realities are the only way we can carry on a dialogue.

The easy way out is to say "well, these people have seniors and juniors to help him out". That's fine, to a certain extent, however they still have to PLAY themselves and Jimmy Clausen's performances have been terrible in most cases. I have yet to see a dominating "Wow!" performance from him against a quality opponent.

Did you read my post about Miami? In year 4, the year we are currently in, Miami did not have a single win over an opponent with a winning record. On what basis, other than desire, do you claim that Clausen and this ND team should be beating quality opponents with winning records, to the point where you say wow?

My point is historically, you're expecting it too early. Should they play better? sure. are they still making mistakes? sure. are those annoying? absolutely. But historically, expecting this team to be world beaters, this year, is misplaced.

Quit making excuses for the kid in saying "He doesn't have the team the others do." We all understand that, but at some point, there must be personal accountability for one's play.

assigning him blame for interceptions and bad decisions is one thing. concluding he is overrated becuase he's not fulfilling your blueprint for what he should be doing is something else.

I agree! JC was the #1 recruit in the land. BC was the 14th ranked QB in the country! Just look at what Pryor is doing this year to see what a #1 recruit is suppose to look like when they are "young". JC may turn out to be great but right now he has not lived up to his #1 ranking by far!!!!

I don't dispute that Jimmy has played poorly the last two games. In fact, the interception after the half in the UNC seems to be a turning point.

But you guys seem to imply that because Jimmy was the #1 recruit, he has to single handedly carry this team. Well, he's a sophmore and apparently not ready to do that.

Also, did Jimmy Clausen ask to be ranked #1? No! You guys expecting him to "live up to" his #1 ranking is a knock against the rating services, not Clausen.

The comparison between Clausen and Pryor is misplaced. Pryor has an established run game around him and is not being asked to throw the ball 30+ times per game. A run game takes pressure off the QB to have to make throws. Not having a run game allows the opponent to sit back and not have to defend the run, which is what happened at BC.

And as far as my reliance on having a team full of experienced and quality guys making the difference, that's not just my opinion; that's fact that I've backed up with proof.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Lawyer talk gets boring.

This team gonna kick some dick in the dick pretty soon. They already have.

 

[TheMightyQuinn10]

This team gonna kick some dick in the dick pretty soon. They already have.

lol

 

[dre1919]

You're kind of an amusing fellow, SoCalDomer. See, this is a forum board which means it's a place for discussion and opinion. I could go over to ESPN.com and collect the stats and compare Terelle Pryor, Jimmy Clausen, Sam Bradford and Tim Tebow's first years to try and show, from a fact based standpoint, why I say he's "overrated". But, I don't feel the need to do that for a couple of reasons (and one of them isn't "because I'm wrong"). The reason is I don't have to. Other people can go look at stats and break things down line by line if they really want to see the cold, hard numbers. But for me, the proof is in the pudding as they say. Look at the results. Bradford led a successful OU team as a Freshman. So did Tebow in split time with Leak. Pryor is doing it at Ohio State. What's Jimmy Clausen doing for us, other than turning the ball over?

It doesn't make any difference if Jimmy Clausen asked to be ranked #1 player coming out of high school or not. He was, and that's the burden he has to live with. Ron Pawlus probably didn't like being tabbed by Beano Cook to win multiple Heisman trophies when he got to South Bend either. People who think Charlie Weis is doing a good job point to his "stellar" and "highly ranked" recruiting classes and say "He's doing a great job!" despite the fact that his two BCS bowl appearances have been blowouts, we haven't beaten a legit highly ranked opponent at all, we still get destroyed by USC, and his overall record is eerily similar to Ty Willingham's through a roughly equal amount of games. Sorry, those are FACTS. So, in my humble opinion, you cannot cling to the excuse that CW brings in great and highly rated classes of talent then turn around and say "well, those rankings are misleading or overrated". Which are they? Is Jimmy Clausen the best possible QB that came out of high school his year or not? From where I sit on Saturday afternoons, I think he sucks. Not completely...he makes a nice throw now and then. But the best in the nation? No. Not by a long shot. Whether that's the rating services fault or not is irrelevant...but if we're going to agree the rankings are flawed, then let's throw out his rated classes and determine what type of coach Weis is without that weighting the argument.

If we agree to ignore whether Charlie Weis is a good recruiter or not, what else has he given us? A decided advantage because of his otherworldly offensive genius? Not really. Mike Leach is an offensive genius. So is Steve Spurrier. Weis' offenses lack creativity too much for me to label him a genius. He did take us to two BCS games with Ty Willingham's matured talent, but we got blown out of them and looked completely out of our league. We still get hammered by USC. We had possibly the worst season of Notre Dame football ever under his watch. We lost to Navy for the first time in nearly a half century. We get to hear great stories about his ego and his pre-game promises, which of course don't come true, and so he looks like an even bigger douche bag. Wow...I'm SOOO glad he's our coach.

