Daily Anti-CW Article

[NDinL.A.]

Here's your daily anti-CW article in the Chicago Tribune. I found it in SI's "Fannation". Yawn. I can't wait until ND is back on top, starting next year (hopefully! Please, God, I don't ask much; I just really want to shut these people up.)

Charlie Weis alienates Irish supporters -- chicagotribune.com

Again, yawn. CW is arrogant. Old news...

 

[Sureal]

Hack job and a horrific one at that. I just got done reading the comments posted after the story. Man there are some idiotic, I-get-my-information-from-sound-bite people out there.

 

[phork]

Oh yes the "Hopefully next year" optimism. What happens when next year never comes?

 

[NDinL.A.]

You want to fire him, start all over, new offensive scheme and prob new defensive schemes for the college players to learn and master on the fly, lose many if not all the major recruits CW brought to ND, and lose the only guy who has proven he can recruit at ND the past 15 years, and lose the guy who brought us 2 BCS games (and MILLIONS of $$$)??? He had 2 very good years, a bad year last year, and this year the team has improved majorly from last year's debacle but admittedly it is a mediocre year. He deserves next year. If the team sucks, then yes, he should be let go. But next year his recruits will be upperclassmen, and they will be very good.

Anybody who says we should fire him but doesn't think the program will take a huge step back is fooling themselves. This isn't the 70's. We lose CW now, and everything I said in the 1st sentence is what we'll have to go through. This ain't Alabama where you can get JUCO's and guys who can outrun cop cars to come in and fix things right away. It will take time and a couple more years of futility if he we fire him now. And who do you think will come here Phork? Gruden? Please. Leach? Dream on.

Weis goes, and just be prepared for mediocrity next year again while the kids get acclimated to the new systems and coaches. If we suck next year (I don't think we will at all), the I'll be the first in line saying that he has to go. Until then, I see progress, and we must stay the course. There's no one better trying to come here and coach where you aren't allowed to get the players you need to compete right away...

EDIT: I will say this, and I agree with JeremyND: Always saying 'wait 'til next year sucks, and it makes me fell like a wuss...

 

[dre1919]

Yeah, I'd actually like to fire him. To me, his record is too close to Willingham's to be anything special (and Willingham is a very average coach). His back to back BCS bowl appearances mean nothing to me if we get blown out and look like we don't even belong. I'd rather go to the New Orleans Bowl or something as bottom of the rung as that as long as we win it. Better that than becoming comic fodder because we embarrass ourselves on a national stage.

The recruiting is nice, but to be honest, it's not like Weis is the only person in college football who can recruit. Look at Nick Saban. He can recruit just fine, and his team is also number one in the country and poised for a national championship appearance (given they get past Florida in the SEC championship game). Pete Carroll can recruit too. I seriously think we need the best COLLEGE coach we can get...someone with experience as a head coach and a top flight recruiter who can take the program to the next level. If it means once again tearing things down to the ground, so be it. The Notre Dame football program has decayed so much for so long that these temporary fixes aren't cutting it anymore. We need a complete overhaul with the RIGHT person at the controls. No more "maybes" like Willingham, O'Leary, Davie, Weis...we need a homerun hire. Someone who will come in, install a proven offensive and defensive scheme that WORKS consistently. Someone who can recruit, someone who understands how to raise up kids into young men and someone who can work around the stringent academic requirements Notre Dame has (and should definitely keep).

To me, the argument really has less to do with whether Weis is a "good coach" or even the right man for the job. The real question is...is he the best we could do? Really? The best coach the grand and storied program of Notre Dame can hire is Charlie Weis? Wow. That speaks volumes about who we are and where our standards have fallen. Sure, a lot of coaches shy away from the pressure cooker that the Golden Dome is these days but certainly someone of the elite would take the challenge on for the right amount of money. And who's got more money to throw at a coach than ND?

Fire Weis. Quit playing...bring in the real guy to get it done and let's get started. We have a lot of work to do.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Who would that be??? Need names, or else you're just talking out your you-know-what. Because right now, you start all over and you get a.........well, another 'maybe' guy. To say we'd get any coach we want would be foolish, so you're stuck with the exact guy you don't want. So therefore, firing CW doesn't make sense by your standards, unless you give me a name we can definitely get.

