Stop being fair weather fans

[realitycheck]

ND gets into the BCS pretty much because other conferences have used their BCS allotments. IE 2 teams per conference. And because we are in the top12. There is no way we get in finishing lower than 12th, especially with the rise of Non-BCS conference teams.

Fairweather fans are a lot different than critical ones. I have a personal and emotional attachment to this team. Its great when your team wins, sucks when they lose. I understand that you will not win every game you play, however to say that next year will be the year is getting old.

A lot of ND students and alums are Cubs fans so the "next year is our year" mindset is familiar to them

 

[jjsccer2]

Alot of the stuff on this site is way too negative. Remember when everyone of you thought Ty was our savior. The SI cover after we beat MSU that year read "What a difference a coach makes." Well when things don't go the way you want them, you're suddenly "ruining" our program. Anything but a NC wouldn't satisfy most of you people on here.

 

[NDMontana]

Alot of the stuff on this site is way too negative. Remember when everyone of you thought Ty was our savior. The SI cover after we beat MSU that year read "What a difference a coach makes." Well when things don't go the way you want them, you're suddenly "ruining" our program. Anything but a NC wouldn't satisfy most of you people on here.

As one of the posters who has been critical, I can tell you that I'm not looking for an NC. I definitely don't want Charlie fired. I want Charlie to stay here and put together a Lou Holtz-esque run. But the reality, as it stands only 3 games into this season, is that we haven't seen significant improvement. I would feel better if the team showed a modicum of improvement. I would like to think that offense could be in the top 80 but we are in the 100's. I would like to see the o-line open enough holes to allow for 100 or more yards rushing per game (which isn't that difficult) but they are not doing that.

I wonder what the tone would be around here if Michigan hadn't fumbled so many times and beaten us (which it seems like they would have). We were opportunistic against Michigan, which is not a bad thing, but we didn't blow them out because of superior talent. Which leaves us with two games to base our progress on: 21-13 squeaker over SDSU and a 23-7 loss to MSU. I think yesterday was closer to what where we are really at: a young team that doesn't capitalize well or finish drives. Sans the Floyd fumble, Clausen's endzone interception and the associated momentum swing we may have won. But I'm still looking at our offensive rankings and it doesn't look good.

I think Charlie's biggest challenge is teaching this team how to win. It's a lot easier for a winning team to start losing than it is for a losing team to start winning. We'll see how it goes!

 

[NDinL.A.]

I wonder what the tone would be around here if Michigan hadn't fumbled so many times and beaten us (which it seems like they would have). We were opportunistic against Michigan, which is not a bad thing, but we didn't blow them out because of superior talent. Which leaves us with two games to base our progress on: 21-13 squeaker over SDSU and a 23-7 loss to MSU. I think yesterday was closer to what where we are really at: a young team that doesn't capitalize well or finish drives. Sans the Floyd fumble, Clausen's endzone interception and the associated momentum swing we may have won. But I'm still looking at our offensive rankings and it doesn't look good.

So let me get this straight: Michigan gift-wrapped the game for us, yet MSU 'pounded us', as you said in another thread, even though we gave them the same breaks Mich gave us. Again, you sound like a TROLL even though you claim not to be and you obviously know ND football. Sorry. You can't have it both ways. Which one is it? Did we gift-wrap the game for MSU, or did we beat Mich straight-up?

You see, the truth is MSU didn't kill us, we were down by 9 in the 4th with a chance to make it a one possession game. Our kicker missed his 2nd FG of the game, and MSU scored a late TD. We also fumbled near the goal line, and we had Kumara catch a TD only to get outmuscled in the end zone. Hardly a pounding bro. We left tons of points on the field. We lost, and I take it like a man. We didn't giftwrap the game, we just lost it. And Mich didn't giftwrap the game either...

 

[coachjohnson]

It's always bad to lose, especially to MSU, but don't think we gift wrapped the game either. We had our chances but just fell short. You made very good point NDinLA.

And for you doubters of CW, the main thing that I have noticed that he has done since he's been here is bring in good recruits. Willingham and Davie killed us during their tenure. Davie went after defensive guys and made the D strong when Willingham got here. So what did Willingham do, he recruited offense heavily, which in turn weakened our D. Weis got here with a good O and no D really. Weis recruited both sides of the ball and for the first time in years we have good athletes on both sides of the ball. Weis has done what needed to be done. We will return to prominence again, maybe not soon enough for some of you but we will return. It's not far away, so either get on board or get out. Pull for someone else or just keep out of it. No one likes it when the Irish lose, but I really don't think anyone needs to hear all the crap in the same week as a loss, especially from our own fans, we have enough doubters without our own turning on us.