 

[SoCalDomer]

The reason is I don't have to.

no you don't have to. but until you do, all you are spouting is unsubstantiated opinion.

a proposition/argument is wrong until accepted or proven true. I don't accept your proposition that the team around Bradford or Tebow is at all similar to the situation around Jimmy at ND. and since you won't prove it, then it's wrong.

you cannot cling to the excuse that CW brings in great and highly rated classes of talent then turn around and say "well, those rankings are misleading or overrated". Which are they? Is Jimmy Clausen the best possible QB that came out of high school his year or not?

I've never said the rankings were misleading. All I said was the rankings are not Charlie's or Jimmy's doing. The rankings of classes have actually proven pretty accurate over the years. What I mean by that is, teams that win NC's have top-10 recruiting classes multiple years in a row. They re-stock. That doesn't mean that everyone of their top recruits pans out. But by maximizing the number of top recruits, you increase the odds of having more top players than not.

Now, as far as the individual rankings of #1-300 best players, I am not saying they are incorrect or correct. But it does seem to me that what seperates players #1-25 is probably more subjective than objective.

From where I sit on Saturday afternoons, I think he sucks. Not completely...he makes a nice throw now and then. But the best in the nation? No. Not by a long shot.

It sounds to me like you don't understand what the recruit rankings are. Jimmy is/was not rated the #1 QB in college football. He was rated the #1 High school QB prospect coming out of HS that year. It doesn't mean he will be the best QB every year, anymore than being the #1 NFL draft pick means you'll win superbowls, MVPs, or even have a successful career.

Judging a player week in and week out is foolish. Judging a college player before he graduates is also foolish. The nature of college football is that it sometimes takes until a players' senior year before they finally pull it all together.

Mike Turkovich is one such example. He split time with Olsen at left guard last year and was suspect. He's proven to be a very solid starting left tackle this year. no one expected that level of play from him. I'm glad I didn't toss him on the trash heap his sophmore year.

"We had possibly the worst season of Notre Dame football ever under his watch. We lost to Navy for the first time in nearly a half century.

If you didn't see it coming, then maybe you don't follow ND football close enough.

We knew going into it that we were going to hit a low point in terms of personnel in year three," White said. “That's something we spoke about before Charlie was hired. It's very clear to see where Notre Dame is now and very clear for the next athletic director.” Kevin White

Pete Carroll also implied as much after his USC Trojans beat the Irish in Notre Dame Stadium last year, 38-0.

“Three years ago you could see it coming,” he said when asked in the post-game press conference when he noticed the Irish might struggle. “It’s just all about recruiting, if you’re able to restock. But that’s hard to recover from all of those losses of those experienced players. Those are two and three-year starters, maybe even a couple of four-year starters. That’s hard to overcome. But I know they’re working hard at it.”

The two classes preceding Weis' arrival lacked both quantity and quality, featuring few four- and five-star players. According to Tom Lemming in a South Bend Tribune article more than a year ago, “it looked like the staff at that time was resigned to battling Georgia Tech, Stanford, and Northwestern for players instead of going after the great ones.” Lemming also said, "The fact is that [these] last two classes were horrible and one more class like that would have been disastrous. Notre Dame would not have rebounded for years."

People who saw what happened under Willingham with recruiting saw it coming: rebuilding years. Now, whether ND had to play as bad last year or this year as they did/have is not on Willingham. But the fact that this program had next to no senior and Junior players last year and this year is something casual fans probably missed, and just expected ND to continue winning BCS bowls and NC despite the obvious holes in personnel.

Again, review my posting of how long Miami took to come out of a similar recruiting set back. It took them until year 5.

You and others may be right, Weis may not bring the program all the way back. But arguing that based on last year and this year is nonsensical.

 

[NDMontana]

If it takes Jimmy Clausen until his senior year to pull whatever skills he has together than that will be a huge disappointment. There have been plenty of sophomore and junior quarterbacks that have led their teams to BCS bowl games.

I'm not ready to label Clausen as a bust, though I have been disappointed in what I've seen so far. One of the things that pisses me off is his throws on timing patterns. There must be some sort of wide receiver read on those plays because, more than once, I've seen JC throw an out when the receiver was breaking down the field on a fly. The wide receivers could be reading the safeties, I don't know, but just because a route is a timing pattern doesn't mean that JC is excused for not using his eyes....he should be able to recognize when a receiver is not running the designed route. He also locks onto guys like a mother fucker. Shit, I know where the ball going the second it's snapped....that's not good.

 

[rogosIRISH77]

It's probably option 3, honestly, hahaha. In all seriousness, calm down. Do we really need to be answering these questions now. I think it would only be fair to wait until next season when Charlie's recruits are at least juniors. Outside of that, I think he is great at coaching guys up. Look at what he did with Brady Quinn and Jeff Samardzija. As far as evaluating talent, I'm not sure yet, so let's wait and see.