As for your recruiting counterargument, sorry, NOT evryone can recruit at ND. Dismissing CW's recruiting efforts is ignorant. Bringing Satan into the argument and saying that 'he can recruit, so why can't we' is also shortsighted. Of course he can recruit at Alabama---it's called NO RESTRICTIONS. He's had 5 freshmen kicked out of school already!!!!! And Pete Carroll has the exact same lack-of-restrictions. They can recruit anybody they want. This isn't the 70's anymore! We are in a new era. You have to realize that. "We are ND and I want a NC!!!" just doesn't cut it. It takes time. CW's recruiting is putting us closer to it. To start all over with a maybe guy, well, that doesn't cut it either...

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

Who would that be??? Need names, or else you're just talking out your you-know-what. Because right now, you start all over and you get a.........well, another 'maybe' guy. To say we'd get any coach we want would be foolish, so you're stuck with the exact guy you don't want. So therefore, firing CW doesn't make sense by your standards, unless you give me a name we can definitely get.

As for your recruiting counterargument, sorry, NOT evryone can recruit at ND. Dismissing CW's recruiting efforts is ignorant. Bringing Satan into the argument and saying that 'he can recruit, so why can't we' is also shortsighted. Of course he can recruit at Alabama---it's called NO RESTRICTIONS. He's had 5 freshmen kicked out of school already!!!!! And Pete Carroll has the exact same lack-of-restrictions. They can recruit anybody they want. This isn't the 70's anymore! We are in a new era. You have to realize that. "We are ND and I want a NC!!!" just doesn't cut it. It takes time. CW's recruiting is putting us closer to it. To start all over with a maybe guy, well, that doesn't cut it either...

I agree with you 100%!!! You can't overlook the recruiting Coach Weis has put in. We are getting there. Next year is going to be much, much better and 2007 and parts of 2008 will be a distant memory. You can't expect to rebuild a program quickly if you don't have the luxury of recruiting anyone you want out of high school while also pulling from the more experienced JUCO ranks.

Next year, Weis' players will be upperclassmen and the level of talent in the freshman and sophomore classes will be off the charts. Michael Floyd after a full off season and summer? Forget about it. Kid will be a bigger stud than he is now. Cierre Wood will play as a Frosh, mark my words. Golden Tate as a Junior will be awesome. Brian Smith, Ian Williams, Darrin Walls, and Harrison Smith as juniors along with guys like Ethan Johnson as sophs and studs like Tyler Stockton as Freshmen will solidify our defense.

If Coach Weis had the luxury to go to junior colleges and bring in some O and D linemen, we would be 7-2 or 8-1 this year at least and 2007 wouldn't have been the debacle that it was. The JUCO players are the best cure for lack of experience and ND is not allowed to use that resource. You cannot compare ND recruiting to places like Bama. It is just not the same thing.

Stay the course and Coach Weis will get it done.

GO IRISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[dre1919]

I'm not talking out of my ass. Notre Dame needs the best possible coach it can get under any circumstances. This is not opinion, this is FACT. As it stands right now, Charlie Weis is not that man. For example, if you want names, I would suggest going after various people for various reasons:

Mike Leach, Texas Tech. Why? Because regardless of what you think about Tech, no one does more statistically with less than Leach. Every year he created an off the chart offense using under the radar talent. Imagine if he had truly unlimited recruiting resources.

Rich Rodriguez, WV/Michigan. Why? He's a former Notre Damer, and we should have pursued him before WV let him go. He runs an exciting offense (when he has the personnel for it) and has consistently had the Mountaineers atop the polls. He will turn Michigan around.

Les Miles, LSU. Why? Tough, savvy coach with a knack for coaching great defenses. Already has one NC, and has proven that he is a top recruiter and can win big games. His team dismantled ours in the Sugar Bowl.

Nick Saban, Alabama. Why? A proven winner with a NC already under his belt. Plus, not only is he a good recruiter, he also is a master at turning programs around in short periods of time.

Mike Belotti, Oregon. Why? He runs an exciting, modern offense and has successfully brought the Ducks up as one of the premier programs in the PAC-10. His teams are consistently ranked, recruit well and perform well in big games against ranked opponents.

Mack Brown, Texas. Why? He already has a NC and has proven that he not only recruits well, but that he can handle winning big games against ranked opponents. He also knows what it's like to deal with an enormous and rabid fanbase.