 

[wahoo]

Weis has done a decent job getting recruits to come to ND but it hasn't translated to much success on the field. Until he can get the defense playing well, I don't think the team will win consistantly. The other area that continues to be a problem is the O Line.
This is ND!! We should not accept a mediocre season! You do not win 11 National Championships by accepting mediocrity. With the schedule ND has this year I would expect 9 wins at a minimum plus a bowl WIN! With the talent this team has anything less is unacceptable. Plus I don't want to hear about our lack of experience either. I see freshman playing well in the SEC and other conferences. If our players are that highly touted then we should expect them to do well also

 

[coachjohnson]

You'll get your nine wins, that is certain.

 

[NDMontana]

So let me get this straight: Michigan gift-wrapped the game for us, yet MSU 'pounded us', as you said in another thread, even though we gave them the same breaks Mich gave us. Again, you sound like a TROLL even though you claim not to be and you obviously know ND football. Sorry. You can't have it both ways. Which one is it? Did we gift-wrap the game for MSU, or did we beat Mich straight-up?

You see, the truth is MSU didn't kill us, we were down by 9 in the 4th with a chance to make it a one possession game. Our kicker missed his 2nd FG of the game, and MSU scored a late TD. We also fumbled near the goal line, and we had Kumara catch a TD only to get outmuscled in the end zone. Hardly a pounding bro. We left tons of points on the field. We lost, and I take it like a man. We didn't giftwrap the game, we just lost it. And Mich didn't giftwrap the game either...

The truth is that we put up 16 yards rushing; Javon Ringer put up over 200. Michigan turned it over SIX times, three of them deep in ND territory. We turned it over THREE times vs. MSU, once deep in our territory. So what's the basis of your comparison again?



Three ND turnovers against MSU:
TO One: Touchback. MSU takes over on their 20.
TO Two: Interception. MSU takes over on our 22. 7 points giftwrapped.
TO Three: MSU takes over on our 14.

So two of the turnovers required drives of 80 or more yards for MSU to score a TD.

Six Michigan turnovers against us:

TO One: We take over at their 11.
TO Two: We take over at their 14.
TO Three: Fumble returned 35 yards for a touchdown.
TO Four: Fumble.
TO Five: Interception at the ND 12 yard line.
TO Six: Interception.

Michigan handed us 3 TD's.

Take off one TD for MSU vs. ND: Final Score 16-7 MSU
Take off three TD for ND vs. Mich.: Final score 17-14 Michigan

You can object to this scenario. You could argue that ND would have scored two more times against MSU w/o the turnovers. MSU also had a TO kill a drive. Also, you would have to point out that Michigan would have scored at least one more against us w/o their turnovers. But hypotheticals don't count. Maybe Michigan wouldn't have scored on any of the six possessions they blew, maybe we wouldn't have scored on the TO's deep in MSU's territory. If either of those drives would have stalled do you honestly think we would have made a FG?

A troll posts irrarational and enraging comments w/out any merit to what he is saying. I'm making rational points. I'm not a cheerleader; I'm a fan who has knowledge of the game and concerns about my team. When comparing last years offensive rankings to this years it becomes obvious that there hasn't been sufficient progress. Bro.

If you want some positives, I do have some to offer: Floyd=stud, Tate=superstar, LBs and Secondary=much improved AND I think we're going to win every game from now until USC. USC game....maybe we mature, build up confidence, start knocking some people on their asses and pull off a shocker. Improbable? Maybe. Impossible? Hell No.

 

[alleycat9]

I'm sick of people being so critical when we lose a game. This team is good, not great by any means. Calling out Charlie, Jimmy, and Latina is just rediculous. What I saw on Saturday was Mike Haywood trying not to lose the game rather than trying to win it. That was our problem; we had no emotion or will to win. So when I hear all this criticizing every coach and player, I cringe. It is so annoying. Golden looked incredible, and Floyd was good too. We're not going to win every game. I love Notre Dame football, but I do not love our fans.

"trying not to lose the game rather than trying to win it. That was our problem; we had no emotion or will to win."


this is my problem right here, not trying to win, no emotion or will to win. that is UNACCEPTABLE there is absolutely no excuse for it and it needs to be corrected, you dont have to be a five star recruit to play with passion and intensity. someone needs to get it out of these kids.