Steve Spurrier, South Carolina. Why? He's freakin' Steve Spurrier...one of the most accomplished and recognizable coaches in college football. Surely we can lure him away from the tremendous excitement that is South Carolina football. I'd love to see the Fun N' Gun offense tearing up the turf at Notre Dame stadium. Plus, what a draw that'd be...The 'Ol Ball Coach and the Golden Dome...together.


Any of these individuals would be an enormous upgrade from Charlie Weis, and I believe for the right price, any of them could be coaxed into coming to Notre Dame. Some would be tougher to get than other obviously, but as a "wish list", these coaches could make a dramatic impact in our football fortunes. I'm not dismissing CW's recruiting efforts, I'm simply saying that he is not the only person who could come in and bring major talent to ND. Sure, Davie and Willingham didn't do such a great job of recruiting...but I believe that has more to do with them being poor recruiters than Notre Dame's lack of draw.

Oh, and I realize exactly what decade it is. That is the very reason we need to innovate and begin to think toward making the right pitch to the right coach, and rebuilding this program into a 21st century college football program because sitting back and saying "Well, we're Notre Dame so people should be falling over themselves to come here" is ridiculous. Not to mention, we have set ourselves up for failure in that we heap unrealistic expectations on coaches and are quick to give them the axe when those expectations are not fulfilled. Now, before you jump in and say "But you want to do the same thing to Charlie!" understand...I was never a fan of hiring him in the first place. Had it been up to me, I would have hired a MUCH better coach than him to begin with and not even been in this position.

 

[Sureal]

dre1919,

What type of player do you want playing for ND?

 

[NDinL.A.]

Wow, ummm where to begin?

*Les Miles turned down his friggin alma mater (Mich), and you think he's gonna leave LSU, where he can recruit anyone, for ND? Keep Dreaming.

*DickRod: Biggest snake around. Will leave your program in a second for greener pastures. Just hired by Mich, and you think he'll leave that fast? He'd leave us just as fast. Horrible suggestion. Keep dreaming.

* Mike Leach - it's already been hashed and rehashed, he ain't coming to ND.

* Nick Satan - Ummmm, he just got hired, he gets any recruit he wants, and he already has a NC contender, and you think he will come??? Are you for real? That's what i mean when I say talking out your ass. Keep dreaming.

* Steve Spurrier - He already said he ain't leaving SC. Besides, he's all about getting the best athletes, and they don't qualify for ND. Keep dreaming.

* Mack Brown - Why would he leave Texas????? Again, are you serious?

* Mike Belotti - He ain't leaving Oregon. He loves the lifestyle there. Already turned down UCLA and USC. Keep dreaming.

***You forgot to mention Pete Carroll, Vince Lombardi, and Bear Bryant.

**** You must work for the Disney Make-A-Wish Foundation, because your list is a wish list, and not one of those guys would even THINK about coming here, with the exception of maybe, maybe a Mike Leach. So you just proved my point. You're going to get a 'maybe' guy, and most likely a guy who can't recruit like CW. You say you didn't agree with the CW hire back then. Well guess what brother: NOBODY GREAT WANTED THE JOB THEN EITHER!!! We tried to get the 'name' guys, and they all said no.

Wait a year, make a decision then. We're going in the right direction. With your plan, we'll go straight south.

 

[dre1919]

Sureal - Whatever player allows us the best chance to win. If all we're going after is a select group of upstanding, super students in the classroom that drive their mother's to church on Sunday, then let's go become something like an Ivy league school and get the hell outta Division One football.

NDinL.A. - First of all, my list is totally hypothetical based upon the top talents out there in college coaching...it's irrelevant to me if they would actually come or not. That is why I purposefully didn't put Pete Carroll or Bob Stoops, as I know there is absolutely no way they're going anywhere. These other guys? "Probably not" ranging to "hell no" but it's worthwhile to mention them as possibilities because for the right situation and money, anything is possible. It's also a measuring stick as to type of people I'm talking about we should be entertaining and interviewing, not these "middle of the road" and "maybe" guys.

Besides, several of those guys cast in a negative light is your opinion. Hell yes I'd rather have Rich Rod than Weis. Sorry, that's just where you and I disagree. Saban? Same thing partner. I'm talking about building a dominant, winning program and not building the most family friendly, cute and fuzzy program where everyone speaks politely and the coach grows as old as JoePa on the sidelines. I'm talking about right now, and for the immediate future. Sure, someone like Saban would be a threat to jump ship. So what? If he got the program back on it's feet, won a NC and then moved on? I'd take that deal. 'Bama did too and I highly doubt they're complaining right now. So the next guy comes in and inherits a program that is A. Not torn down to a ridiculous level, B. One that is suddenly relevant again, and C. Has a present to finally build a future on.

Fire Weis.

 

[goldandblue]

I think if I could pick a coach to take Charlies place I'd pick John Gruden from Tampa Bay. He know's what Irish football is all about and I think he is a very motivational coach.

Not that I want Charlie Fired I just think Gruden could do well in the NCAA.

 

[Sureal]

Sureal - Whatever player allows us the best chance to win. If all we're going after is a select group of upstanding, super students in the classroom that drive their mother's to church on Sunday, then let's go become something like an Ivy league school and get the hell outta Division One football.

Well this is the reason that I rooted for ND in the 80's and not Oklahoma/Miami.

Will there be consistant 8 5-star athletes being recruited? No. Why? Admissions. Do you think other coaches would be able to deal with what the coach of ND deal with? Can't recruit every 5 star because they might not get admitted. Can't offer them. Can't do it.

I'm not saying that I don't want to see ND win, but to sell your soul for a NC? What makes ND any different from any other school?

Do I think Weis is the perfect coach? No.

Do I think Weis should be guarded from criticism? No.


Am I blind to what needs to be improved? By no means but ND isn't the plush job like it used to be. If you fire him now not everyone will be beating down the doors to be the head coach of ND. That's just the way it is.

Right now we wait. Next year if we see mediocrity (spelling) we start collecting the firewood and measure out the stake. He's outta here. Personally I'm EXPECTING at least 10 wins. If not I'm NDOM Jr.


I understand what you're saying but that argument of firing him now doesn't stick with me.

 

[dre1919]

I agree, Gruden would be a nice selection as well. Even though he isn't an established college coach, he does have lots of head coaching experience as a Superbowl ring. He's young, appreciates the Irish, and could be a great long term hire. They tried to entice him before when he was with the Raiders, but it didn't happen. Would be nice to go back with an offer he couldn't refuse.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Sureal - Whatever player allows us the best chance to win. If all we're going after is a select group of upstanding, super students in the classroom that drive their mother's to church on Sunday, then let's go become something like an Ivy league school and get the hell outta Division One football.

NDinL.A. - First of all, my list is totally hypothetical based upon the top talents out there in college coaching...it's irrelevant to me if they would actually come or not. That is why I purposefully didn't put Pete Carroll or Bob Stoops, as I know there is absolutely no way they're going anywhere. These other guys? "Probably not" ranging to "hell no" but it's worthwhile to mention them as possibilities because for the right situation and money, anything is possible. It's also a measuring stick as to type of people I'm talking about we should be entertaining and interviewing, not these "middle of the road" and "maybe" guys.

Besides, several of those guys cast in a negative light is your opinion. Hell yes I'd rather have Rich Rod than Weis. Sorry, that's just where you and I disagree. Saban? Same thing partner. I'm talking about building a dominant, winning program and not building the most family friendly, cute and fuzzy program where everyone speaks politely and the coach grows as old as JoePa on the sidelines. I'm talking about right now, and for the immediate future. Sure, someone like Saban would be a threat to jump ship. So what? If he got the program back on it's feet, won a NC and then moved on? I'd take that deal. 'Bama did too and I highly doubt they're complaining right now. So the next guy comes in and inherits a program that is A. Not torn down to a ridiculous level, B. One that is suddenly relevant again, and C. Has a present to finally build a future on.

Fire Weis.

Keep dreaming partner, keep dreaming. I'll say this again as politely as possible: YOU ARE NOT FACING REALITY!!! If we fire Weis, those guys, Satan, DickRod, AIN'T COMING!!! It's just not happening buddy. So yeah, you can fire Weis, but why deal in hypotheticals that have zero chance of happening. A guy like Saban, or Gruden, or DickRod might be a huge upgrade, but they ain't coming. You think Satan would come here even if we offered all this money? Why? He has everything he needs at Bama, things we can't offer (i.e. players that can outrun cop cars), so why would he come here when he'll have to struggle to build it. It makes no sense. Those guys ain't coming.

Again, you're plan sounds great, but my weekend soccer team would be great also if David Beckham was gonna be on my team. But guess what, he ain't coming, and neither are your coaches. Deal in reality. Give me a plan that can actually work, and I'm with you. But your plan wouldn't work, and we'd end up with another guy like CW but without the recruiting. We stay the course a year and reassess, and we'll be fine.