 

[NDinL.A.]

NDMontana, you claim you have knowledge of the game, yet you are the same guy who said that Purdue has an excellent front 7. Bro.

All those useless numbers you threw out, you know what that's called? Around here we call that 'football'. Turnovers happen. All that nonsense about how they had turnovers in this part of the field and we had them on that part of the field and yada yada yada. IT'S CALLED FOOTBALL. It happens. Turnovers happen. Good teams take advantage. Winning teams take advantage. But your argument holds no weight, TROLL, because you say Michigan giftwrapped the game for us because of turnovers and yet we 'got pounded' by MSU even though we left TONS of points on the field. It's so funny how you conceniently ignore the fact that we could have had at least 20 points if not for turnovers and missed field goals. So, by your logic:

MSU loses 7 points because of our turnover deep in our territory, and then add 20 points to our score, and the final score is:

ND 27 - msu 16

Hmmm, I guess we did giftwrap the game for them, by your insane logic. Do you see how stupid that sounds???

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

You're not 'being realistic', you've crapped on everything, even the positives in pretty much every single one of your posts. Read my previous posts, before you joned here to trash everything ND does. I always talked about being real, being honest with your expectations. You wanting us to suddenly be incredible, for Jimmy Clausen to suddenly be a superstar (funny how you ignored my argument about redhirts for QB's in the other thread), for CW to get us to a BCS bowl NOW because we are ND, well that ain't being realistic. Sorry. It takes time. Change is a process. I can't stand the losing, HATE the poor play, but I see a lot of positives in the spots you see negatives, all because your anti-ND friends told you so. I ain't buying your act. Bro.

Again, YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

 

[JeremyND07]

Haywood's playing calling is horrible but what is he suppose to do when we cannot run to save our lives. Latina has to go soon!!!!! People that are calling this team good are in denial and need to wake up! I still say we lose to NC, USC, and one more team...4 loses with this schedule is not a good team sorry!!!!

 

[JughedJones]

"I still say we lose to NC, USC, and one more team"

Can you be a little more vague? "One more team". You really stand behind your guys huh?

 

[irish4ever]

back 2 back bcs bowls? hes pulling ND out of the hole davie and willingham put us in, and thats a pretty deep one. some pretty dumb stuff bro.

Ditto. How soon they forget!

 

[JeremyND07]

"I still say we lose to NC, USC, and one more team"

Can you be a little more vague? "One more team". You really stand behind your guys huh?

"one more team" = someone we should beat when JC has a really bad game. He is only a soph so it is expected. I think it will either be Purdue or Washington! What does being a realist have to do with standing behind my guys???

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

just wow...

the gap in attitude toward this 2008 team is obvious between the regulars around here and the newbies. this post said it all

 

[Sureal]

What's bad is that when someone is critical and voices an opinion different from the majority that person is villified. No need for name calling for difference of opinion. Criticism is good for balance. Flaming statements are good for banning. There is a difference...

Note: Where the hell did race come into the picture? Did I miss the memo?

 

[NDMontana]

NDMontana, you claim you have knowledge of the game, yet you are the same guy who said that Purdue has an excellent front 7. Bro.

You better pull up that quote because I haven't said a gdamn thing about Purdue. I haven't watched them play once. So get YOUR facts straight and then come at me.

All those useless numbers you threw out, you know what that's called? Around here we call that 'football'. Turnovers happen. All that nonsense about how they had turnovers in this part of the field and we had them on that part of the field and yada yada yada. IT'S CALLED FOOTBALL. It happens. Turnovers happen. Good teams take advantage. Winning teams take advantage. But your argument holds no weight, TROLL, because you say Michigan giftwrapped the game for us because of turnovers and yet we 'got pounded' by MSU even though we left TONS of points on the field. It's so funny how you conceniently ignore the fact that we could have had at least 20 points if not for turnovers and missed field goals.

So Michigan didn't hand us 21 points. You may be the only person I know who is going to make that contention. Yeah, it's called football, and sometimes a team completely blows a game....IT HAPPENS.

You're not 'being realistic', you've crapped on everything, even the positives in pretty much every single one of your posts. Read my previous posts, before you joned here to trash everything ND does. I always talked about being real, being honest with your expectations. You wanting us to suddenly be incredible, for Jimmy Clausen to suddenly be a superstar (funny how you ignored my argument about redhirts for QB's in the other thread), for CW to get us to a BCS bowl NOW because we are ND, well that ain't being realistic. Sorry. It takes time. Change is a process. I can't stand the losing, HATE the poor play, but I see a lot of positives in the spots you see negatives, all because your anti-ND friends told you so. I ain't buying your act. Bro.