Oh, and CW and Ty aren't in the same league, simply because of recruiting. There's light at the end of the tunnel, even if you don't see it. CW needs to show us more, and I think next year he will. He better, or I'll be first in line to say C-ya...

 

[dre1919]

Well this is the reason that I rooted for ND in the 80's and not Oklahoma/Miami.

Will there be consistant 8 5-star athletes being recruited? No. Why? Admissions. Do you think other coaches would be able to deal with what the coach of ND deal with? Can't recruit every 5 star because they might not get admitted. Can't offer them. Can't do it.

I'm not saying that I don't want to see ND win, but to sell your soul for a NC? What makes ND any different from any other school? Do I think Weis is the perfect coach? By no means but ND isn't the plush job like it used to be. If you fire him now not everyone will be beating down the doors to be the head coach of ND. That's just the way it is.

I understand watch you're saying but that argument doesn't stick with me.

Yeah but I'm not interested in upholding some holier than thou attitude about Notre Dame. Actually, I think it's a bit hypocritical to step back and say (in a snooty voice) "Our university is so much better because we do not allow thugs and hooligans into our midst." So what? That's great, but that also means that Notre Dame is then caught in a very difficult situation.

Like it or not, some of the best athletes in the country are not the best students. That's just a hard reality. Well, since Notre Dame has standards for academics other universities do not adhere to...such as GPA, entrance requirements, no JUCO transfers, no criminals, etc. it puts them at a decided disadvantage. Complicating matters are the Irish faithful that demand National Championships and winning seasons. You cannot have it all...you can't have a pristine program of 4.0 student athletes who volunteer at the local shelter and go out and win football games against anybody on Saturday. Sorry, there has to be some give.

Are we a football powerhouse? An academic powerhouse? An ethical powerhouse? Being all three back in the day flew, but not today in the changed landscape of college football. Look at Oklahoma. Year in and year out, they are one of the best teams in college football yet they usually have a very low graduation rate and average student athlete GPA. They made a choice. They want to be good at football, so they said "This is what we'll allow". The same thing goes for Miami, Alabama...the list goes on. So, the question then becomes, what do YOU want Notre Dame to be? Me? I want it to be a football powerhouse. I don't really care if we have a super high education standard (good is enough, their level is a bit on the ridiculous side for fielding a Division One team. Might as well be Yale or Harvard.) I also am not concerned with the ethical "we don't want thugs" approach. Nobody "wants" athletes that are thugs, but everyone wants talent and sometimes those two go hand in hand (sad but true).

So, there it is in black and white really: I say we cannot, as a university and division one college football team field both a super academic, super goodie goodie, super athletic football team every year and expect to beat the USC's, Texas', Oklahoma's and others of the football world. It's just asking way to much to be realistic in this day and age.

NDinL.A. - OK. Here is a name that would come here. Houston Nutt. Much better coach, if the money was right, would certainly come in. Want another? Paul Johnson. Guy made Navy an amazing team and it's freakin' Navy (no offense to the servicemen, just...seriously...it's Navy). Another? Gary Crowton. Another? Norm Chow. How about June Jones? Phillip Fulmer (has won a NC and recruited well, last couple seasons notwithstanding).

 

[Sureal]

Now you do understand that this is the same argument Indiana Basketball had correct? Where is that program now? The administration won't stand for it. You'll end up at ground zero again. Starting all over. What you are asking now is that the admissions be lowered to allow players to get in.

Honestly I think I started off wrong in regards to the discussion. This has nothing to do with the athletes. We are talking about the coach.

Charlie has been recruiting well anyways so the recruiting is really not an issue. You just won't be getting 20 5 stars every year. But ND has done well regardless in the last couple of years.

I think the question needs to be who do you think can manage well under the current circumstances in regards to admissions and the like?

 

[NDinL.A.]

dre1919 is not alone in that thought. I watch football with my ND buds and many of them scream the same thing at the TV. In short: "Bring the thugs to ND!!!" We definiutely are at a competitive disadvantage in that sense. Big time.

Which is why I keep arguing against firing Weis. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth dre1919. Great coaches know you need athletes to win, and it's tough to bring them in at ND. Charlie can. Other coaches don't want to come here because of that. It's reality. Let's see if Weis can still coach (1st 2 years were incredible) by giving him another year.