I have shown where ND stands in offensive team rankings over three times. I never said I was expecting an NC this year. There you go putting words into my mouth again....damn you're good at that. I'm not a cheerleader. I have a clue about the game of football. Maybe you do too but being a fan doesn't mean looking for silver linings when there isn't one. When did you grow up? The Davie era? You seem comfortable with moral victories and silver linings. I have shown numbers, statistical measures of progess and there has been none, zero. Where are your numbers to back up your arguments?

 

[NDMontana]

I guess you FORGOT THIS TOO:

If you want some positives, I do have some to offer: Floyd=stud, Tate=superstar, LBs and Secondary=much improved AND I think we're going to win every game from now until USC. USC game....maybe we mature, build up confidence, start knocking some people on their asses and pull off a shocker. Improbable? Maybe. Impossible? Hell No.

You throw out theories; I throw out numbers. Numbers are used to back up theories. My theory is that we haven't made progress and I've backed it up with numbers. Your theory is that we have made progress and you back it with....your superior knowledge of the game? What you "see"? Gut feelings?

I'll start buying what you're selling when you have something more tangible than "I think" to support your points.

 

[WaveDomer]

Agree

Agree

Note: Where the hell did race come into the picture? Did I miss the memo?

Agreed. Please leave that junk off of here. And don't make leaps about posts "seeming" to be race related. That is disgusting. Also, could we please leave freaking politics out of this board? Please. Can I go nowhere, nowhere, without somebody bringing up politics or bashing Pres. Bush or whatever the heck. I can't even read sports blogs without somebody throwing politics in. If I want politics, I go to a political site. Keep in mind, you have your political beliefs and chances are about half the people reading your comment have the opposite belief. I'm not even offended by opposite views. I don't care. I just would like a political free zone somewhere in the world. Pretty soon I'm going to have to go Walden or something.

 

[NDinL.A.]

I'll keep it civil. Let's just say that you need to read my post again. I did give you numbers, that, like the rest of my points, you choose to ignore. So why give numbers at all? Look at my post again. It talks directly about how our team left points on the board in the same way Mich gave points to us. Again...YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS! I know you want to have it both ways, but if you want to be taken seriously, you can't they gave us points so that's why we won, but we lost because we got pounded. Sorry.

As for the Purdue comment, I stand corrected. You say it was someone else, and I believe you. My apologies.

I'm not the only person that says Michigan didn't hand us 21 points. I was at the game. Good teams take advantage of mistakes. ND did that. You can't stand that they did that for some reason. Both teams played in a monsoon in the 2nd half. ND didn't screw it up, Mich did. Same thing for the MSU game, except it's reversed. But that's football, I accept that, with no excuses. It happens, and we lost because of it.

Numbers are for stat-rats. I'm just not interested in numbers a lot of the time. I was an athlete, and I look at it from an athlete's perspective, not from a calculator's perspective. That's just me. There have been tons of championship teams that won despite having mediocre or poor numbers in many statistical categories. Those teams won because of heart, chemistry, excellence in certain areas, etc. See: NY Football Giants. Every stat/number in the world pointed to the Patriots winning, yet the Giants won. IT'S CALLED FOOTBALL. The patriots could sit here and say that they GAVE the Giants the gave because of turnovers or missed tackles or a helmet friggin catch or a shooting star fell the night before. It doesn't matter! Those things happen in football.

So you can throw all these stats and numbers and tell me that MSU pounded us yet Michigan gave us the gave. It doesn't matter to most athletes who have played before. Like you, I watch the game with a critical eye, just a different eye I guess.

Just like you keep ignoring my talk about Clausen in comparison with the USC QB's, I'm sure you'll ignore my points in this post as well. Whatever, nothing I can do about that.

Having said all that, ND needs to imrove big time. I'm not arguing with you on that at all. We shouldn't be satisfied. But change is a process, not a quick-fix, and despite what your numbers say, I see a lot of progress from last year, on both sides of the ball. Hopefully that will continue...

 

[NDMontana]

I'll keep it civil. Let's just say that you need to read my post again. I did give you numbers, that, like the rest of my points, you choose to ignore. So why give numbers at all? Look at my post again. It talks directly about how our team left points on the board in the same way Mich gave points to us. Again...YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS! I know you want to have it both ways, but if you want to be taken seriously, you can't they gave us points so that's why we won, but we lost because we got pounded. Sorry.