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

Sureal - Whatever player allows us the best chance to win. If all we're going after is a select group of upstanding, super students in the classroom that drive their mother's to church on Sunday, then let's go become something like an Ivy league school and get the hell outta Division One football.

NDinL.A. - First of all, my list is totally hypothetical based upon the top talents out there in college coaching...it's irrelevant to me if they would actually come or not. That is why I purposefully didn't put Pete Carroll or Bob Stoops, as I know there is absolutely no way they're going anywhere. These other guys? "Probably not" ranging to "hell no" but it's worthwhile to mention them as possibilities because for the right situation and money, anything is possible. It's also a measuring stick as to type of people I'm talking about we should be entertaining and interviewing, not these "middle of the road" and "maybe" guys.

Besides, several of those guys cast in a negative light is your opinion. Hell yes I'd rather have Rich Rod than Weis. Sorry, that's just where you and I disagree. Saban? Same thing partner. I'm talking about building a dominant, winning program and not building the most family friendly, cute and fuzzy program where everyone speaks politely and the coach grows as old as JoePa on the sidelines. I'm talking about right now, and for the immediate future. Sure, someone like Saban would be a threat to jump ship. So what? If he got the program back on it's feet, won a NC and then moved on? I'd take that deal. 'Bama did too and I highly doubt they're complaining right now. So the next guy comes in and inherits a program that is A. Not torn down to a ridiculous level, B. One that is suddenly relevant again, and C. Has a present to finally build a future on.

Fire Weis.

Dre - I respect your opinions, but, on a practical level, I respectfully disagree with you.

First of all, if we fire Coach Weis, the search for a coach would be a fairly lengthy process and we have all seen how detrimental a lag in coaching turnover can be for recruiting. Look what happened the first year when Coach Weis was busy with the Pats in the postseason. What would happen if there wasn't even a new coach in the pipeline? No coach, regardless of situation, is just going to drop what they are doing and come take over the program. There would be lengthy negotiations that could affect the foundation of recruiting prowess Coach Weis and his staff have developed if a coach was not inked immediately.

Secondly, in reference to the highlighted passage above, yes, we want the best athletes, but not at the expense of moral character or questionable behavior. I don't want just any athlete to come to ND. Back in '04 when the Irish came out to play SC in LA, I went to a brunch on the Friday before the game and Ty brought the whole team. I got to meet every single player on the roster. Each player shook my hand confidently, looked me in the eye, said yes sir and no sir and they could all form sentences and speak well and they were all gentlemen. That is the kind of player I want representing our University. I don't want to see a player who, although he has 4.2 speed, can only speak with a fifth grade vocabulary and has a criminal record a mile long. Is our whole team angels? Absolutely not. However, historically, Irish players are held to a higher standard than most other schools on and off campus. Also, look at our graduation rates. I would not want to sacrifice those qualities for the sake of a few more wins or even a national championship. I love seeing former Notre Dame guys on TV like Aaron Taylor or Jerome Bettis (to name two of many) and seeing what quality representatives they are for the University. That is more enduring to me than National Championships.

You saying that if that is what we want then we should just be like the Ivy League and get out of D1 football is not a valid point. Why are the two irrespective of one another? Why can't we be competitive AND have good, upstanding citizens who drive their mother's to church on Sunday?

I believe we are on the right path. Coach Weis will get this thing going. We are getting better and next year will show even more improvement.

Here's to crushing the Middies on Saturday!!! GO IRISH!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[dre1919]

Why can't we be competitive AND have good, upstanding citizens who drive their mother's to church on Sunday?

Because that's unrealistic of the current sports culture in America. I, like you, appreciate the fact that Notre Dame graduates it's players and they are intelligent, well spoken gentlemen. I'm sure their mother's do too. However, as a fan of Notre Dame athletics I want the most dominating team on the field each Saturday. Given that request, it's unrealistic in this day and age (in my humble opinion) to expect the two to coexist. I'm, sorry. I wish those with 4.2 speed always carried a 4.0 GPA and a squeaky clean police rap sheet, but unfortunately that isn't always the case.