As for the Purdue comment, I stand corrected. You say it was someone else, and I believe you. My apologies.

I'm not the only person that says Michigan didn't hand us 21 points. I was at the game. Good teams take advantage of mistakes. ND did that. You can't stand that they did that for some reason. Both teams played in a monsoon in the 2nd half. ND didn't screw it up, Mich did. Same thing for the MSU game, except it's reversed. But that's football, I accept that, with no excuses. It happens, and we lost because of it.

Numbers are for stat-rats. I'm just not interested in numbers a lot of the time. I was an athlete, and I look at it from an athlete's perspective, not from a calculator's perspective. That's just me. There have been tons of championship teams that won despite having mediocre or poor numbers in many statistical categories. Those teams won because of heart, chemistry, excellence in certain areas, etc. See: NY Football Giants. Every stat/number in the world pointed to the Patriots winning, yet the Giants won. IT'S CALLED FOOTBALL. The patriots could sit here and say that they GAVE the Giants the gave because of turnovers or missed tackles or a helmet friggin catch or a shooting star fell the night before. It doesn't matter! Those things happen in football.

So you can throw all these stats and numbers and tell me that MSU pounded us yet Michigan gave us the gave. It doesn't matter to most athletes who have played before. Like you, I watch the game with a critical eye, just a different eye I guess.

Just like you keep ignoring my talk about Clausen in comparison with the USC QB's, I'm sure you'll ignore my points in this post as well. Whatever, nothing I can do about that.

Having said all that, ND needs to imrove big time. I'm not arguing with you on that at all. We shouldn't be satisfied. But change is a process, not a quick-fix, and despite what your numbers say, I see a lot of progress from last year, on both sides of the ball. Hopefully that will continue...

You posted that Notre Dame hypothetically left 20 pts. on the field against MSU. Against Michigan we scored three touchdowns resulting directly from UM turnovers. I'm not sure where you gathered all of your points left on the field idea anyway. 51 yard field goals are not points left on the field....there aren't many kickers in CFB who have that range. The 41 yard field goal, I will grant, is 3 points left on the field. The other 2 red zone possessions that resulted in turnovers may have led to as little as 6 points or as much as 14. Either way I'm still talking about absolutes in terms of scoring 21 points directly off of UM turnovers. You're dealing with hypotheticals talking about leaving points on the field.

Of course change is a process. Part of that process involves improving your teams production; it hasn't happened yet. I'll guarantee you that if we're still ranked in the 100's in offense 3 weeks from now that our record is going to be 2-5. If we were in the middle of the pack than it would be a non-issue to me but there are about 10 teams that are producing less yardage a game than us.

I think Coach is going to breakdown the film this week, realize that our o-line produces a stalemate at best when we run and open up this offense big time. Our runs will come in the form of draws which worked really well for us in '05 & '06. Running between the tackles just isn't working right now. The only other play that I would like to see out of the playbook is that quick throw out to the flankers. It worked really well with Samardzija but it isn't working anymore. I don't know if Floyd and Tate aren't stong enough to break the first tackle, which is a must, or if our opponents just know it's coming. Either way I expect some improvement this week. As posted in the Purdue thread: ND 28 Purdon't 13.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Boy do I feel like an ass. I started my last post intending it to be tongue in cheek, complete with smileys. I fully intended on editing, but I actually fell asleep before I could do so. I don't even remember clicking the submit button. I just sent SoCal a private message apologizing. I apologize to anyone offended by my silly mistake. I have been reading several posts for the last few days, and really enjoy this site. It is quickly apparent that SoCal is BOSS. I learned a lesson: Don't post past my bedtime. I wouldn't mind if SoCal or any moderator deletes the post. I am still learning how this site works. I do know that I am no good at asteroids or pacman.

 

[SoCalDomer]

done. it's easy for misunderstandings to happen on a board since tone and physical cues we're so used to using in everyday language aren't possible.

but when a misunderstanding happens, PM the person and try to clear it up. thanks for clearing that up ND.

 

[irishandy]

I am going to be fan no matter what. I want Charlie Weis to be the head coach and I want Jimmy Clausen as our quaterback. ND is not a perfect team and when there are flaws to be corrected it is a nice discussion, but hearing about Weis this and Clausen that gets old.