Since I want to see Notre Dame athletics excel, I want the best possible athletes period. The GPA and entrance requirements are nice in theory, as is the refusal of JUCO transfers. But, when you self impose an unbalanced playing field in recruiting and then expect to beat out your competitors for the same recruits, that's ridiculous. Notre Dame will never be on the competitive level of Oklahoma, Texas, Ohio State and USC because of these reasons. Oh, we'll keep trotting out the dog and pony show for all to see and cling to our beliefs and standards. But, at the end of the day, we'll have no more national championships to claim to than the ones we have now. This isn't 1950 anymore. The world simply caught up to Notre Dame and we refuse to change. You can feel free to disagree with me all you want, but the results speak for themselves. 20 years since the last title gentlemen...how much has the world, and the college sports world, changed in 20 years? How much are we doing differently since then? Nothing is as inevitable as change and we refuse to.

As for "selling Notre Dame's soul for a NC", I don't see it that way. I'm simply saying pick your battles. If we want to be known as a high moral, high GPA school then let's drop the pretenses of competing for a NC and lump ourselves in with Stanford and the Ivy League Schools. Hell, maybe we can all play for a trophy ourselves or have ND join the Ivy League. But, thinking we're going to pull off both...multiple national titles in this day and age and being a moral and educational rock...is entirely too much to ask of any school and athletic department.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Hey OC Irish, we could be these guys:

ESPN - Florida State Seminoles suspend Taiwan Easterling, Bert Reed, Corey Surrency, Cameron Wade, Richard Goodman

Gotta love them Seminoles!!!

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

Because that's unrealistic of the current sports culture in America. as a fan of Notre Dame athletics I want the most dominating team on the field each Saturday. Given that request, it's unrealistic in this day and age (in my humble opinion) to expect the two to coexist.

Since I want to see Notre Dame athletics excel, I want the best possible athletes period. The GPA and entrance requirements are nice in theory, as is the refusal of JUCO transfers. But, when you self impose an unbalanced playing field in recruiting and then expect to beat out your competitors for the same recruits, that's ridiculous. Notre Dame will never be on the competitive level of Oklahoma, Texas, Ohio State and USC because of these reasons.

As for "selling Notre Dame's soul for a NC", I don't see it that way. I'm simply saying pick your battles. If we want to be known as a high moral, high GPA school then let's drop the pretenses of competing for a NC and lump ourselves in with Stanford and the Ivy League Schools. Hell, maybe we can all play for a trophy ourselves or have ND join the Ivy League. But, thinking we're going to pull off both...multiple national titles in this day and age and being a moral and educational rock...is entirely too much to ask of any school and athletic department.

I took out some of your previous post, but wanted to leave most of it in because you are referring to the athletic department in general with your argument and it is truly a non sequitur argument. You are obviously just talking about football and not athletics or the athletic department in general because ND is VERY competitive in sports like basketball, hockey, soccer - do the entrance standards hamper those sports and prevent us from competing on a national level? Your gripe is with football - plain and simple. Don't make it out to be a larger issue that we have to choose what we want to be. Athletics and academics can, and should, go hand in hand. Until the bar is raised and young athletes strive for excellence in each of those endeavors, the accepted norm will not change.

Coach Weis is bringing in top talent while preserving admissions requirements and a higher level of moral character. ND does not give out as many scholarship offers as other schools because they are more selective, so it will take more time to build depth and experience. Do you think Saban or Meyer would give a scholarship to a player like Mike Anello because he has busted his ass for three years? No f'ing way! They would go out and give it to one more speed burner or massive JUCO lineman. However, Coach Weis has routinely given scholarships to walk ons that have proven themselves and been dedicated to the program because he believes in rewarding hard work and dedication to the program.

Coach Weis understands there is a greater good in helping to mold young men into functioning, productive members of society. How many former Bama or Florida players who find themselves out of school or incarcerated ever hear from the coach that recruited them? Does Saban ever spend a moment of his day working on how he can graduate more players or help any of them improve in the classroom? I don't know, but the statistics indicate he does not spend much, if any.

If striving for excellence in the classroom and on the field while expecting this program to get back to National prominence is an unrealistic goal, then so be it. As Vince Lombardi once said, "The spirit, the will to win, and the will to EXCEL are the things that endure. These qualities are so much more important than the events that occur."

 

[realitycheck]

Why do Subway alumni care about academic standards? It's not like they have any affiliation to the school, so their reputation isn't at stake.

I could understand why ND alums wouldn't want bad students let into their university, it would reflect poorly upon their degree.

Also look at the HS grades/scores of Robert Hughes, Paddy Mullen, Ian Williams. ND's standards are higher than the average football powerhouse, but not by much

ND can recruit just as well as any other school in America, as evidenced by last year's #1 recruiting class. They simply need a coach who will step in and refine that talent

 

[SteveM]

Pardon Me For Perseverating

Pardon Me For Perseverating

Yeah but I'm not interested in upholding some holier than thou attitude about Notre Dame. Actually, I think it's a bit hypocritical to step back and say (in a snooty voice) "Our university is so much better because we do not allow thugs and hooligans into our midst." So what? That's great, but that also means that Notre Dame is then caught in a very difficult situation.

Like it or not, some of the best athletes in the country are not the best students. That's just a hard reality. Well, since Notre Dame has standards for academics other universities do not adhere to...such as GPA, entrance requirements, no JUCO transfers, no criminals, etc. it puts them at a decided disadvantage. Complicating matters are the Irish faithful that demand National Championships and winning seasons. You cannot have it all...you can't have a pristine program of 4.0 student athletes who volunteer at the local shelter and go out and win football games against anybody on Saturday. Sorry,
there has to be some give.

<snip><snip>

OK, let me say it again. This is a Red Herring!

As long as ND is losing to the BC's and the Navy's, the purity excuse is chickenshit.

Guys we have to beat those guys first before we talk purity as a competitive disadvantage. Because they are a lot more "disadvantaged" than ND is.

You can say that losing to USC highlights our disadvantages. Losing to BC and Navy only highlights that we stink.

SteveM</snip></snip>

 

[NDinL.A.]

OK, let me say it again. This is a Red Herring!

As long as ND is losing to the BC's and the Navy's, the purity excuse is chickenshit.

Guys we have to beat those guys first before we talk purity as a competitive disadvantage. Because they are a lot more "disadvantaged" than ND is.

You can say that losing to USC highlights our disadvantages. Losing to BC and Navy only highlights that we stink.
SteveM</snip></snip>

Can't really argue with that...

 

[NDMontana]

Can somebody post Notre Dame's admissions requirements?

I don't put a whole lot of stock into what your GPA is in high school. I don't put a whole lot of stock into civic activities or volunteer work. I graduated from high school with a 2.1....my lowest GPA in college has been 3.69. I did no volunteer work in high school yet I don't have a criminal record. I can't speak for the students or alumni of Notre Dame, though I do have a cousin that graduated from ND recently who espouses the same thinking that I do regarding the football team which is:

1. The football team is a tremendous source of revenue for Notre Dame.
2. Football is a proud tradition at the school--it needs to be maintained.
3. It's disappointing to the students and alumni when Notre Dame doesn't win.

I wouldn't be outraged if Notre Dame started admitting potential football players with high school GPAs of 2.8. Notre Dame football will eventually become irrelevant if the the current trend continues. Sure, they have fans like those of us on the board who, God willing, will be around for another 50 or so years but the question is how enthusiastic will we be. Will we continue to buy merchandise and pay to attend games or even watch games if the team hovers around .500 every year?

Notre Dame football is most often passed down from father to son. How will I sell my children on rooting for a team that is average at best? I'm not going to be purchasing Notre Dame apparel for my kids or taking them to games if they aren't ND fans.

Will ND football ever fade away? Probably not, but there is a risk that it will become a Northwestern type program: have a successful season every six years or so and then fade away again. Who gives a shit about Northwestern outside of their students and alumni....I know I don't.

 

[no.1IrishFan]

Who would that be??? Need names, or else you're just talking out your you-know-what. Because right now, you start all over and you get a.........well, another 'maybe' guy. To say we'd get any coach we want would be foolish, so you're stuck with the exact guy you don't want. So therefore, firing CW doesn't make sense by your standards, unless you give me a name we can definitely get.

As for your recruiting counterargument, sorry, NOT evryone can recruit at ND. Dismissing CW's recruiting efforts is ignorant. Bringing Satan into the argument and saying that 'he can recruit, so why can't we' is also shortsighted. Of course he can recruit at Alabama---it's called NO RESTRICTIONS. He's had 5 freshmen kicked out of school already!!!!! And Pete Carroll has the exact same lack-of-restrictions. They can recruit anybody they want. This isn't the 70's anymore! We are in a new era. You have to realize that. "We are ND and I want a NC!!!" just doesn't cut it. It takes time. CW's recruiting is putting us closer to it. To start all over with a maybe guy, well, that doesn't cut it either...

The reps train just made a stop in L.A. Chooo-Chooo!

 

[no.1IrishFan]

Oh shit it wont let me,well good post anyway.Ill get ya next time.