 

[NDinL.A.]

You posted that Notre Dame hypothetically left 20 pts. on the field against MSU. Against Michigan we scored three touchdowns resulting directly from UM turnovers. I'm not sure where you gathered all of your points left on the field idea anyway. 51 yard field goals are not points left on the field....there aren't many kickers in CFB who have that range. The 41 yard field goal, I will grant, is 3 points left on the field. The other 2 red zone possessions that resulted in turnovers may have led to as little as 6 points or as much as 14. Either way I'm still talking about absolutes in terms of scoring 21 points directly off of UM turnovers. You're dealing with hypotheticals talking about leaving points on the field.

Of course change is a process. Part of that process involves improving your teams production; it hasn't happened yet. I'll guarantee you that if we're still ranked in the 100's in offense 3 weeks from now that our record is going to be 2-5. If we were in the middle of the pack than it would be a non-issue to me but there are about 10 teams that are producing less yardage a game than us.

I think Coach is going to breakdown the film this week, realize that our o-line produces a stalemate at best when we run and open up this offense big time. Our runs will come in the form of draws which worked really well for us in '05 & '06. Running between the tackles just isn't working right now. The only other play that I would like to see out of the playbook is that quick throw out to the flankers. It worked really well with Samardzija but it isn't working anymore. I don't know if Floyd and Tate aren't stong enough to break the first tackle, which is a must, or if our opponents just know it's coming. Either way I expect some improvement this week. As posted in the Purdue thread: ND 28 Purdon't 13.

Agreed. We will get better, and that's my whole point. I don't know if we can put up 28 yet, but I sure hope we can.

As for hypotheticals, I can say everything is a hypothetical. What if Brian Smith wasn't there to pick up the fumble and run it in? But he was there, so we scored, which made it an absolute. But again, that's football. I can't for the life of me see why you can't see how you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. I gave you the numbers, which you love, and you give me some mumbo-jumbo about hypotheticals. Did we score or not? It's about scoreboard baby. Athletes know that. The final number is what counts: We beat Michigan, and we didn't want to hear excuses. MSU beat us, and I have no excuses.

This is a tired argument though, because neither of us will ever agree. Let's go get Purdue. Peace...

 

[NDMontana]

Agreed. We will get better, and that's my whole point. I don't know if we can put up 28 yet, but I sure hope we can.

As for hypotheticals, I can say everything is a hypothetical. What if Brian Smith wasn't there to pick up the fumble and run it in? But he was there, so we scored, which made it an absolute. But again, that's football. I can't for the life of me see why you can't see how you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. I gave you the numbers, which you love, and you give me some mumbo-jumbo about hypotheticals. Did we score or not? It's about scoreboard baby. Athletes know that. The final number is what counts: We beat Michigan, and we didn't want to hear excuses. MSU beat us, and I have no excuses.

This is a tired argument though, because neither of us will ever agree. Let's go get Purdue. Peace...

This argument ends here for me....you can respond to this and take the last word, it's all good. I have not once talked out both sides of my mouth. I'm not sure what you don't understand about that. Your contention is that I expect some astronomical improvement culminating in a Top 10 ranking or better. Not once, anywhere, have I said that. I'm not talking out both sides of my mouth....you're trying to open my mouth and shove words into it; not once have you posted a solid example of my alleged double talk.

You're comment about the UM TO's turning into points being a hypothetical that became absolute only because it occured is ridiculous. It's a fact that we scored 21 pts. off of their turnovers. End of story. It is impossible to prove, either way, whether ND scores a TD or FG against MSU on either of the redzone turnovers. So yes, it's a fact that Michigan gave up 21 pts. to us that required a two drives combining for 25 yards and a fumble returned for a TD that required no drive at all.

You're right though, you are not going to change my mind nor I yours. So no point in continuing the loop.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Whatever man. You're right. It's just that I forget that Michigan actually ran into their own endzone, and as they were about to cross the goal-line, they sweetly handed the ball to a ND player so he could score the TD and give us 7 points. How thoughtful of them! And they did that for us 3 times! You see, I was at the game, and for some strange reason I thought a ND player actually made a play that resulted in us scoring. Guess I was wrong. How weird!

For the last time, football players make plays. You can't have it both ways, as much as you try to rationalize. You're a numbers guy; me, not so much. If I want numbers I'll turn to CBS for "Num3ers". If I want football, I watch NBC baby. At least you're passionate (and probably just a long-winded as I am ) Peace...